Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[MickB]

The Constellation will use a 57mm gun (Mk110, a rebadged Bofors 57 mod3) so it is becomming more common, even on larger ships. I think it fits into the Constellation armament as an inner circle low cost anti boat and drone system. It's good for about 8-10km and leaves the more expensive RIM116 for close in missile threats, and ESSM,SM2/SM6 for the longer distance stuff.

Probably a good option for asymetic or swarm threat environments such as the Red Sea or for general purpose requirements such as piracy, force protection, bording and the like.

I think the USN went the 57mm for the Constellations as it is already in their system, being used on the LCS and across the Coastguard. And for the low end threat (drones, boats etc) it is just as good as the larger 76mm gun. No need to go for the extra expense of the larger calibre.

The 127mm gun is good for about 25 km, and aligns more with strike capability (albeit close in shore bombardment). Good for stuff where a Tomahawk or NSM is overkill as they are a lot cheaper per shell and there is a lot more onboard (in the hundreds of shells). Perhaps useful in cleaning up an island where an NSM had earlier destroyed the anti ship defence and you can get within range. Or support to an amphibious team landing to keep an enemy at distance.

In the late stage of a battle, when missiles have been depleted or in short supply on both sides (a real possibility), then the 127mm gun becomes an anti ship weapon. Eventually gun fights become knife fights if they go on long enough, and the 127mm has a long blade (potentially a confusing metaphore, my apologies).

Aparently it is possible to launch a 127mm shell at an aircraft. Some shells are proximity rather than contact fused. Wanna be a good shot, but would unlikely need a second one. I'm not thinking this is its ideal purpose though and is a bit of a hail Mary option.

An old WEEO friend of mine once let me know that back in the day before ESSM and when the ANZACs only had two fire channels, the 5 inch gun could be used as a sea skimming missile defence by firing into the water in front of it to create a water shield. Never saw it and unsure how useful it would be, but I could well imagine it would put up a big splash.

I still like the inclusion of the 5 incher. Its a usefull baseball bat.

I think it pairs really well with a smaller calibre gun in the 30-57mm range for the best of both worlds.

NGS and some AA and anti shipping may be the primary uses of the 5in at the moment, but one also has to also look at potential future developments such as improved AA (the US has used 155mm guns to shoot down drones in tests), HVPs and the Kingfisher gun launched ASW depth charge.

All good reasons to keep the 5in.

 

[d-ron84]

CDT teams, "Joint" positions, staff allocated to CASG. The Australian Submarine Agency and on and on it goes...

NSSG, FSU, RMC's, Industry Outplacements, and that's just the Techo's.
You also have Port Services, PTI's, Communicators, etc.

 

[Meriv90]

NGS and some AA and anti shipping may be the primary uses of the 5in at the moment, but one also has to also look at potential future developments such as improved AA (the US has used 155mm guns to shoot down drones in tests), HVPs and the Kingfisher gun launched ASW depth charge.

All good reasons to keep the 5in.

Couldn't agree more. The kingfisher will be a total game changer if BAE is able to deliver.
And the AA improvement IMHO sooner or later will come trough hyper velocity rounds from the US, an improved version of the DART from Leonardo.

Just in case also the japanese are developing AA ability for 155mm artillery

Japan Develops 155mm Anti-Aircraft System to Combat UAVs

The Japanese Ministry of Defense allocated funding for the development of a universal 155mm gun system to combat attack drones

mil.in.ua

 

[StevoJH]

Could always take a big chunk out of the Coal depot at Kooragang and the adjacent lot when it’s gone.

Isn't the site of the former Newcastle Steelworks still largely vacant?

That is a huge empty site north of Selwyn St in Mayfield.

Fairly sure its owned by the NSW Government as well, unless someone bought it when they asked for EOI in 2022.

 

[Reptilia]

Isn't the site of the former Newcastle Steelworks still largely vacant?

That is a huge empty site north of Selwyn St in Mayfield.

