John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Trump likely will be a huge problem for NATO and possibly the entire world. This is only possible due to the moron cowards in the GOP who only value being in charge, their social agendas, and will follow Donald straight to hell. Constitution, rule of law, and the truth, not necessary. As for international treaties, just like his contracts in the business world, see you in court.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Most people who who study foreign policy would say that the US benefits tremendously from having NATO, and could benefit even more in the future, now that Russia's aggression in Ukraine is finally motivating EU countries to take defense more seriously and start to invest.
NATO is seen differently in the US than in Europe. Within the US, NATO is seen as a favor the US does to help Europe in the US. A convenient system to help manage historically, um, smaller, weaker, less capable, less defended and frequently invaded nations, from big threats like the soviet union. From the US perspective, every nation is smaller and weaker.

While often in Europe its seen as a favor Europe does to help the US and help pax americana. To further US interests in Europe. Which is why some people protest American airbases. People often resent US military presence, and blame the US military for all wars and for the instability in europe.

Which one is right? Well who worries about their sovereignty and security if the US withdraws all forces, everything, land, sea, air from Europe? Its not the Americans.

In all the decades of the US being a NATO member this question of implementing such a legislation never came up! Until Trump became president...
Not exactly true.

For some insight in how some see NATO through US eyes. Look at that last link.
Striking is how all of these members, new and old, as well as aspirants—the Baltic States, Georgia and Ukraine, and Turkey—degrade U.S. security. Montenegro, at least, plays the harmless role of the Duchy of Fenwick in the Mouse that Roared. Although its inclusion in the alliance will further antagonize an already paranoid Russia, Podgorica really is irrelevant strategically and militarily. The others are not. In a worst case all of them could ensnare America in a war with a nuclear‐armed power over modest, indeed, minimal, security stakes. The policy frankly is mad.

However, even if Washington’s NATO commitments did not bring far more dangers than benefits, they would be unjustified. Europe could, if it was so inclined, defend itself. Why, 70 years after the conclusion of World War II, 26 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, and 22 years after creation of the European Union, are the Europeans still dependent on America?

Retired Gen. Robert Scales, commandant of the Army War College, recently complained that: “At 30,000, there are fewer American soldiers protecting Western Europe, a piece of the planet that produces 46 percent of global GDP, than there are cops in New York City.” But why can’t an area that accounts for almost half of the world’s production (an overstatement, but never mind) and has a larger population than America provide its own soldiers for defense? Why can’t an area of such economic prowess, which has around eight times the GDP and three times the population of its only possible antagonist, Russia, deploy an armed force capable of deterring any threats?

The reason the Europeans don’t do so is because they don’t want to and don’t have to. Some don’t believe that Moscow actually poses much of a threat. Others figure only the nations bordering Russia face any risk, and there’s little interest in “Old Europe” for confronting Moscow over “New Europe.” And almost everyone assumes America will take care of any problems.
Europeans under fund defence spending, Europeans have fantastic healthcare and social programs. The US spends a lot on military, has failing and terrible healthcare and social programs. Politically, for Trump, or anyone to make this correlation is easy, and most people don't understand correlation or causation, so many people honestly believe, America's healthcare is so bad, not because they deliberately made it bad, but because the US spends so much on military equipment, to protect allies, allies who protest against them, and who under spend on defence.

That view is taken up by both sides of the political divide in the US.
1709850461600.png1709850738481.png

Both peaceniks and war hawks like the idea of pressuring or talking about leaving Europe/NATO, for different reasons. Middle America just cares they don't have working health care, expensive education and that cost of living is breaking them.

Europe has put itself right into the middle of the US internal problems. The social crisis in the US is being blamed on, European defence spending.

Forget blaming Trump. Trump is a symptom of the problem. He didn't make America, WW2, NATO, he didn't even break America, and cause all of its social problems. What he is doing is jumping onto popular bandwagons. Blame migrants, Europeans can't defend themselves and aren't good friends, China.. etc etc.. He is certainly likely to make existing problems bigger.

