SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
Thought:

Trump's presented Europe with the stick. Now it's time to present the carrot - American MIC.
While it is important that Europe develops its own MIC, the US can still benefit greatly if it expedites deliveries to Europe to attract more contracts and enjoy. Europe rearms faster, American MIC expands. Win-win situation.
You clearly underestimate the political support factor towards the US in Europe. Which is low... to use an undestatement.
Anti-americanism was already strong before Trump, imagine now.
It's going to take years, maybe decades, but eventually the US will loose the EU as a market for their weapon systems.
Its inevitable... not easy nor immediate, but inevitable.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
It's going to take years, maybe decades, but eventually the US will loose the EU as a market for their weapon systems.
Its inevitable... not easy nor immediate, but inevitable.
We will see. If the US gets a dem president next who aplogizes for Trumps action and can maintain a non Maga administration for 2-3 terms in a row, then I expect Europe to remain a major American military market. At the end of the day Euro govts are behoden to their own budgets, if the US becomes friednly again and offers cheaper alternatives to German/French made arms, then the cheaper gear will have a market. But this is contigent on US having atleast 2-3 non maga administrations in a row.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
You clearly underestimate the political support factor towards the US in Europe. Which is low... to use an undestatement.
Anti-americanism was already strong before Trump, imagine now.
It's going to take years, maybe decades, but eventually the US will loose the EU as a market for their weapon systems.
Its inevitable... not easy nor immediate, but inevitable.
I think you meant to say "overestimate".
And I also think you put too much weight behind mostly empty political rhetoric.
Europe needs the US as a boogeyman to sell to the general public:
  1. Massive rearmament.
  2. Potential conscription.
I'm sure if we were to conduct a poll, both decisions would be very unpopular in Europe. The former at least when people would hear about the painful cuts.

The reality is that Europe needs weapons fast. Much faster than it could hope to produce by the end of the decade. And it's only further validated the longer Europe waits with the rearmament programs.
So despite all the talk, I'm sure they'll rush to fill up every American, Israeli, Korean defense company's order log book.
That, or they'll have to choose between buying from Russia/Iran/China.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think you meant to say "overestimate".
And I also think you put too much weight behind mostly empty political rhetoric.
Europe needs the US as a boogeyman to sell to the general public:
  1. Massive rearmament.
  2. Potential conscription.
I'm sure if we were to conduct a poll, both decisions would be very unpopular in Europe. The former at least when people would hear about the painful cuts.

The reality is that Europe needs weapons fast. Much faster than it could hope to produce by the end of the decade. And it's only further validated the longer Europe waits with the rearmament programs.
So despite all the talk, I'm sure they'll rush to fill up every American, Israeli, Korean defense company's order log book.
That, or they'll have to choose between buying from Russia/Iran/China.
Or none of those options and instead have very limited foreign policy options as a result. You don't need weapons to stare down Russia and support Ukraine if you're willing to sell Ukraine downriver. You can get by with less if you stay back further, and lean more heavily on a nuclear deterrent.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't see any EU army jumping into Ukraine and fighting off the Russians. I don't think they are equipped with for that.It is one thing for Ukraine to complain about lack of munitions, it is another for French.German.UK soldiers to complain about no bullets and no missiles.

Im not sure nuclear deterrents are what they used to be, particularly between powers. You can now totally have a peer war at scale with nuclear powers. If anyone uses nuclear weapons, then MAD comes into play and everyone looses.

The deterrent is your actual capability.

Im not sure the US leadership cares about US military sales to Europe. Europe doesn't buy that much stuff. The real arms race is in Asia and the middle east. How many european ships use Aegis? How many europeans use M1 tanks? Even F-35 sales have been lacklustre and slow.

I find it amusing that Europe still thinks its at the centre of the geopolitical world. Among the two superpowers, Europe, as a region ranks 3rd or below in terms of priorities and interest. It may even be out of the top 5. Going forward with a massively aging population, tiny birth rate, and general economic malaise...

Ultimately the US is being directly challenged for global authority by a power in Asia. That is where its focus and thinking is heading. IMO
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Im not sure nuclear deterrents are what they used to be, particularly between powers. You can now totally have a peer war at scale with nuclear powers. If anyone uses nuclear weapons, then MAD comes into play and everyone looses.
Even in the 50’s 60’s and 70’s when the nuclear deterrent was at its apex the power v power dynamic had a work around. One that the Russians today love to use. Insurgency and political destabilization operations. Something that Vladimir Putin’s FSB was deeply involved in Eastern Europe before the 2014 invasion. If the national government is unstable or even moreover a puppet of the Kremlin a nuclear deterrent is rendered mute.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The real arms race is in Asia and the middle east. How many european ships use Aegis? How many europeans use M1 tanks? Even F-35 sales have been lacklustre and slow.
Even Euro MIC continue survival more and more related to Middle East and Asia market as Euro market on it is own will not be enough. I once attend Bankers and Industry meeting in Singapore, and during MIC session one of Dasault Executive acknowledged that. Without Middle East and Asian market it is very hard to keep Rafale production line open. This is just an example that shown how Euro MIC looking to Middle East and Asia market to keep maintaining their production line.

