KAI KF-21

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Korea DAPA according to this article seems going to agree with Indonesian MinDef proposal. They also believe this payment adjustments will not hinder the realization on 48 KF-21 licensing plan in DI.

All the talk in media again confirm the problem with tech access that being used by Indonesian MinDef as reason to ask reduced payment participation. Even this will reduce the Tech Access, seems some officials in Indonesian MinDef accept this, as they believe what they are having access too already limited. The incident with couple DI Engineers in the program seems being one of main trigger lately.

As being put on previous post, at least this seems going to reach agreement to settle this drama. Indonesian officials seems not really think it will damage Indonesian reputation, as they're now put possition that the level of tech access not justified previous number of Investment.

Korean seems going to accept this for hope it will keep Indonesia as users of KF-21. As the dispute now on participation for Program development, and separate with productions agreement.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Korea DAPA according to this article seems going to agree with Indonesian MinDef proposal. They also believe this payment adjustments will not hinder the realization on 48 KF-21 licensing plan in DI.

All the talk in media again confirm the problem with tech access that being used by Indonesian MinDef as reason to ask reduced payment participation. Even this will reduce the Tech Access, seems some officials in Indonesian MinDef accept this, as they believe what they are having access too already limited. The incident with couple DI Engineers in the program seems being one of main trigger lately.

As being put on previous post, at least this seems going to reach agreement to settle this drama. Indonesian officials seems not really think it will damage Indonesian reputation, as they're now put possition that the level of tech access not justified previous number of Investment.

Korean seems going to accept this for hope it will keep Indonesia as users of KF-21. As the dispute now on participation for Program development, and separate with productions agreement.
Well hopefully this drama will come to an end soon. It will be already nice if in the end Indonesia is able to build the KF-X under licence.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
It will be already nice if in the end Indonesia is able to build the KF-X under licence.
Under license manufacturing of KF-21 actually at this moment are more ROK concern rather then Indonesia. Despite some trashy talks to Indonesia continue delaying payment by ROK forrumers and media pundits, some of more level headed pundits acknowledge KF-21 program need Indonesia 48 order.

What they are concerning right now is if Frenchie/Dasault then approach Indonesian MinDef offering more attractive packages for licensing Rafale. It doesn't mean they already offering that, but it can happen. Thus this is why ROK try to get deal for Indonesian order.

That deal is more important then Indonesian delay payment for KF-21 development. Question will be what ROK and Indonesia try to agree on. Indonesia so far asside junior partner also the only customer outside ROK for KF-21.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
KF-21 program need Indonesia 48 order.
But why?

If it is about having sufficient orders, ROKAF alone would order more than 100 to replace their F-5s/F-4s. In parallel, they have export potential with the KF-21, notably with ME countries frustrated by US refusal to give access to F-35 or existing customers like Thailand (also having F-35 rejection), Philippines, Malaysia.

The 48 KF-21ID isn't 100% guranteed; a lot of things can change due to administration and politics since this will be second half of this decade, earliest. The bet that ID will keep the order if it KAI would be willing to accept Indonesian cuts in the program is something I won't make.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Because at this moment, it is still the only export order ROK DAPA has in pipeline. As I already put, the Indonesian order can still be moved to other fighters (ie Rafale), but so far it is that still in export pipeline status.

Getting launch export customer is not easy. Look how long Rafale can get more export order after Egypt as launch export customer. Even got Egypt as launch export is long struggle for Dasault. At least at this moment Indonesia still 'seems' say yes to become first export as part Junior partner status.

Korean Media and pundits already talks on export order from Poland, UAE, Thailand, Malaysia or Philippines. However so far they are still potential. Thus as business view, their 'potential' order still below Indonesian order on the certainty sides.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
But maybe there is a possibility that the amount of 48 KF-21 will be cut to less, because of the unwillingness by the government to pay for all of them. Or maybe some of those 48 KF-21 will be converted to T-50i/FA-50.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Yes the deal can still have several possibilities of outcome; can be ordered as plan (48 with license agreement), can be reduce without license manufacturing, can be switched to FA-50 or F-50, or can be altogether cancelled.

Still until ROK can get more export order, or potentially other Junior Partner, they still stuck with Indonesia, including Indonesian bargaining. Rumours also talk ROK wiling to consider Indonesia reduce payment and portion, but not as steep as Indonesia ask. They're wiling to consider 50% reduction from 20% portion to 10%. However they want to lock Indonesia especially Prabowo's commitment (as next administration) for that 48 order.

So, it's still in bargaining, but perhaps hopefully it is closer to end deal after all (for the sake ending this drama). Problem (again this is my opinion) when SBY administration close to end, ROK not doing enough lobby to Jokowi's camp. Seems now they're learning on Indonesian politics more, and try to deal with Prabowo's camp also. At least they already knows Prabowo as defense minister.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Meanwhile KF-21 continue with it's trial program, and reported already exceed Mach 1.8.