The best lies he tells are ones with elements of truth.

Turkey has its own problems and agenda, it always has. While Turkey annoys the Europeans, Americans, typically aren't terribly annoyed with Turkey. Many of Erdogan criticism of NATO and Europe are things trump could easily say. Arguably its easier to deal with turkey with it in NATO, sure it annoys other NATO members, but it means there more engagement and controls that can be applied. The US can use Turkey to annoy European nations it is displeased with. Turkey has really strategic presence for the Americans. Keeping Turkey in NATO means the Americans can deal with Turkey as a friendly. Europeans should learn how to get along with other countries and understand the real politick before commenting on US efforts.

Turkey isn't going anywhere.

Trump is coming. My comment to our European friends, is start spending. Either way, that is the way to resolve this issue.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I disagree I find it ironic. The US was one of the founding members, has been the undisputed leader of NATO since it started, is the only country that has actually triggered article 5. Also I disagree that the US would leave NATO due to "the EU and US have objectively different interests" (which also somewhat contradicts the point you made in the previous paragraph about Turkey.)
Sorry, perhaps I was too vague. I don't think the US was going to leave NATO due to diverging interests. But it doesn't surprise me that the US would pose a threat to NATO unity.

Most people who who study foreign policy would say that the US benefits tremendously from having NATO, and could benefit even more in the future, now that Russia's aggression in Ukraine is finally motivating EU countries to take defense more seriously and start to invest. The main driver for the US leaving NATO would be Trump. Whether he does not understand how the US benefits for NATO, or if he just don't care, or if Russia has kompromat on him, or a combination, who knows. But his previous statements about NATO scared both Democrats and Republicans so much that they reached a bipartisan agreement (extremely rare these days) to implement legislation stating that the US President cannot take the US out of NATO without support from the Senate or an act of Congress. Congress approves bill barring any president from unilaterally withdrawing from NATO | The Hill

In all the decades of the US being a NATO member this question of implementing such a legislation never came up! Until Trump became president...

However even with this legislation in place Trump can find ways around it, and potentially weaken NATO to a point where his best buddy Putin decides to e.g., go for the Baltics -- with Trump's silent blessing. Trump is purely transactional and just like he traded Kurds in Syria, he could potentially trade former European allies in a deal with Putin. Therefore Europe must step up asap, in case Trump becomes the next US president. European allies must work together and become so strong that we can deter Russia even without the US. It will be very expensive but definitely achievable, and also worth it. In my opinion.
I don't disagree with what you say about Trump but I suspect that had Russia not invaded Ukraine, or even more so not annexed Crimea, Europe would be getting closer and closer to Russia and drifting, albeit slowly, apart from the US.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
In a press conference in Norway the government presented updated defence plans for Norway for 2025-2036. Negotiations between parties in the Norwegian parliament have been completed and they are all aligned. Only minor adjustments to the plans presented by Norwegian government have been made. The main changes seems to be:

1. Long-range anti-ballistic system will be installed to protect Oslo and the surrounding region. In the original proposal one long-range system was included. This means that there will be two long-range systems.

2. The number of German 212CD submarines will be increased from 5 to 6. They will be delivered from 2029 and onwards.

3. A coherent strategy for the use of drones will be developed. Not sure what this entails, I guess we will get more info about this later on.

Apart from that, it seems they will stick to the plan presented by the government, including:

1. increasing the number of brigades from 1 to 3
2. Replace the Nansen class of frigates with 5 new ASW frigates
3. Number of NASAMS will be doubled, from 4 to 8.
4. Number of conscripts will increase by 20,000
5. Home guard will expand to 45,000 soldiers


All in all not too bad although I was hoping for:

1. 4-5 long-range anti-ballistic systems
2. 12 NASAMS
3. 6 frigates.

