Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
The Japanese build schedule is on Japanese wiki

Commissioning
FFM 6 June 2024
FFM 7 December 2024
FFM 8 March 2025
FFM 9 December 2025
FFM 10 March 2026
FFM 11 December 2026
FFM 12 March 2027 - Last of the Batch 1 built from early 2024/mid 2024.
(Batch 2)
FFM 13 March 2028 - First of the Batch 2 built from late 2024/early 2025.
FFM 14 December 2028
12 new FFM planned.

Hopefully we can get 1 of the First 4 (Batch 2) but that’s a big ask.
 

iambuzzard

Active Member
The Japanese build schedule is on Japanese wiki

Commissioning
FFM 6 June 2024
FFM 7 December 2024
FFM 8 March 2025
FFM 9 December 2025
FFM 10 March 2026
FFM 11 December 2026
FFM 12 March 2027 - Last of the Batch 1 built from early 2024/mid 2024.
(Batch 2)
FFM 13 March 2028 - First of the Batch 2 built from late 2024/early 2025.
FFM 14 December 2028
12 new FFM planned.

Hopefully we can get 1 of the First 4 (Batch 2) but that’s a big ask.
Fingers crossed. I think it's the best option.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
What gets me is that, according to their website, there are more than 16,000 people in the RAN. What are they all doing? That’s the most we’ve had in the 50+ years I’ve been associated with it, yet we seem to have less people actually at sea. In the 70s it was more than 6,000 from a total of, if I remember correctly a little over 15,000. Now, we can’t get more than something between 3 and 4 thousand from 16,000? Sounds like priorities might be a little skewed.
Auditors. Procedure writers. Safety trainers. Compliance. All the things that did not have as much focus or obligation as today. Red tape distributors.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
We can only go off what Government and Defence have said about the number of ships which is and has only been consistently 11.
As for the number of cells, by this point the five selected shipbuilders have put in their build plans or otherwise missed the three week deadline that was set in the approach to market last month.
It would be highly surprising if four of those shipbuilders weren't TKMS, Mitsubishi, Navantia and HHI. Of the "exemplar" (definition: a typical example or instance) designs named from those four shipbuilders all four of them are designed to fit 16 Mk41 sized VLS cells and three are distinctly limited to that many. This tells me everything I need to know as far as I'm concerned.
I'll leave the matter of whether 16 VLS cells is enough up to the experienced and accomplished RADM Hughes and the rest of Navy Capability. Whatever the case, the idea that the last three Hunter-class frigates were cancelled to make way for a new seperate class of frigates so similarly armed will always be a hard sell for me since it just looks like a silly and redundant complication where we would have just built more Hunters instead.
No it’s consistently said up to 11. The 11 is not definitive and won’t be till orders are placed. there is a footy field of space for the Giv to move and budgets will be tight. I can’t see it happening. Think 450 IFVs or 300 CRVs. 9 Hunters became 6. Don’t be surprised if they don’t get past 3.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
you are right, the media reports that Indonesia was to acquire Mogami are and were totally false. Despite some reports saying they signed a commitment to buy.
To add in here, Mogami has been lobbied by Japan to Indonesian MinDef this last four years. However so far none concrete plan between Mitsubishi with any Indonesian yards happen yet. Fincantieri already has, so does NG and off course Babcock already has existing project with PAL.

With that chances of Mogami or New FFM getting Frigate project with Indonesia, become less likely. They are also potentially less likely score any other Frigates project in region, as Philippines and Thai more likely focus with Korean, Singapore has their own ST design, Malaysian already goes with Turkiye and French, and Vietnam still taking Russian design.

Thus Australian more likely become focus for Japan as Frigate partner project.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
The Japanese build schedule is on Japanese wiki

Commissioning
FFM 6 June 2024
FFM 7 December 2024
FFM 8 March 2025
FFM 9 December 2025
FFM 10 March 2026
FFM 11 December 2026
FFM 12 March 2027 - Last of the Batch 1 built from early 2024/mid 2024.
(Batch 2)
FFM 13 March 2028 - First of the Batch 2 built from late 2024/early 2025.
FFM 14 December 2028
12 new FFM planned.

