Taiwan Navy News and Developments

Toptob

Active Member
Ahh you're absolutely right @Musashi_kenshin ! Although I did some digging and the underlying causes look to be more complex than just pragmatic wisdom.

https://focustaiwan.tw/cross-strait/202210120010

Overhauled frigate project unveiled - Taipei Times

Taiwan's New Domestic Frigate Project Hits Roadblock - Naval News

Taiwan Navy to equip light frigates with extended-range anti-ship missiles | Taiwan News | 2022-11-02 15:33:00

The navalnews article is most enlightening. It reports "Taiwanese media are reporting that the frigate project is not going smoothly because NCSIST has not been able to develop a compact AESA radar system for the ship" indicating that they're having some trouble with the development of high end radars for the ships.

They also quote "Dr. Hsiao-Huang Shu (舒孝煌), a research fellow at the Defense Ministry’s think tank, told LTN that large surface combatants with stronger sustainability and air surveillance capabilities are still necessary for monitoring the actions of Chinese ships, respond to Chinese gray zone conflict methods, secure sea lines of communication, dominate the sea, and exercise air superiority in the Bashi Channel and offshore eastern Taiwan. " This says to me that they still have an operational need for bigger ships .

However, the Taipei times article states " Dispatching naval vessels to monitor intruding Chinese ships has been taking a toll on the nation’s aging fleet, the ministry said, giving as an example a 50-year-old refitted Knox-class frigate, ". Well the Knox-class ships are very old, practically obsolete and should be getting very long in the tooth by now. I bet those old turbines are a pain to keep in service, and very expensive of course.

But finally the Taiwannews article refers to Navy Chief of Staff Vice Admiral Chiang Cheng-kuo: "according to the Navy official. While the Chinese ships had between 70 and 180 crew members each, Taiwan’s Navy vessels have between 200 to 300 naval staff each, revealing a considerable difference in cost, Chiang said. " And then it suddenly made a lot of sense to me! Like many others the ROC military has problems with personnel and recruitment numbers and older ships need a lot more crew than newer ones, especially American ones.

The way I see it is as follows, they where having trouble getting radars for their frigate program that was intended to replace their Kidd-class destroyers and that was presenting a roadblock for that program. So while they can't proceed anyway they redirect their funds and attention to fill another requirement they had anyway, but that could be filled with a less ambitious program... Although the timelines mentioned in the taipei times article seem plenty ambitious to me!

But this way involved parties can stay busy working on developing and completing a warship production program (assuming they don't run into the same roadblock of course), which is still a leveling up from the Tuo Chiang class corvette program for local industry. While at the same time NCSIST gets more time to develop that higher end radar. At the same time my original point still stands because the Kang Ding upgrade program will still provide important experience in (re)designing and working on a larger and high-end (at least after this upgrade) warship.

Then all relevant organizations will have experienced who have just finished 1. a completely indigenous modern surface combatant and 2. the upgrade and integration of combat systems into a medium to large modern surface combatant. And maybe even some radar engineers that got a little peek at the innards of whatever radar they end up putting on the Kang Ding's. So they'd be in a much better position to engage in producing a high end AAW or multi role surface warship program to replace the Kee Lung class AAW destroyers which will have to happen eventually, but which would also (in my opinion) benefit more from having more indigenous content than lower end program. Because I think that it will be harder to acquire higher end technology for Taiwan.

To conclude, I think the ROC navy made a pragmatic and prudent decision that addresses a number of pressing needs at the same time, and indicates an intent to maximize the value they derive from the time and money invested. It also shows that there's courage somewhere to make a turn around when it's necessary in stead of refusing to admit when you're wrong (or stuck in this case) and pressing on, only to come up with disappointing results. One of the better cases of military procurement I've seen lately!
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It might be easier to get new radars from abroad now, given some hardening of attitudes recently.

Interesting. The article states "It will have a similar appearance to Singapore’s Formidable-class frigate. The upgraded Kang Ding-class will be as capable as the Formidable-class." That's a big claim, and a big goal! It seems like it's going to take a lot of work, they're basically planning to take half the ship apart....
The ship's the same basic design & about the same size, so it's feasible. But yes, it'd take a lot of work.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
It might be easier to get new radars from abroad now, given some hardening of attitudes recently.
I've got a feeling that the countries that could sell a compact radar would see it as one of China's infamous "red lines". Or, if they are willing to sell, would charge a special "Taiwan premium" because of the lack of willing vendors.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The ship's the same basic design & about the same size, so it's feasible. But yes, it'd take a lot of work.
Not all cousins of the Formidable-class frigate have been pre-wired with the infrastructure needed for growth.