Historisk enighet om forsvarssatsing – vil bruke 1635 milliarder kroner på 12 år (aftenposten.no)

Regarding the new long-range anti-ballistic system -- it seems Kongsberg is planning on expanding NASAMS... (slide 31). kongsberg-cmd-2024.pdf
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Very positive news IMO. Given Norway’s prudent management of its oil revenues, it is just about the only NATO member that can financially follow through with significant defence promises.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Isn't the US the global top spender on healthcare? Though I hear it's mostly due to R&D.
Yes we are. But remember grading on a curve. If you are the world’s #1 Economy with more money than anyone else. Than even a small percentage is a huge amount of money.

The U.S. spends between 17-20% of GDP on Healthcare. We spend 2-3% on defense. It’s a popular narrative that if we cut defense we could do everything because people think the pentagon toilets are made of gold, but not a realistic one.

The U.S. could close the DOD and not make so much as a rounding error in the National debt or make a change to national healthcare that would make us a utopia.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Healthcare in the US and Canada have significant issues despite both nations spending a $hitload of money. Neither nation seems willing to look at hybrid solutions to their current operation, Canada because of the socialist free $hit mentality of the populace and the US insurance lobby insisting on profit for care. End result, crappy care with delays (but free) in Canada for 100%, great care for (75%, perhaps less) in the US. Totally agree, defence spending is a drop in bucket compared to healthcare, much more so in Canada.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Isn't the US the global top spender on healthcare? Though I hear it's mostly due to R&D.
The USA spends more per head than any other country and it is NOT mostly due to R&D. The US healthcare system seems to be designed to maximise waste, e.g. a higher proportion of its spending is on administration than any other country's, & much more than most. In absolute terms, it spends more per head on administration than some other countries (with higher life expectancy) spend on all healthcare.

From what I hear the USA has doctors doing routine tasks which elsewhere are done by nurses - or even healthcare assistants. And they do them at least as well as doctors because they do them all the time. It has too little primary care, & poor people who can't afford insurance (which can be horribly expensive) often wait until they need emergency treatment before seeking medical help, & that means they need more, & more expensive, treatment. Ante-natal provision for those without money or employer-provided insurance is very patchy indeed, & that puts up infant & maternal mortality - & cost. Problems with pregnancies may not be picked up until late, because of patchy ante-natal provision. Just a couple of examples.

And then there's bureaucracy. There's far more of it than elsewhere. Insurance companies have caps set on their profits - so they don't care about controlling costs. A fixed percentage of $1mn is less than the same percentage of $2mn. Farming work out to such things as "pharmacy benefit managers" enables another business to make a profit, thus bypassing that cap. Billing is a byzantine nightmare, amazingly wasteful, with an insane level of itemisation. Private hospitals here in the UK, for example, treat a lot of things that US hospitals put on bills as overhead, because it's cheaper: less admin. Doctors & hospitals have to employ far more admin staff than in other countries, to handle that complicated billing, dealing with insurers, etc.

And so on . . . . I've heard of Americans with what they say is good insurance paying a "co-pay" for, e.g., a basic MRI scan which is covered by insurance, which is similar to the full price from a commercial, profit-making provider in the UK. Baffling.

If you have elective surgery, e.g. a hip or knee replacement, at a private hospital in the UK, you're given an all-in price upfront. I know people who've had it done. There may be extra charges for, e.g., better meals or special dietary requirements. They're on the price list. Price lists are online. You get your bill, & that's it. I keep hearing of Americans who aren't sure what they'll pay until after treatment & then get apparently random charges added on, sometimes months later. If you dispute them, they may be reduced. That must add a lot to administration. Not here. Much simpler, much more open. And the whole "not in network" thing is madness. Doesn't happen here. Can't get another doctor doing something minor & then sending in their own bill. Note that this isn't because doctors in private hospitals are all hospital employees. It's just that there's always a prime contractor, either the hospital or the doctor in charge of your case, & you pay them. They pay everyone else. Of course. Why would anyone do it differently?

When I hear stories from Americans about their experiences of medical care I'm baffled. Why do they put up with it?

Note that US medical outcomes are overall (there are some exceptions) rather poor, compared to most developed countries, largely but not exclusively because of poor coverage & late intervention. That's reflected in poor infant & maternal mortality, & poor life expectancy & years of healthy life (& yes, I know that lifestyle also matters). And yet, the USA spends far more than any other developed country.