Also it's reported successful live fire meteor missile. So far I haven't found Video shown that. Last year there're video on life fire for IRIS-T missile, and release of dummy meteor missile.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Yes the deal can still have several possibilities of outcome; can be ordered as plan (48 with license agreement), can be reduce without license manufacturing, can be switched to FA-50 or F-50, or can be altogether cancelled.

Still until ROK can get more export order, or potentially other Junior Partner, they still stuck with Indonesia, including Indonesian bargaining. Rumours also talk ROK wiling to consider Indonesia reduce payment and portion, but not as steep as Indonesia ask. They're wiling to consider 50% reduction from 20% portion to 10%. However they want to lock Indonesia especially Prabowo's commitment (as next administration) for that 48 order.

So, it's still in bargaining, but perhaps hopefully it is closer to end deal after all (for the sake ending this drama). Problem (again this is my opinion) when SBY administration close to end, ROK not doing enough lobby to Jokowi's camp. Seems now they're learning on Indonesian politics more, and try to deal with Prabowo's camp also. At least they already knows Prabowo as defense minister.
Do you think this overview/tabel is reliable and correct?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Until 2023 I believe it is quite reliable, as also back by official source. So far the X account owner compile from sources that can be collaborate. I found the account owner not some over stated enthusiasts like many in local forums or online accounts. He's quite responsible with the data, like Keris FB.

However for the 2024 number, even the X account owner still doubted the source. I do hear rumours from finance people that the budget for installment payment already prepared for this year.

Perhaps the bargain still going on, as Indonesia rumours want to reduce their development sharing from 20% to 10%. However with commitment to continue order 48 KF-21. This as some in bureaucracy circles 'rumours' see on becoming under license developer later on not much difference whether owning 10% or 20% ownership of the program.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Seems ROK finally taking more direct standing with Indonesia. Either pay out, or out, and out in here means out as Junior Partner. However DAPA head also indicating the calculation will include potential commitment from Indonesia to 48 IFX (KF-21 Indonesian version).

Thus all will be calculated base how much Indonesia wiling to pay, if it is only 1/3 of the development costs, it is also related to how much access tech going to be open. On the potential tech file illegal access by two Indonesian engineers, got impression it is also going to be part of negotiations.

Either way, somehow I see this as answer to Indonesian MinDef negotiations, that seems trying to find way out from this KDrama vs IDrama. Indonesia always talk on financial difficulties, when at same time deal with Dasault and potential Boeing which values multiple times then overall Indonesia commitment to KF-21.

Seems some 'voices' that 'whisper' it is better to involve with Dasault or even Boeing value chain (then KAI), also gaining momentum within Indonesia side. Something that's debatable, however seems increasingly find the 'proper' ear to influence Indonesian move. DAPA Chief is right on one thing though, when your partner trying to renegotiate, then renegotiate on stronger points.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group


New chapter on KFX/KF-21 program officially launch. The first batch of 20 KF-21 Blk 1 is put in the amount of USD 1.4 bio. Not clear yet whether the deal of KRW 556 bio (+/-USD 390 mio) for Hanwha Aero in supply 40 license build F414 engine include in that calculation. However as seems KAI and Hanwha sign separate deal, I suspect the calculation also separate. Thus means the overall deal close to USD 1.8 bio.

Quite reasonable calculation for 20 Gen 4.5 fighters this days.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
New variant designation

KF-21EA - 2 seater (KF-21/B) configured for SEAD/DEAD missions
KF-21EX - with internal weapons bay, EOTS. Probably the old Blk 2
KF-21SA - Export variant. Unclear if this is a old Blk 1 or just an general designation to cover all export variants.

 
The KF-21 Boramae has just entered the mass production phase.

 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
The KF-21 Boramae has just entered the mass production phase.
It is more LRIP rather before it moves into full rate production. The first flight was only in 2022.

I enclose a link to the acquisition report for the Super Hornet. From the first flight in 1995, it took 5 years before a full rate production contract was issued. What happened in-between were:

DT - Developmental Testing
DT&E - Developmental Test and Evaluation
IOC - Initial Operational Capability
IOT&E - Initial Operational Test and Evaluation
LRIP - Low Rate Initial Production
OPEVAL - Operational Evaluation
OT - Operational Testing

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Hanwha show case their indigenous engine for KF-21. Basically this is the engine they are going to use as GE414 replacement. Potentially this is going to be GE414 derivative, alltough they are not close option for other engine makers (whether RR, PW or Safran) to join.

Still with Hanwha already have license for GE414, most likely that's what they are going to build toward. The specs seems shown this will be slightly lighter then GE414, but not much. As KF-21 build on engine on that class.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

KAI try to find other export market. Philippines being talk, also a middle east customer. Flight Global article above indicating Iraq as potential, due to already existing KAI customer with FA-50. Other speculation that I read on ROK forum and defense blog talk about UAE.

In short KAI try to find potential KF-21 customers from their existing FA-50 customers. The article talk about KAI and DAPA officials try to get commitment from KFX 'flimsy' Junior Partner. The talk on domestic licensing production clearly in the agenda.