Hopefully we can get 1 of the First 4 (Batch 2) but that’s a big ask.

It will be interesting to know the price premium between the original Mogami series and the new FFM, and how this aligns with other exemplars.

The original Mogami (2018 era) reportedly cost US$500 million, whereas the Japanese FY25 budget includes US$1.2 billion for the first two new FFMs (so $600 million a piece). I've also read that current build original Mogamis are in the order of US$300 million to the Japanese Navy. I will note these are not apples for apples, have 8 years of inflation (about 30% increase) between them and some may include design as well as construct costs. So hard to fully unpick but there does not seem to be a massive difference between the 2018 first original Mogami and the 2025 first new FFM (probably the most equivalent two apples). Expect cheaper for the subsequent units of new FFMs as well.

I would have a view that the new FFM has much the same schedule as the original Mogami (Reptilia's post indicates this), and it is an evolutionary design (fix up flaws with the original, equipment refresh, and a few extra missiles) rather than a radical new concept. If price is not substantially different (which I don't think it is) then I would suspect the new FFM would be in the running for the Mitsubishi proposal. If 32 VLS is a deal breaker for cost, then fit it with 16 to start with. Or buy the 32 and don't fill them all (the missiles are more expensive than the launcher).

In comparison, Algeria paid US3.3 billion for four MEKOs, six helos and all the training and logistics stuff back in 2012. Again this is an orange for comparison with the Mogami/New FFM, but back out say a billion for the choppers, 500k for the logistics and its around US$400 in 2012 dollars. Escallating for inflation (about 40%), a 2025 MEKO would be in the order of US$600 million.

From what I've seen, Korean FFXs are about US$300-400 million (base unit price) at present to the Korean Navy.

The Saudi contract for 5 Avente 2000 corvettes was US$2.2 billion in 2018 (US$2.9 billion today), so about $US600 million per platform in 2025. I suspect this includes logistics, so back it out to about US$400 million. It will be interesting to see what they put on the table for the A3000 design.

Remember we would likely need to pay a design royalty (so factor this into the internal Korean and Japanese pricings), and it means that all designs would be about the US$500-600 million per platform (AUS$700-900 million).
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
This I will agree with you on. Especially if as little thought goes into actual platform capability as you suggest which isn't a possibility I'd thought about honestly. It'd be pretty disappointing if things have gotten so bad that fleet planning and capability has to be thrown out the window in order to get new ships into service in time.
Its pretty bad. We are retiring a class of ships, the backbone of the RAN, and the replacements are 10 years off.

It should be clear as well, the Anzacs are in terminal decline. While scrapping HMAS Anzac, improves some of the availability of the others of the class, it doesn't turn back time. With the loss of those ships, we may see a retention issue, as people start planning their lives around what is happening. So this also needs addressing, you need to give people hope. Some ships are definitely in better condition than others, however with the upgrade, it may deem multiple other ships not worthy and scrap them. They have been worked very, very, very hard.

With a SFA with Japan, the RAN can start posting people to terrible unexciting places like Tokyo, to learn and observe the building of the new class of ships, in a new exciting arrangement with Japan, doing some sea time with the Japanese navy. Retention bonuses are nice, but ultimately, paying money to people to sit at a desk they don't want to sit at, doesn't fix the core reason why people leave if there is nothing to do.

The Japanese also see potential in this. They too have retention problems and recruitment issues, particularly with young people in uniform and out.

Weapons and platforms are only part of the equation. The LHD's for example, don't fire many missiles, but they have been very critical platforms for the ADF. With no sailors, with no soldiers, and no aviators, there is no defence force. That said, the ships being offered are actually pretty good. I do believe the RAN sees it as generally do able. The RAN still has Hobarts and hunters, which are pretty good.