As you noted, major re-pumbling of the Kang Ding-class innards is needed. The ROC Navy provisioned a 43.1 billion New Taiwan Dollar (1.37 billion USD) budget to upgrade its 6 Kang Ding-class frigates.

Interesting. The article states "It will have a similar appearance to Singapore’s Formidable-class frigate. The upgraded Kang Ding-class will be as capable as the Formidable-class." That's a big claim, and a big goal! It seems like it's going to take a lot of work, they're basically planning to take half the ship apart.

But it looks to be an interesting program that would be a great learning opportunity for local industry, and a real step to finally designing and building that indigenous frigate/destroyer that they've been wanting for years.
Q: Is the 32-cell Hua Yang vertical launch system (華陽垂直發射系統) to house the Sea Sword II air-defense missile that are developed by NSCIST (to replace the RIM-72C Sea Chaparral SAM system) going to be as capable as the Sylver Vertical Launching System and Aster missile combo on Singapore’s Formidable-class frigate?

Ans: Typical bullsh!t by Taiwanese sources —their VL missile will not match the Aster missile’s hit-to-kill capabilities — the Hua Yang vertical launch system & Sea Sword II is closer to the MICA VL in capability.
 
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Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
On 12 May 2023 the Taiwanese Navy signed a contract with Jong Shyn Shipbuilding Group to build their first two next generation domestic 2500 ton frigates.

The current 4 destroyers and 22 Frigates of Taiwan are classified as “First class ships”, and their role is to fight the high-end battles. The new 2500-ton Frigates are classified as “Second class ships”, acting as the workhorses of the Taiwanese Navy, taking over the day-to-day patrol missions currently performed by the “First class ships” and filling the existing gap between the “First class ships” and “Third class ships”, which are the smaller Corvettes and Missile Boats.
 
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Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
On 12 May 2023 the Taiwanese Navy signed a contract with Jong Shyn Shipbuilding Group to build their first two next generation domestic 2500 ton frigates.
I see they're getting BAE's Artisan radar. I had thought it a distinct possibility, but I wasn't 100% sure whether the Foreign Office might lean on Number 10 to block the sale. Glad that it appears to have gone through, that's a good deal for Taiwan and the UK/BAE.
 

JohnWolf

Member
This is perhaps more of an Army matter, but that thread is hard to find and it really concerns a more nautical matter in any case.

Years ago I reemmber people talking about Taiwan meeting PLAN landing craft with TOW missiles, and it seemed a laughable idea to me at the time. However, I just saw a clip of a Hmmvee with a TOW launcher pull up to and open-top firing position and fire its missile out to sea. And apparently this is a thing now.

My suggestion then, as now, is Bofors guns in hardened bunkers.
The 40mm L/70 is still a widely-spread gun in use or stockpiled all over the world, and it could shred normal landing craft from thousands of meters away. It can also be aquired cheaply in all sorts of under-the-table ways. Manned by local militia, it could be a winner along the few beaches suitable for invasion.
However, I prefer the naval 57mm guns, despite the fact they would be more expensive and it is more difficult to conceal the procurement process.
The effective range vs surface targets is about 50% higher, a better AP round vs. China's new amphibious tanks/IFVs, and they now have proximity fuses for 57mm rounds.

I know that Taiwan is close to the saturation point on Defense procurement and their money is probably best spent fighting infiltration and subversion, but this does seem to be a very cost-effective way to prevent the enemy from gaining a foothold on the beaches.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I see they're getting BAE's Artisan radar. I had thought it a distinct possibility, but I wasn't 100% sure whether the Foreign Office might lean on Number 10 to block the sale. Glad that it appears to have gone through, that's a good deal for Taiwan and the UK/BAE.
And Canadian CMS 330 combat system, like Chilean & RNZN frigate upgrades.
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
This is perhaps more of an Army matter, but that thread is hard to find and it really concerns a more nautical matter in any case.

Years ago I reemmber people talking about Taiwan meeting PLAN landing craft with TOW missiles, and it seemed a laughable idea to me at the time. However, I just saw a clip of a Hmmvee with a TOW launcher pull up to and open-top firing position and fire its missile out to sea. And apparently this is a thing now.
Production and fielding of wireless "RF" TOW missiles over a decade ago removed the restriction against firing over bodies of water (when using RF missiles of course). Similarly removed the restriction of firing over power lines. RF missiles compatible with all fielded TOW systems as the transmitter is in the launch tube.
 