Oh, R&D - IIRC marketing costs account for a bigger share of excess US spending than R&D. Also, US firms tend to spend more on tweaks to formulations of old drugs which are just enough to get a patent.

BTW, US government spending on health care is more per head than some countries (such as the UK) which have tax-funded health services. But even so, more's financed by insurance & out of pocket.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
While a NATO thread I don't want to dig too much into US health spending.

Isn't the US the global top spender on healthcare? Though I hear it's mostly due to R&D.
While most health care R&D happens in the US, that is not generally counted in healthcare expenditure. Other than companies make more profits, and perhaps some of those profits could go into R&D, instead of dividends.

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1717543970307.png

What is really driving social issues, and dissatisfaction is the health care outcomes.
1717544056068.png

This is all pre covid, which generally made matters much worse. People in the US can see the difference, are experiencing the difference socially.

European NATO nations, jumping into the healthcare debate, (or the gun debate) is probably not going to be helpful. The US does provide tremendous military support to NATO and to Europe. Arguably that has provided a safety net that allows European nations to place spending elsewhere.

Globally, US Pax-Americana, means that globally, on average everyone is safer, more secure, and we have a rules based order generally. Wars still occur, but they are smaller, localized, and less intense. Genocides, can occur, but they typically don't last for decades or centuries. The UN Is able to function, the big players typically talk through diplomacy and small players can face global pressure.

It is often very politically convenient to blame external factors for internal issues. This occurs everywhere, since time began. NATO was born out of a real need post WW2, and post Soviet expansion. So the very concept of NATO, supports the argument that the US spends huge amounts on protecting rich western European nations and has done so for nearly a century. European nations that often make tone deaf and blunt comments on the US healthcare or other social problems.

Historically, or perhaps by perceptions, NATO also hasn't returned the favor. Korea was lightly attended by now NATO nations, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan for all its complications - wasn't perhaps NATO's finest hours - and blaming Europe (or lack of allied support) for that may be politically convenient. Iraq 2. Probably the biggest things that some Americans may remember about European views was renaming French fries, Freedom fries. Now in Ukraine, there has been some criticism that European nations aren't perhaps taking the lead, have under delivered. That again, Europe has thrust onto the US, most of the cost and most of the responsibility.

Also perhaps consider how Americans view Brexit. The Americans have a very tight relationship with the US, and are generally thought of, these days, as close allies. Brexit and the EU also plays into how some of the ways Americans see the EU as a deliberate and not economically aligned trade block to keep US exports out.

Trump returning to the white house could mean doubling down on various policies that were talked about but not committed to.

I believe the US is going to start redeploying forces away from NATO and Europe, regardless who wins the elections. But it may be very popular to frame that, not to meet a peer threat in Asia, but as the European nations not meeting their defence commitments they were previously warned about.

Which again, the solution is the same regardless, Europe need to frantically start spending. Projects and capabilities that can be pointed at, internationally need to happen. Not just "we commissioned another 155mm factory to sell shells onto the open market because the war in Ukraine is making this highly profitable", but actual deployable, measurable capabilities. If the US is donating shells, and Europe opens factories that are selling shells, it has to be considered how that will be seen as perhaps taking advantage of America's generosity.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The USA spends more per head than any other country and it is NOT mostly due to R&D. The US healthcare system seems to be designed to maximise waste, e.g. a higher proportion of its spending is on administration than any other country's, & much more than most. In absolute terms, it spends more per head on administration than some other countries (with higher life expectancy) spend on all healthcare.

From what I hear the USA has doctors doing routine tasks which elsewhere are done by nurses - or even healthcare assistants. And they do them at least as well as doctors because they do them all the time. It has too little primary care, & poor people who can't afford insurance (which can be horribly expensive) often wait until they need emergency treatment before seeking medical help, & that means they need more, & more expensive, treatment. Ante-natal provision for those without money or employer-provided insurance is very patchy indeed, & that puts up infant & maternal mortality - & cost. Problems with pregnancies may not be picked up until late, because of patchy ante-natal provision. Just a couple of examples.