Thus Australian more likely become focus for Japan as Frigate partner project.
Japan has laid everything out for this bid. More so than they did with submarines. The lack of non-success has been traumatic for the Japanese. They are feeling super alone and unloved. If this bid fails, they may cease continuing engaging with the international market.

If they get Australia, that will swing the door wide open to them. No doubt the UK/US/CA/NZ will be interest what is happening and may start a wave of equipment sales. I don't think the Japanese really care about having multiple partners. But they really want one good non-US partner. In case Superman re-elects Trump, or worse than Trump candidate, they say things like they are no longer under the nuclear umbrella, and threatens a withdrawal from Asia. A partner like the UK or AU, would be ideal, because these guys can slap the Americans, get their attention, appeal to the population of the US, and influence decision making. Japan, can't.

Even if they don't, Australia has a boat load of resources, huge trade influence with China, China finds Australia impossible to pressure and manipulate and Australia has many friends on the international stage. Japan can supply muscle, ships, tech, etc, Australia provides diplomacy, credibility, leadership.

I can't imagine long and frequent discussions with the Indonesians have made the Japanese more relaxed.

Hopefully we can get 1 of the First 4 (Batch 2) but that’s a big ask.
I think we will be aiming to get 2 of the first 4. So perhaps an even bigger ask.

But you have to look at it from Japan's perspective. Russia approaching failed state status and warring with Europe. China just looks immense with all sorts of internal and external issues. The Americans looking less certain about their commitment to Asia in conflict, particularly watching what Ukraine has struggled to get US support with Republicans. Japan essentially doesn't have any non-US allies. 10 years of failed attempts at international defence relations. If the US withdrew from Japan, that would be psychologically and strategically apocalyptic for Japan.

Meanwhile Australia is selling armored vehicles to Germany at NATO meetings, and propping up NATO/US AWACs capability for Ukraine, at personal invitation of the Americans and getting nuclear submarines, from the Americans, maybe the Americans and the British, in some sort of super mega tight big boy club which enjoys unbreakable bipartisan support in all 3 countries, and a former prime minister and China expert in Washington, and they just got mr Wikileaks out. From the Japanese perspective, the deal with Australia must absolutely happen, and they are the most motivated to do so.

While Spain, Germany and Korea have issues and motivation, they aren't in the same situation as Japan.
 

devo99

Well-Known Member
Its pretty bad. We are retiring a class of ships, the backbone of the RAN, and the replacements are 10 years off.

It should be clear as well, the Anzacs are in terminal decline. While scrapping HMAS Anzac, improves some of the availability of the others of the class, it doesn't turn back time. With the loss of those ships, we may see a retention issue, as people start planning their lives around what is happening. So this also needs addressing, you need to give people hope. Some ships are definitely in better condition than others, however with the upgrade, it may deem multiple other ships not worthy and scrap them. They have been worked very, very, very hard.
Hurts to hear about the poor state of the Navy I'm supposed to be enlisting into but it seems that's just how things have lined up, sometimes a dose of reality is important. I don't imagine Defence Jobs would be wanting recruit candidates reading through this forum though. :p
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hurts to hear about the poor state of the Navy I'm supposed to be enlisting into but it seems that's just how things have lined up, sometimes a dose of reality is important. I don't imagine Defence Jobs would be wanting recruit candidates reading through this forum though
It may sound glum, but it is actually not. People are relieved that problems don't have to be hidden anymore, that things can improve. Purge what is broken and unsuitable, and replace with gucci new kit. The medicine may be brutal, but it fixes the problem. This gives people hope, hope in the system they operate in.

In times past the condition of HMAS Anzac/Supply etc may have been err, understated, which may have previously resulted in lack of proper rectification, with sailors, literally sticking fingers in holes to try and solve a problem. You do that as an emergency, but not for years just to make top brass look nice. You go back to sea, and all the problems that were meant to be fixed in port were still there, but worse, there are new ones, not only that, you were meant to be somewhere else, but that got canned, so your back in the same hole you were in. So really a lot of problems, have been decades in the making, and are finally getting addressed.