JohnWolf

Member
Production and fielding of wireless "RF" TOW missiles over a decade ago removed the restriction against firing over bodies of water (when using RF missiles of course). Similarly removed the restriction of firing over power lines. RF missiles compatible with all fielded TOW systems as the transmitter is in the launch tube.
Thanks.
I figured it was something like that, but my point was to try and find a more cost-effective way to chew up PLAN landing craft before they can make it to shore. Could one TOW missile take out an open-topped landing craft? While the TOW could certainly pick off any amphibious tank or IFV, I have my doubts when it comes to something like an LCU... and a hidden Bofors gun with solid overhead cover could do both.
Or.... am I missing something?
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
.. to try and find a more cost-effective way to chew up PLAN landing craft before they can make it to shore.
There is a reason why Taiwan is building a fleet of minelayers. These are passive, low cost defense to deter landings.

There are plenty of ways (e.g artillery, missiles for standoff engagements, waiting attack helicopters) to kill the landing force as they approach the beach, but it boils down to cost effectiveness, reactivity and vulnerability.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE 5:20 p.m. EST December 23, 2014

I've always wondered if ASC's LCS/SCS would make a good addition to the RAN. OR possibly, MRV to replace the Armidales........these are good, well-armed additions to the Taiwanese navy..............something LCS isn't, well-armed that is!

SUAO, Taiwan — Taiwan on Tuesday launched its largest ever missile ship Tuesday as the island strives to modernize its armed forces in response to a perceived threat from China.

The — Tuo River — is the first of its kind ever produced by Taiwan and was touted by defense minister Yen Ming as "the fastest and most powerful" in Asia.

Armed with 16 missiles including eight supersonic Hsiung-feng III (Brave Wind) anti-ship missiles, it will boost Taiwan's defense capabilities against its giant neighbor, which considers the island part of China's territory awaiting to be reunited by force if necessary.

EDITED............

Article here: Taiwan Launches Its Largest-Ever Missile Ship

Regards, BUG
Marine Jet Power will provide more engines to Lungteh Shipyard for additional Tuo Chiang Class stealth catamaran corvettes.
Besides the four MJP 850 CSU waterjets the class is also equipped with MTU 20V 4000 M93L diesel engines.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member

X (tweet) from Taiwanese defense reporter. X Rudder shown Euro influence.

There's video on ceremony from AFP in You Tube. However seems AFP block it from sharing. But the link to watch it in youtube works.


This Taiwanese media claim overall total fleet will be 8. This means as the present batch program going to be 4, then there will second batch of 4.

I have a link of the unveiling of Taiwan's first indigenous submarine — Hai Kun — but the speech is in Chinese.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
It is too far to see the detail on video. Taiwan military understandably will not going to shown the detail design. Still looking on video already make some speculate whether the design more influence by Euro or Asian.

When I see the first model come out in 2020, I thought Taiwanese using their Dutch build Sub as base design. Still after looking some comments online, I do see it is also have Japanese Submarine influence. Considering Taiwan taking several international consultants, the blend of influence more likely to happen.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
It is too far to see the detail on video. Taiwan military understandably will not going to shown the detail design.
1. Agreed, can’t tell much from the video — the speech points out the x-rudder design, that they claim to be their own improvement.

2. The 70-meter-long Hai Kun (named after a sea monster from Chinese legend) is launched during a ceremony presided over by Taiwanese President Tsai Ing-wen at a CSBC Corp. shipyard in Kaohsiung.

3. A video of the construction process. The 1st IDS cost T$49.36 billion (US$1.53 billion), uses a Lockheed Martin C2 System, & carries American made Mark 48 torpedoes.

4.Taiwan seems determined to avoid the lessons learnt by the Pentagon that occurred with the reforms made by Aston Carter (as Under Sec of Defense (A&S) & later Sec of Defense fm 2015 to 2017) & Robert Work (as Under Sec of Navy & later Deputy Sec. of Defense fm 2014 to 2017).

5. The ROC Navy has a submarine rescue agreement with the US Navy.
 
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76mmGuns

Active Member
Taiwan's new submarine class is due to take to the water for harbour trials tomorrow. The project appears to be progressing nicely, with a plan to have a second of the class in service by 2027, making for a total of four submarines in service (not including the old US ones reserved for training).
OMG this is so fast!

Needing only a short range really simplifies submarine design. (just look at Australia for comparison)

Looks like Taiwan is going to be a hard nut to crack if CCP invades- more subs, missile boats and minelayers, as well as about 220 F-16's and Abrams tanks to replace their ancient ones
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
OMG this is so fast!

Needing only a short range really simplifies submarine design. (just look at Australia for comparison)
Compared to the troubled programs like Navantia S-80 Plus or the Collins class program, this is a breeze. I am not sure if short range was really a factor as we do not have actual specs, but yes, their primary area of operations is the TW Straits.

The other probability is that this design has been worked on for a good 2 decades or more as a backup, since the sub requirement has been there since the 80s and Bush era failures confirmed the need for a local capability. So there were no major design hurdles, other than sub-systems acquisition. I do think they need more than just 8.
 
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