Fairly sure its owned by the NSW Government as well, unless someone bought it when they asked for EOI in 2022.

Correct. That site could be developed + across the water at Koogragang in the future.
(Eg Mayfield North sustainment yard, Koogarang naval base.)

 

[SammyC]

I thought I would share this u-tube video of one of the MEKO A200s, I think this is one of the Algerian versions.

It's my new favourite, simply because of the awesome rooster tail using the water jet. I want one of those.

 

[hauritz]

The Meko design has a lot going for it. While the government has a minimum change policy with this new frigate you have to wonder what that exactly means when you look at the Meko. It is a modular design and inherently meant to be flexible.

You have to wonder if they could simply offer an updated version of the current ANZAC class incorporating all of the TransCap modifications.

Apart from the different engine configuration and updates to other systems you have to wonder if the internal layout is that much different to the current ANZACs.

 

[Reptilia]

A200
pros are probably range, large main gun, space for secondary gun or dew, room for 16 nsm or adaptable deck launcher, proof of design with 9 in service.
cons probably cost, crew 120-140, no stern ramp, unique propulsion system with added waterjet, likely not as quiet as the Chungnam(electric drive) or the Mogami(ASW designed hull), possibly more complex build.

 

[iambuzzard]

A200
pros are probably range, large main gun, space for secondary gun or dew, room for 16 nsm or adaptable deck launcher, proof of design with 9 in service.
cons probably cost, crew 120-140, no stern ramp, unique propulsion system with added waterjet, likely not as quiet as the Chungnam(electric drive) or the Mogami(ASW designed hull), possibly more complex build.

As a layman with no experience or knowledge I'm leaning towards the FFM (upgraded Mogami). It has the 127mm plus 32 VLS cells. The Japanese yards should be able to speed up the tempo to get our 3 hulls in the water quickly if we choose them. The important thing is whatever we choose in my opinion must have strike length Mk.41 for flexibilty. Otherwise the GPFs will be virtually air defence only. With 16 cells you are restricted to up to 64 ESSM. With 32 cells your options for adding strike munitions are greatly enhanced.

 

[Going Boeing]

I thought I would share this u-tube video of one of the MEKO A200s, I think this is one of the Algerian versions.

It's my new favourite, simply because of the awesome rooster tail using the water jet. I want one of those.

I was regularly told that rooster tails are energy being wasted and are a consequence of poor design. A vessel with the smallest wake is considered the most efficient and this is the design element in Austal’s Independence class LCS where the wake created by the outer hulls cancels out the wake created by the centre hull.

 

[SammyC]

I was regularly told that rooster tails are energy being wasted and are a consequence of poor design. A vessel with the smallest wake is considered the most efficient and this is the design element in Austal’s Independence class LCS where the wake created by the outer hulls cancels out the wake created by the centre hull.

Absolutely they are a waste of energy. But they look good.

Reminds me of doing blockies through the CBD in an old cortina with mag wheels, fluffy dice and a sub woofer. It's just the definition of cool.

 

[StingrayOZ]

With 32 cells your options for adding strike munitions are greatly enhanced.

The issue is in European ships, this is a large destroyer/frigate type ship. German F 124, Dutch air warfare frigates, French/Italian frigates/destroyers. UK Type 26.. We might as well start another Hunter frigate construction site.

I don't think these will be used as TLAM launching platforms. That is an expensive capability, that is usually reserved for large units. By adding that capability, you make the ship a valuable early target. TLAM is a dated missile, Its strength is range and being launched in huge volleys by larger ships.

I can live with tier 2 being tactical only, as that is the function of a tier 2 vessel. ESSM, SM-2, ASROC type stuff. Not being able to fire tlam, SM-6 or SM-3 isn't a huge loss for this particular platform.

Australia's TLAM strike capability is niche, particularly against something like the Chinese. Subs and Destroyer only IMO. We have significant long range strike with our aircraft like Superhornets and P8, firing LRASM.