And then there's bureaucracy. There's far more of it than elsewhere. Insurance companies have caps set on their profits - so they don't care about controlling costs. A fixed percentage of $1mn is less than the same percentage of $2mn. Farming work out to such things as "pharmacy benefit managers" enables another business to make a profit, thus bypassing that cap. Billing is a byzantine nightmare, amazingly wasteful, with an insane level of itemisation. Private hospitals here in the UK, for example, treat a lot of things that US hospitals put on bills as overhead, because it's cheaper: less admin. Doctors & hospitals have to employ far more admin staff than in other countries, to handle that complicated billing, dealing with insurers, etc.

And so on . . . . I've heard of Americans with what they say is good insurance paying a "co-pay" for, e.g., a basic MRI scan which is covered by insurance, which is similar to the full price from a commercial, profit-making provider in the UK. Baffling.

If you have elective surgery, e.g. a hip or knee replacement, at a private hospital in the UK, you're given an all-in price upfront. I know people who've had it done. There may be extra charges for, e.g., better meals or special dietary requirements. They're on the price list. Price lists are online. You get your bill, & that's it. I keep hearing of Americans who aren't sure what they'll pay until after treatment & then get apparently random charges added on, sometimes months later. If you dispute them, they may be reduced. That must add a lot to administration. Not here. Much simpler, much more open. And the whole "not in network" thing is madness. Doesn't happen here. Can't get another doctor doing something minor & then sending in their own bill. Note that this isn't because doctors in private hospitals are all hospital employees. It's just that there's always a prime contractor, either the hospital or the doctor in charge of your case, & you pay them. They pay everyone else. Of course. Why would anyone do it differently?

When I hear stories from Americans about their experiences of medical care I'm baffled. Why do they put up with it?

Note that US medical outcomes are overall (there are some exceptions) rather poor, compared to most developed countries, largely but not exclusively because of poor coverage & late intervention. That's reflected in poor infant & maternal mortality, & poor life expectancy & years of healthy life (& yes, I know that lifestyle also matters). And yet, the USA spends far more than any other developed country.

Oh, R&D - IIRC marketing costs account for a bigger share of excess US spending than R&D. Also, US firms tend to spend more on tweaks to formulations of old drugs which are just enough to get a patent.

BTW, US government spending on health care is more per head than some countries (such as the UK) which have tax-funded health services. But even so, more's financed by insurance & out of pocket.
You have summarized many of the problems the US system, correctly IMHO. Canada’s socialized system should be better except for our multiple governments fucking things up! We have ten separate healthcare bureaucracies plus three territories being funded by the Feds…no common purchases for competitive pricing , different accounting and billing, and a host of other different items. C-F, any disagreement on this!!
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
I believe the US is going to start redeploying forces away from NATO and Europe, regardless who wins the elections.
Very many of the US forces stationed in Europe (which are all in NATO countries AFAIK, apart from perhaps a few advisers) aren't there to defend Europe, but to support the USA's ability to deploy forces elsewhere. The USA has forward bases for ships, lots of logistics, & hospitals in Europe, for example. The scope for reduction is limited without reducing the capability to intervene in, e.g. the Middle East. Europe's a nice safe place for bases, with excellent local infrastructure - & some European countries subsidise their US bases.

Which again, the solution is the same regardless, Europe need to frantically start spending. Projects and capabilities that can be pointed at, internationally need to happen. Not just "we commissioned another 155mm factory to sell shells onto the open market because the war in Ukraine is making this highly profitable", but actual deployable, measurable capabilities. If the US is donating shells, and Europe opens factories that are selling shells, it has to be considered how that will be seen as perhaps taking advantage of America's generosity.
Yes, more spending's needed. but that's started. Most countries have increased their spending, quite a lot of them greatly, & more increases are planned. Most European NATO countries are now spending at least the recommended 2% of GDP.