We used the Anzacs heavily while the Hobarts and FFG's being built/upgraded. We skipped support and maintenance, we made that trade. Puts them on borrowed time. Much the same with the US cruiser force, no amount of bubble gum, paint and politician talk is going to fix completely shagged ships that have had their backs broken, their welds crack, bolts stripped, threads worn, a list to one side, and fuel leaking a slick in port.

The good news is Hobarts are in excellent shape and lightly used. The AOR's will be fixed and then we should have the core of an operational force. The LHD's too had their problems, but they are fixed now. Collins, LOTE will address problems and issues they have had for decades. Even Arafura is getting sorted and will make nice patrol ships. Hunter is on its way. Throw in some new sorted tier II ships from somewhere, and the RAN will be looking better than it has in maybe 50+ years. Quality, capability, hull numbers, hull age, displacement, aviation, weapons, accommodation, even basing and training. Next 5 to 10 years will be a golden age for the RAN. Every year will be better than the last, bigger and more opportunity. Every year some magical new capability or platform.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Its pretty bad. We are retiring a class of ships, the backbone of the RAN, and the replacements are 10 years off.

It should be clear as well, the Anzacs are in terminal decline. While scrapping HMAS Anzac, improves some of the availability of the others of the class, it doesn't turn back time. With the loss of those ships, we may see a retention issue, as people start planning their lives around what is happening. So this also needs addressing, you need to give people hope. Some ships are definitely in better condition than others, however with the upgrade, it may deem multiple other ships not worthy and scrap them. They have been worked very, very, very hard.

With a SFA with Japan, the RAN can start posting people to terrible unexciting places like Tokyo, to learn and observe the building of the new class of ships, in a new exciting arrangement with Japan, doing some sea time with the Japanese navy. Retention bonuses are nice, but ultimately, paying money to people to sit at a desk they don't want to sit at, doesn't fix the core reason why people leave if there is nothing to do.

The Japanese also see potential in this. They too have retention problems and recruitment issues, particularly with young people in uniform and out.

Weapons and platforms are only part of the equation. The LHD's for example, don't fire many missiles, but they have been very critical platforms for the ADF. With no sailors, with no soldiers, and no aviators, there is no defence force. That said, the ships being offered are actually pretty good. I do believe the RAN sees it as generally do able. The RAN still has Hobarts and hunters, which are pretty good.


Japan has laid everything out for this bid. More so than they did with submarines. The lack of non-success has been traumatic for the Japanese. They are feeling super alone and unloved. If this bid fails, they may cease continuing engaging with the international market.

If they get Australia, that will swing the door wide open to them. No doubt the UK/US/CA/NZ will be interest what is happening and may start a wave of equipment sales. I don't think the Japanese really care about having multiple partners. But they really want one good non-US partner. In case Superman re-elects Trump, or worse than Trump candidate, they say things like they are no longer under the nuclear umbrella, and threatens a withdrawal from Asia. A partner like the UK or AU, would be ideal, because these guys can slap the Americans, get their attention, appeal to the population of the US, and influence decision making. Japan, can't.

Even if they don't, Australia has a boat load of resources, huge trade influence with China, China finds Australia impossible to pressure and manipulate and Australia has many friends on the international stage. Japan can supply muscle, ships, tech, etc, Australia provides diplomacy, credibility, leadership.

I can't imagine long and frequent discussions with the Indonesians have made the Japanese more relaxed.


I think we will be aiming to get 2 of the first 4. So perhaps an even bigger ask.

But you have to look at it from Japan's perspective. Russia approaching failed state status and warring with Europe. China just looks immense with all sorts of internal and external issues. The Americans looking less certain about their commitment to Asia in conflict, particularly watching what Ukraine has struggled to get US support with Republicans. Japan essentially doesn't have any non-US allies. 10 years of failed attempts at international defence relations. If the US withdrew from Japan, that would be psychologically and strategically apocalyptic for Japan.