A p8 can carry 4 LRASM, and a P8 has a 7000km range unrefuelled. So even if a Tier 2 is pretty far away, we can still chuck strike warheads all over our region. On ship is really for out of region, contested airspace stuff. They will still have NSM, so if the enemy takes over or setups a high value site in our region, there is something for that immediately on ship.

The Japanese are going to fit improved Type 12 missiles to Mogami, which have a range of 400-1000km and stealthy.

Japan accelerates Type 12 deployment

The Japan Ministry of Defense (MoD) has accelerated the deployment of the upgraded Type 12 surface-to-ship missile (SSM) by a year, the MoD said in a press release in...

www.janes.com

Japan to conduct live missile firing on Australia's shores

Visiting members of Japan's Self Defence Force will this week conduct live firing of its most advanced anti-ship missile in Jervis Bay south of Sydney, ahead of large-scale international military exercises in Queensland.

www.abc.net.au

These may be in box launchers rather than VLS.

There will be tremendous pressure to basically order as is, with the fastest delivery date. Even the Koreans think the Japanese have this, as Japan was a national proposal, involving the entire nations capabilities.

The Japanese just delivered their 9th Mogami and commissioned their 6th.

Japan launches ninth Mogami-class frigate

Japanese shipbuilder Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) has launched the ninth Mogami-class guided-missile frigate on order for the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force...

www.janes.com

Its that kind of tempo that get the blood pumping, ships being delivered so fast the question is can you commission them quick enough.

 

[devo99]

As a layman with no experience or knowledge I'm leaning towards the FFM (upgraded Mogami). It has the 127mm plus 32 VLS cells. The Japanese yards should be able to speed up the tempo to get our 3 hulls in the water quickly if we choose them. The important thing is whatever we choose in my opinion must have strike length Mk.41 for flexibilty. Otherwise the GPFs will be virtually air defence only. With 16 cells you are restricted to up to 64 ESSM. With 32 cells your options for adding strike munitions are greatly enhanced.

I'm still highly dubious about these designs which have gone completely unmentioned in anything but public speculation such us MEKO A210 and the upgraded 30FFM design. The only designs we know are being considered are the listed exemplars. The pattern they follow is being capable of fitting 16 VLS cells and not 32. I don't see much to be disappointed about when we would be replacing 8 frigates totalling 64 VLS cells with 11 frigates totalling 176 VLS cells. The light frigate operational concept which led to the Anzac-class is still relevant and something armed like a Hunter-class clearly doesn't fit it so I'm quite happy to see the RAN heading towards replacing the FFGs and FFHs separately instead of trying to put all the pressure on the Hunter-class to do both jobs.

 

[76mmGuns]

Absolutely they are a waste of energy. But they look good.

Reminds me of doing blockies through the CBD in an old cortina with mag wheels, fluffy dice and a sub woofer. It's just the definition of cool.

Totally off topic but my parents had a Cortina when I was a wee little one. Apparently I'd been naughty when I was 4 or 5 and used the car cigarette lighter to burn several circles in the glove box door.

Ok, back on topic- I'm really surprised both new Spanish supply ships are out of action. It made me wonder how useful Australia really is an as ally. Usually other allies would cover this discrepancy, as Aust and NZ has covered the US and others before, but both being out of action seems quite in the face, to me. I really wish I could time travel 15 years to see the much larger RAN.

 

[old faithful]

I'm still highly dubious about these designs which have gone completely unmentioned in anything but public speculation such us MEKO A210 and the upgraded 30FFM design. The only designs we know are being considered are the listed exemplars. The pattern they follow is being capable of fitting 16 VLS cells and not 32. I don't see much to be disappointed about when we would be replacing 8 frigates totalling 64 VLS cells with 11 frigates totalling 176 VLS cells. The light frigate operational concept which led to the Anzac-class is still relevant and something armed like a Hunter-class clearly doesn't fit it so I'm quite happy to see the RAN heading towards replacing the FFGs and FFHs separately instead of trying to put all the pressure on the Hunter-class to do both jobs.