As far as I can see, increasing 155mm shell production isn't aimed at selling more on the open market. It's aimed at having more available for rebuilding stockpiles after giving shells to Ukraine, & being able to keep giving, & giving more.

There's no sudden rush of demand for shells around the world that needs more production capacity in Europe, AFAIK. You can't sell more shells without more demand, & apart from Europe, where's that increased demand? European producers already seem to be selling as many outside Europe as there's demand for. BAE, for example, isn't increasing production capacity in the UK eightfold to sell eight times as many shells in Asia, Africa & Latin America, but to sell to the UK government, which wants to replace the shells it's given to Ukraine, build a bigger stockpile - & still be able to give shells to Ukraine. Same with Nammo, Rheinmetall, etc. They're increasing capacity mostly against new, big, orders from their own & other NATO governments, not to export outside Europe.

Note that most ammunition production in Europe is by private companies, not government factories. Governments here don't build ammunition factories. In 2022 companies were being told they should increase production, & their response was "So place orders". When governments did, investment began.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The Ukrainian war has clearly illustrated the need for inventory, at least in respect to 155mm shells and HIMARS missiles. A similar case can be made for AA missiles (land and naval). One would be tempted to increase armoured vehicles also but I can understand some delay until anti-drone measures are sorted. Quantity really is a quality wrt defence kit.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Very many of the US forces stationed in Europe (which are all in NATO countries AFAIK, apart from perhaps a few advisers) aren't there to defend Europe, but to support the USA's ability to deploy forces elsewhere. The USA has forward bases for ships, lots of logistics, & hospitals in Europe, for example. The scope for reduction is limited without reducing the capability to intervene in, e.g. the Middle East. Europe's a nice safe place for bases, with excellent local infrastructure - & some European countries subsidise their US bases.
I am understating what will happen.

Literally every thing with bang power will be redeployed. Perhaps including NATO shared nuclear weapons. US bases will fall to remaining NATO allies to man. But every solider, every ship, every plane will be redeployed. Heavy land equipment (tanks etc) will essentially be abandoned and gifted to local forces.

Not just from Europe. From everywhere. From Africa, from the middle east.
Europe is not an ideal place to project power to China. From this moment onwards, Europe will need to basically fend for itself.

It will be the greatest redeployment of movement of resources earth has ever seen since the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs moved trillions of tons of water and rock.

Yes, more spending's needed. but that's started. Most countries have increased their spending, quite a lot of them greatly, & more increases are planned. Most European NATO countries are now spending at least the recommended 2% of GDP.
2% is what is required if the US provides most of the bulk for the fighting force in NATO, ie the historical status quo. With the US withdrawal, 2% is not enough. It will need to be more like 4%. Such a change may take decades. Europe will need to secure its own sea lanes in the Mediterranean and in the middle east. Plus there will be general chaos on its borders, both refugees and direct conflict.

As far as I can see, increasing 155mm shell production isn't aimed at selling more on the open market. It's aimed at having more available for rebuilding stockpiles after giving shells to Ukraine, & being able to keep giving, & giving more.
This is true, I should explain, that there is a perception that Europe is making money off the war in Europe, off the US back, and off Ukrainian lives. Ironically this is sometimes used to subvert European claims the US is profiting from the war.

Complaining to American voters that the US is profiting from the war in Ukraine, and that they should help make energy prices in Europe lower, falls on deaf ears within the US. That Europe is just unable to look after itself.

House of Representatives holds off on Ukraine aid package − here’s why the US has a lot at stake in supporting Ukraine

These aren't my personal views, but are views and media that circulates in the US.

The country that seems to be doing quite well on the open market is Korea. But Korea doesn't play into the Europeans are lazy argument that fringe republicans seem to enjoy.

Note that most ammunition production in Europe is by private companies, not government factories. Governments here don't build ammunition factories. In 2022 companies were being told they should increase production, & their response was "So place orders". When governments did, investment began.
Yes, private companies can't do much by themselves. Their is a disconnect as politicians talk, but fail to deliver. While saying they encourage massive expansion of facilities, yet, orders are still slow.