Meanwhile Australia is selling armored vehicles to Germany at NATO meetings, and propping up NATO/US AWACs capability for Ukraine, at personal invitation of the Americans and getting nuclear submarines, from the Americans, maybe the Americans and the British, in some sort of super mega tight big boy club which enjoys unbreakable bipartisan support in all 3 countries, and a former prime minister and China expert in Washington, and they just got mr Wikileaks out. From the Japanese perspective, the deal with Australia must absolutely happen, and they are the most motivated to do so.

While Spain, Germany and Korea have issues and motivation, they aren't in the same situation as Japan.
If the delivery timeline continues, 2 out of the first 4 is highly unlikely, Australia just wants 1 delivered in 2029 for service entry 2030.
RAN would want to see a ship or 2 in service for a couple of years before we commission our own.

This would be a great outcome imo…
FFM 16 late 2029 -4th batch 2
FFM 19 or 20 early/late 2031 -7th or 8th batch 2
FFM 23 or 24 early/late 2033 -11th or 12th batch 2

A 4th built overseas I think is a good idea because we rarely see an Australian built project completed on time.
 

devo99

Well-Known Member
It may sound glum, but it is actually not. People are relieved that problems don't have to be hidden anymore, that things can improve. Purge what is broken and unsuitable, and replace with gucci new kit. The medicine may be brutal, but it fixes the problem. This gives people hope, hope in the system they operate in.

In times past the condition of HMAS Anzac/Supply etc may have been err, understated, which may have previously resulted in lack of proper rectification, with sailors, literally sticking fingers in holes to try and solve a problem. You do that as an emergency, but not for years just to make top brass look nice. You go back to sea, and all the problems that were meant to be fixed in port were still there, but worse, there are new ones, not only that, you were meant to be somewhere else, but that got canned, so your back in the same hole you were in. So really a lot of problems, have been decades in the making, and are finally getting addressed.

We used the Anzacs heavily while the Hobarts and FFG's being built/upgraded. We skipped support and maintenance, we made that trade. Puts them on borrowed time. Much the same with the US cruiser force, no amount of bubble gum, paint and politician talk is going to fix completely shagged ships that have had their backs broken, their welds crack, bolts stripped, threads worn, a list to one side, and fuel leaking a slick in port.

The good news is Hobarts are in excellent shape and lightly used. The AOR's will be fixed and then we should have the core of an operational force. The LHD's too had their problems, but they are fixed now. Collins, LOTE will address problems and issues they have had for decades. Even Arafura is getting sorted and will make nice patrol ships. Hunter is on its way. Throw in some new sorted tier II ships from somewhere, and the RAN will be looking better than it has in maybe 50+ years. Quality, capability, hull numbers, hull age, displacement, aviation, weapons, accommodation, even basing and training. Next 5 to 10 years will be a golden age for the RAN. Every year will be better than the last, bigger and more opportunity. Every year some magical new capability or platform.
If I needed more convincing to enlist you would've succeeded. This reality is probably more obvious to people already in than people looking in from the outside like myself so hopefully it at least improves retention.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
It will be interesting to know the price premium between the original Mogami series and the new FFM, and how this aligns with other exemplars.

The original Mogami (2018 era) reportedly cost US$500 million, whereas the Japanese FY25 budget includes US$1.2 billion for the first two new FFMs (so $600 million a piece). I've also read that current build original Mogamis are in the order of US$300 million to the Japanese Navy. I will note these are not apples for apples, have 8 years of inflation (about 30% increase) between them and some may include design as well as construct costs. So hard to fully unpick but there does not seem to be a massive difference between the 2018 first original Mogami and the 2025 first new FFM (probably the most equivalent two apples). Expect cheaper for the subsequent units of new FFMs as well.