Still as I put in my previous post (which the above article also indicating that), KAI very aware on Dasault move toward Indonesian procurement. In my opinion Indonesia room to finance KF-21 (or IF-21) depends not on Dasault order, but on Boeing order. 24 F-15EX or 48 KF/IF-21. Unless Indonesia next administration are willing to give more financing for Defense procurement, the choices seems like that.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hanwha show case their indigenous engine for KF-21. Basically this is the engine they are going to use as GE414 replacement. Potentially this is going to be GE414 derivative, alltough they are not close option for other engine makers (whether RR, PW or Safran) to join.

Still with Hanwha already have license for GE414, most likely that's what they are going to build toward. The specs seems shown this will be slightly lighter then GE414, but not much. As KF-21 build on engine on that class.
This is a good plan. There may be others interested in an improved GE414, such as existing super hornet customers. I believe this engine should also fit in the KA-50. Even if the new engine is never fitted to the existing superhornets, being fairly common, will make it easier to transition and support. Also if the engine has any development issues the GE414 is already there.

In short KAI try to find potential KF-21 customers from their existing FA-50 customers. The article talk about KAI and DAPA officials try to get commitment from KFX 'flimsy' Junior Partner. The talk on domestic licensing production clearly in the agenda.
I think the middle east is a viable area. While the KF-21 competes with TIA TF project, some would prefer a path other than Turkey. Korea still has quite good relations with the US, so that is seen as a huge advantage.

I think the biggest issue with this project currently is Indonesia. Who needs to decide to fully commit, or fully get out, and the Koreans need to decide if they want the Indonesians in or out. At this stage is undermines the whole program.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
I believe this engine should also fit in the KA-50.
FA-50 I believe use GE-404, thus as this is basically GE-414 derivative, then it will be bigger in diameter. Although I also read some speculation in Korean Defense Blogs like Bemil Chosun on F-50 (the plan single seater FA-50 derivative) will use similar engine with KF-21.


think the biggest issue with this project currently is Indonesia. Who needs to decide to fully commit, or fully get out, and the Koreans need to decide if they want the Indonesians in or out. At this stage is undermines the whole program.
That's I agree, and problem with Indonesia in my opinion back to one underlying basic question, what to expect on Aerospace Industry development. Whether involve with Fast Jets development or step by step development on Civilian Turboprop Airliners.

I have been attack in this forum before or other forums by few over nationalistic Indonesian, on the stage and conditions of Indonesian Aerospace Industry. Yes Indonesia has Aircraft Manufacturers, but Indonesia doesn't have developed production chains to support the industry domestically. In fact on the matter of Aerospace supply chain, Singapore and Malaysia are more developed then Indonesia on that matter.

If you have Airframes manufacturer however without strong domestic supply chain, and the result will be the same on every Industry. Your manufacturer will be inefficient and expensive to develop.

In sense Indonesian SOE officials seems understand that, and (at least on paper) the N219 will be develop with more supporting suppliers domestically. However when you enter more complex Airframes like KF-21, then either you are only involve on assembly by licensing agreement or involve with getting in part of the overall supply chains. The problem is politically Indonesian politicians want to have both but with limited investment.

That's the core of problem in Indonesia, confusions on too much expectations or limited expectations (thus limited investment) from this project. Thus I sense for several years (especially during Jokowi's administration), confusion on what should be expected from participation in this KFX program. When you're confuse, then what most happen is you decided to delayed as much as possible on your commitment.

I suspect ROK and KAI wait until Prabowo's administration take over from Jokowi's ones. Then they Will decide whether continue or cut loose Indonesia on the projects.


Indonesia has the potential to add FA-50s to its existing fleet of T-50 trainers – the jet from which the FA-50 is derived. Initially, Jakarta could obtain 10-12 examples to replace BAE Systems Hawks and Northrop F-5s, but this number could ultimately grow to 40 aircraft.
Put this on Indonesian AF thread before, but put it here, as I also heard sometime back on potential Indonesia choose to licensing FA-50 as way put to ROK from KF-21. Seems now some media already indicating that.

In my opinion the biggest threat for KF-21 in export is FA-50. If they put that Hanwha new GE414 derivative on FA-50 or F-50, then most Global South market potentially will take that, instead KF-21.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
FA-50 I believe use GE-404, thus as this is basically GE-414 derivative, then it will be bigger in diameter. A...
Other way round. The GE F404 came first, & powers the F-18A to D. A slightly more powerful derivative, the Volvo RM12, is fitted to the JAS39A to D. The F404-IN20, fitted to the Tejas Mk-1A, is more powerful still. FA-50 has the basic variant, though as you say, an F414 version has been put forward for it.

The GE F414 is a more powerful derivate of the F404, fitted to the F-18E & JAS39E.

According to GE they all have the same length & maximum diameter, but from other sources the F414 has a slightly wider inlet. GE says it has 16% more airflow than the basic F404.
F404
F414
 
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