Again going back to a full US withdrawal out Europe (but still in NATO, but shifting its resources out of geographical Europe), Europe needs to start frantically working to secure itself.

If the famed and feared Sino-American great war kicks off, it is definitely going to engage Europe in a very direct way, with munitions falling on cities. The Americans will not have spare resources for Europe. China will want Russia to keep Europe more than busy, so they are unable to assist the US or its allies.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
"there is a perception that Europe is making money off the war in Europe, off the US back "

Bloody weird perception, when European countries are collectively giving much more aid to Ukraine than the USA is, especially economic aid, & on top of that are directly supporting millions of Ukrainians (mostly women & children) who've fled the war.

Do they realise how much redeploying everything away from Europe would cost? And are they really going to abandon the Middle East - including Israel?
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
"there is a perception that Europe is making money off the war in Europe, off the US back "

Bloody weird perception, when European countries are collectively giving much more aid to Ukraine than the USA is, especially economic aid, & on top of that are directly supporting millions of Ukrainians (mostly women & children) who've fled the war.

Do they realise how much redeploying everything away from Europe would cost? And are they really going to abandon the Middle East - including Israel?
I agree, for the most part.

I think the main aspect that many who propose similar arguments are missing is that, while Europe greatly benefits form the US military spending, it isn’t a charity or a one-way street. Not only Europe is the largest market for the Americans, valued at over $1.3T in 2022 and over $1.5T if one includes the UK (probably quite a bit more (guessing ~10%?) now due to the energy exports from the US, as well as military equipment, etc - basically, the results of the war in Ukraine), Europe is also crucial for projecting American power in the region, as well as the entire continent and beyond. Middle East cannot be abandoned simply due to the energy demands, not only the demand by the “friendlies” and, hence, the US itself, but also China. You cannot leave Europe and expect having the same influence in the Middle East for obvious reasons. And this is crucially important. Above that, the move would destabilize Europe itself, which is not in the American interest either. Last but not least, it is also not in the American interest to have a Europe that can compete with the United States for the global influence and affairs.

Also, imagine the Americans going through all the trouble expanding NATO, insisting on the Ukrainian and Georgian memberships, clearly destabilizing, but, I guess, thought worthy moves where the future members cannot pay for themselves in the foreseeable future and beyond, all for the benefit of the said members and world peace, and then just leaving the whole project after the shit hit the fan and needs to be contained before the bigger chunks of feces fly elsewhere, which, in turn, would lead to the increase of Russian influence in the region, whether one likes it or not, and not only due their power (that is still very relevant), but also its immense size and natural resources, influence elsewhere, including the Middle East, and so on.

But then hey, the world is sure changing and who the hell knows anymore. Rationality and logic surely seem to have suffered in the past relatively short while.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Two Norwegian communication satellites were recently launched with a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket. They enable broadband civilian and military communication in the arctic region.

The Arctic Satellite Broadband Mission (ASBM) is led by the company Space Norway, which is owned by the Norwegian Ministry of Trade, Industry, and Fisheries. The ASBM program's cooperation partners and customers are the Norwegian Armed Forces – together with the US Space Force, the American communications company Viasat (after the acquisition of Inmarsat), and the EU Commission.

The ASBM satellites are carrying payloads for the first three to serve military and civilian radio spectrums, while the EU Commission has a radiation monitor instrument built by the Norwegian company IDEAS.

The satellite payloads include two US Space Force Enhanced Polar System-Recapitalization (EPS-R) jam-resistant communication payloads, an X-band (microwave) communications payload for Norway’s Ministry of Defence, and a Ka-band payload for commercial firm Viasat.

This is the first time the US has sent a military payload aboard a non-American satellite.

Friends in high places: Space Force entrusts military payload to Norwegian firm in comsat launch - Breaking Defense

In other news, Norway and Sweden is jointly purchasing 120 railway wagons to transport military equipment.
Svenskt försvar köper 120 tåg tillsammans med Norge | JARNVAGSnyheter.se
 
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