Except......we still don't know if we are even getting 11 frigates, or how many cells they may or may not have.
This grouping together a total of 176 cells v 64 cells statistic type comparison really is not even worth talking about. 1 ship with 16 cells is enough to protect one or 2 ships in self defence only, it still is not really a very useful platform if it is just a self protected frigate that does not bring much to a fight. NSMs have a small range (by modern standards) and with a 125kg warhead, is really only useful as an anti ship weapon at relatively close range.
It could be useful as an anti sub ship, however, if some of the cells are fitted with ASROC, and with a Seahawk on board. Not sold on 16 cells being of huge help really. I think 8 FFgs with 32 cells would be better than 11 with 16, if we even get 11.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I'm still highly dubious about these designs which have gone completely unmentioned in anything but public speculation such us MEKO A210 and the upgraded 30FFM design. The only designs we know are being considered are the listed exemplars. The pattern they follow is being capable of fitting 16 VLS cells and not 32. I don't see much to be disappointed about when we would be replacing 8 frigates totalling 64 VLS cells with 11 frigates totalling 176 VLS cells. The light frigate operational concept which led to the Anzac-class is still relevant and something armed like a Hunter-class clearly doesn't fit it so I'm quite happy to see the RAN heading towards replacing the FFGs and FFHs separately instead of trying to put all the pressure on the Hunter-class to do both jobs.

The FFM project is nearly complete. The last ships are being finished off. All resources are moving to the new ships. Supplies, items and contracts are largely completed. The line isn't "hot" anymore for new orders. The window for that project, again IMO, is closed. Indonesia signed a deal way back in 2020 for their Mogami. If we wanted Mogami Batch I, we would need a time machine. Unless we can convince the Indonesians to give up their Japanese ships.

Time moves on. The door was left open to manufacturers to offer, what ever they considered the most viable alternative. The current state of the new project means resources can be reallocated and reordered at existing negotiated and current contracted prices. This is huge. This probably saves ~3 years of the project. This is all the paper work, tenders, ordering, logistics, supply specing that goes into a ship.

I know everyone worries about welding up bits of steel in a big hall. But ship construction, and construction in general, is way, way, way more than that. Like a road, the laying of the concrete is a mere blip and one of the simpliest parts of the project. Approvals, contracts, subcontracts, quality, delivery dates, sourcing, approvals, etc can take longer than the physical building.

Ordering the same stuff as the Japanese doesn't just mean we get added to their order, it means we can grab their equipment and ship from the order que as spec, like we do with US planes, which is why often they are exactly US spec right down to the paint colour and markings. The Transfer often occurs after they are built.

 

[devo99]

Except......we still don't know if we are even getting 11 frigates, or how many cells they may or may not have.

We can only go off what Government and Defence have said about the number of ships which is and has only been consistently 11.
As for the number of cells, by this point the five selected shipbuilders have put in their build plans or otherwise missed the three week deadline that was set in the approach to market last month.
It would be highly surprising if four of those shipbuilders weren't TKMS, Mitsubishi, Navantia and HHI. Of the "exemplar" (definition: a typical example or instance) designs named from those four shipbuilders all four of them are designed to fit 16 Mk41 sized VLS cells and three are distinctly limited to that many. This tells me everything I need to know as far as I'm concerned.
I'll leave the matter of whether 16 VLS cells is enough up to the experienced and accomplished RADM Hughes and the rest of Navy Capability. Whatever the case, the idea that the last three Hunter-class frigates were cancelled to make way for a new seperate class of frigates so similarly armed will always be a hard sell for me since it just looks like a silly and redundant complication where we would have just built more Hunters instead.