I would have a view that the new FFM has much the same schedule as the original Mogami (Reptilia's post indicates this), and it is an evolutionary design (fix up flaws with the original, equipment refresh, and a few extra missiles) rather than a radical new concept. If price is not substantially different (which I don't think it is) then I would suspect the new FFM would be in the running for the Mitsubishi proposal. If 32 VLS is a deal breaker for cost, then fit it with 16 to start with. Or buy the 32 and don't fill them all (the missiles are more expensive than the launcher).

In comparison, Algeria paid US3.3 billion for four MEKOs, six helos and all the training and logistics stuff back in 2012. Again this is an orange for comparison with the Mogami/New FFM, but back out say a billion for the choppers, 500k for the logistics and its around US$400 in 2012 dollars. Escallating for inflation (about 40%), a 2025 MEKO would be in the order of US$600 million.

From what I've seen, Korean FFXs are about US$300-400 million (base unit price) at present to the Korean Navy.

The Saudi contract for 5 Avente 2000 corvettes was US$2.2 billion in 2018 (US$2.9 billion today), so about $US600 million per platform in 2025. I suspect this includes logistics, so back it out to about US$400 million. It will be interesting to see what they put on the table for the A3000 design.

Remember we would likely need to pay a design royalty (so factor this into the internal Korean and Japanese pricings), and it means that all designs would be about the US$500-600 million per platform (AUS$700-900 million).
The early Mogami’s were cheap at US$300M and I wonder how much the installation of the 16 Mk41 VLS would add to the cost. The 7th Mogami was the first to have the VLS fitted during construction so its cost would give a more reliable indication of costs. The new batch 2 FFM’s will obviously have a premium added due to the increase in size and 32 Mk41 VLS.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I don't think that the Mk41 unit is that expensive.

The Netherlands requested an FMS for 8 x8 cell VLS modules for a total of US$110 million. So a 16 cell Mk41 VLS would be in the order of US$30 million and a 32 cell US$60 million.

I suspect there would be more cost in making the ship larger to accommodate the space and weight for the larger VLS unit.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
It will be interesting to know the price premium between the original Mogami series and the new FFM, and how this aligns with other exemplars.

The original Mogami (2018 era) reportedly cost US$500 million, whereas the Japanese FY25 budget includes US$1.2 billion for the first two new FFMs (so $600 million a piece). I've also read that current build original Mogamis are in the order of US$300 million to the Japanese Navy. I will note these are not apples for apples, have 8 years of inflation (about 30% increase) between them and some may include design as well as construct costs. So hard to fully unpick but there does not seem to be a massive difference between the 2018 first original Mogami and the 2025 first new FFM (probably the most equivalent two apples). Expect cheaper for the subsequent units of new FFMs as well.

I would have a view that the new FFM has much the same schedule as the original Mogami (Reptilia's post indicates this), and it is an evolutionary design (fix up flaws with the original, equipment refresh, and a few extra missiles) rather than a radical new concept. If price is not substantially different (which I don't think it is) then I would suspect the new FFM would be in the running for the Mitsubishi proposal. If 32 VLS is a deal breaker for cost, then fit it with 16 to start with. Or buy the 32 and don't fill them all (the missiles are more expensive than the launcher).

In comparison, Algeria paid US3.3 billion for four MEKOs, six helos and all the training and logistics stuff back in 2012. Again this is an orange for comparison with the Mogami/New FFM, but back out say a billion for the choppers, 500k for the logistics and its around US$400 in 2012 dollars. Escallating for inflation (about 40%), a 2025 MEKO would be in the order of US$600 million.

From what I've seen, Korean FFXs are about US$300-400 million (base unit price) at present to the Korean Navy.

The Saudi contract for 5 Avente 2000 corvettes was US$2.2 billion in 2018 (US$2.9 billion today), so about $US600 million per platform in 2025. I suspect this includes logistics, so back it out to about US$400 million. It will be interesting to see what they put on the table for the A3000 design.

Remember we would likely need to pay a design royalty (so factor this into the internal Korean and Japanese pricings), and it means that all designs would be about the US$500-600 million per platform (AUS$700-900 million).
Would anyone here like to have a bet that the ships the RAN get are no where near these prices? . I’ll stab now at. $1.2-$1.5 billion per hull. Sorry but too many disappointments over the past 10 years.
 
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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Would anyone here like to have a bet that the ships get are no where near these prices? . I’ll stab now at. $1.2-$1.5 billion per hull.
Pretty close I reckon.

Mogami = 47.55 billion yen each 2020. (Japan Wikipedia links)
(445 million AUD) - (296 million USD) in todays exchange.
-2021 Indonesia 8 for 3.6 billion usd, 450 usd each, 50% more than unit cost.
-Order 2025/Build 2026 Japan built Mogami > Australia may cost $600-$700 million USD each, less the VLS?.

The new FFM = 87.35 billion yen each 2024, (Japan Wikipedia links)
(818 million AUD) - (540 million USD)
Applying 50% to unit cost = approx $1.6 billion AUD or $1.1 billion USD each (2024)
Order 2025/Build 2026> could be looking at $1.2 billion USD + each, about $3.6 billion usd for 3 built in Japan, VLS included?.
Australian build of 8 will cost alot more per unit but alot less than 1 Hunter.
 
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SammyC

Well-Known Member
Pretty close I reckon.

Mogami = 47.55 billion yen each 2020. (Japan Wikipedia links)
(445 million AUD) - (296 million USD) in todays exchange.
-2021 Indonesia 8 for 3.6 billion usd, 450 usd each, 50% more than unit cost.
-Order 2025/Build 2026 Japan built Mogami > Australia may cost $600-$700 million USD each, less the VLS?.

The new FFM = 87.35 billion yen each 2024, (Japan Wikipedia links)
(818 million AUD) - (540 million USD)
Applying 50% to unit cost = approx $1.6 billion AUD or $1.1 billion USD each (2024)
Order 2025/Build 2026> could be looking at $1.2 billion USD + each, about $3.6 billion usd for 3 built in Japan, VLS included?.
Australian build of 8 will cost alot more per unit but alot less than 1 Hunter.
AUS $1.6 billion per ship (construction price) feels a bit top end for the overseas build if in Japan. I fear the European offers may undercut this. The government may be platform agnostic (which I agree), and partial to the Japanese offer (which I also agree) but they will be price sensitive. I can't see us paying 50% above the unit price to Japan if the Japanese are bending over backwards to make this happen, in a competitive game. Particularly if we stick to the no change methodology (all bets are off if we don't).

I would hope that we could do an overseas GPF for less than $AUS1 billion, fully kitted and spurred. AUS $3 billion for the overseas three total, perhaps including initial spares. There's a whole heap of extra costs including project management, crew preparation and the rest, but this is just for the ships. I think that's still a good deal for Japan, and I think the other three exemplars could achieve this pricing.

I would also caution against base-lining off the first of class for the new FFM. I suspect this pricing includes much of the design costs to modify the original Mogami to the new spec, in addition to the construction costs. Subsequent units would likely be cheaper (as costing seems to show for the original Mogamis).

50% of the overseas build cost is perhaps a reasonable markup for an Australian build, excluding all design (there shouldn't be any), setup (yard), logistics (spares and training) and management (project office) costs. Again, this is on the premiss that we build to exactly the same spec as the overseas build (all bets are again off if we tinker). Based on efficiencies gained from the earlier overseas builds, I would have thought we could still end up around the AUS$1 billion (2024 dollars) for the local construction, particularly after the first one or two.

What do people think is the unit construction price per Hunter for comparison. My feel is that it is around AUS $3 billion per ship (US$2 billion), or about 40% of the quoted overall $45 billion for the project.

Three GPFs for the cost of one Hunter seems reasonable to me on a capability basis. More than that and you have to start wondering what we are doing.
 
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