 

[devo99]

The FFM project is nearly complete. The last ships are being finished off. All resources are moving to the new ships. Supplies, items and contracts are largely completed. The line isn't "hot" anymore for new orders. The window for that project, again IMO, is closed. Indonesia signed a deal way back in 2020 for their Mogami. If we wanted Mogami Batch I, we would need a time machine. Unless we can convince the Indonesians to give up their Japanese ships.

And this tells me more that the Japanese option as a whole is closing not that 30FFM (Mogami) is simply swapping out for it's successor design. There is no official grounds for speculation that the RAN has any interest in the FMF-AAW design (often referred to as FFM here).
Slightly unrelated but the Indonesians never made it past an expression of interest so they have no ships to give up.

 

[StingrayOZ]

And this tells me more that the Japanese option as a whole is closing not that 30FFM (Mogami) is simply swapping out for it's successor design. There is no official grounds for speculation that the RAN has any interest in the FMF-AAW design (often referred to as FFM here).

I don't really have much to go on, other than the other bidders were highly impressed with the Japanese. They pulled out all stops. They are down to really, really, REALLY impress. This would be a huge high profile win for them and their entire defence industry.

I also don't think the RAN Is making the assessment, the RAN indicated all 4 were doable. It seems to be more focused on industrial capability than military. There aren't a lot of uniforms to look after new projects.

looking at the current state of play:

• Navantia has made multiple offers, include proposals that were assessed by RAND. They went nowhere at least publically. Their offer is as far removed from existing ships as the 30FFM is from its successor. We have multiple ships from them out of the water currently. TBH I think they were happy to be concidered as meeting the requirement from a design perspective. There are also industrial questions. But the spanish were talking national commitment, but Spain isn't a mega powerhouse, it has a similar industrial base as Australia.
• Korean media seems to accept the fact that the Japanese put together a more cohesive bid, not just from a single company like Hanwa, but from the entire country, with multiple technologies. Their attempt to buy Austal now seems like a hail mary. One which the Americans knocked on the head. They also don't have a huge footprint here, yet. That is changing.
• The Germans, have been very quiet. It isn't clear if they had the yard capacity or the ready to go design. Again, they didn't seem to be anything more than an interest from a single german company, not a whole national commitment. There doesn't seem to be any messaging about the German navy prepared to give build slots to someone else. Being the builder of the Anzacs originally, it makes sense to throw them in the mix, even if they aren't particularly well timed for this new project.

Again the platform is almost irrelevant. What is being assessed is the build program and the industrial capability, all four were deemed worthy enough, it is simply down to industrial capacity to deliver. There won't be much of a break down platform by platform. Maybe some benchmarking. We will be at the mercy of what ever the existing builders are doing and what can be built in time. There is no real special order for Australia for the first few ships, its about what is already in the pipeline.

We may have two or three Anzacs out of the water next year, and a hobart. The AOR may be fixed by then.. Talking about VLS is fairly pointless, if we don't have any ships at all.

Slightly unrelated but the Indonesians never made it past an expression of interest so they have no ships to give up.

Its unclear if the Japanese had perhaps put material aside for this possibility, for extra Japan or someone else, or the level of commonality between the old and new Mogamis. The Japanese tend to be super opaque about such things, but I also think such things are unlikely, the Japanese knew there would be an new class, there was no reason to order ahead for this build. But you are right, the media reports that Indonesia was to acquire Mogami are and were totally false. Despite some reports saying they signed a commitment to buy.

Until capability is delivered, we should all be very skeptical and very open to various possibilities. As we saw with the attack class, anything, absolutely can happen.

 

[devo99]

Until capability is delivered, we should all be very skeptical and very open to various possibilities. As we saw with the attack class, anything, absolutely can happen.

This I will agree with you on. Especially if as little thought goes into actual platform capability as you suggest which isn't a possibility I'd thought about honestly. It'd be pretty disappointing if things have gotten so bad that fleet planning and capability has to be thrown out the window in order to get new ships into service in time.