This shown fact that Euro defence market will not be enough to sustain their own MIC survivability, while US own market can sustain their own MIC even without export. This talk on more investment in their MIC for 600 - 800 bio Euro or whatever big number being talk , well I believe when the real money come to implementation. Euro constituents will then decide if they want to suffer the welfare program cuts that will come with increase defense. That's the big question down the line.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Even Euro MIC continue survival more and more related to Middle East and Asia market as Euro market on it is own will not be enough. I once attend Bankers and Industry meeting in Singapore, and during MIC session one of Dasault Executive acknowledged that. Without Middle East and Asian market it is very hard to keep Rafale production line open. This is just an example that shown how Euro MIC looking to Middle East and Asia market to keep maintaining their production line.

This shown fact that Euro defence market will not be enough to sustain their own MIC survivability, while US own market can sustain their own MIC even without export. This talk on more investment in their MIC for 600 - 800 bio Euro or whatever big number being talk , well I believe when the real money come to implementation. Euro constituents will then decide if they want to suffer the welfare program cuts that will come with increase defense. That's the big question down the line.
This is largely attributable to a defense-industry ecosystem not suitable for the current reality. The governments must be involved in the R&D and de-risk it and production programs. The best way to do that is to lead by setting requirements, and then make gradual buys that keep production lines open indefinitely.
If Fr*nce for example pledged to keep buying Rafales indefinitely at a low rate, and then a 5th or 6th gen aircraft when industry has one ready, and sell retired Rafales at a low price, it could ensure baseline production capacity in peacetime and instant ramp-up in wartime.
Batch buys and over-reliance on competition is net detrimental to European security at the moment. There's a point where competition starts showing its downsides and loses its upsides, and it's showing right now.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I don't see any EU army jumping into Ukraine and fighting off the Russians. I don't think they are equipped with for that.It is one thing for Ukraine to complain about lack of munitions, it is another for French.German.UK soldiers to complain about no bullets and no missiles.

Im not sure nuclear deterrents are what they used to be, particularly between powers. You can now totally have a peer war at scale with nuclear powers. If anyone uses nuclear weapons, then MAD comes into play and everyone looses.

The deterrent is your actual capability.

Im not sure the US leadership cares about US military sales to Europe. Europe doesn't buy that much stuff. The real arms race is in Asia and the middle east. How many european ships use Aegis? How many europeans use M1 tanks? Even F-35 sales have been lacklustre and slow.

I find it amusing that Europe still thinks its at the centre of the geopolitical world. Among the two superpowers, Europe, as a region ranks 3rd or below in terms of priorities and interest. It may even be out of the top 5. Going forward with a massively aging population, tiny birth rate, and general economic malaise...

Ultimately the US is being directly challenged for global authority by a power in Asia. That is where its focus and thinking is heading. IMO
I don't agree F-35 sales has been lackluster and slow. European countries have replaced their 4. gen jets when they have reached end of life, with a few exception (mainly France and Sweden). Hundreds of F-35 have been bought already and many more will be bought (unless the conflicting signals from the WH on support to allies turn prospective buyers off). There are some European ships with Aegis (Spanish, Norwegian, and soon German frigates/destroyers) but due to locally developed competing systems many European countries have chosen European systems.

The overall picture right now is almost opposite of what you are claiming: US arms exports to Europe have more than tripled as a response to Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, according to an analysis by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

Shipments of U.S. weapons to Europe rose 233% in the 2020-2024 time frame from the prior five-year period, according to a March 10 report by the Swedish think tank. For the first time in two decades, Europe accounted for the largest share of U.S. arms exports. Europe accounted for 35% of U.S. arms exports, overtaking the Middle East. European NATO countries had 472 combat aircraft on order from the U.S. by the end of 2024, according to SIPRI. US arms exports to Europe triple, boosted by Ukraine aid: SIPRI

This will not last: the massive increase in defense spending Europe will implement over the next 5-10 years will mainly be spent on rebuilding Europe's weapons industries; long-term, this will most likely cause a significant drop in sales of US arms to Europe.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
A reasonable article summarising WMD proliferation due to current IOTUS. Canada and Denmark should note the US has never invaded a country that has nuclear weapons.
Trump’s Actions Could Ignite a New Nuclear Age | RealClearDefense
Nuclear Umbrella is an inherently unreliable concept. I don't know why EuroNATO felt secure under it, and I really hope they don't intend to rely on Fr*nce for it as well.
It sounds nice on paper and all, but if I were POTUS and I saw Lithuania getting nuked - why would I try nuke Russia in return? Not nuking in return means I'm probably spared a nuclear exchange I may not be adequately equipped to even handle. Nuking in return almost guarantees a nuclear exchange.
This is probably THE form of collective defense on which to renege in the moment of truth.
 

Redshift

Active Member
We will see. If the US gets a dem president next who aplogizes for Trumps action and can maintain a non Maga administration for 2-3 terms in a row, then I expect Europe to remain a major American military market. At the end of the day Euro govts are behoden to their own budgets, if the US becomes friednly again and offers cheaper alternatives to German/French made arms, then the cheaper gear will have a market. But this is contigent on US having atleast 2-3 non maga administrations in a row.
Seems unlikely that the Dems will win as MAGA is setting the agenda to rig the elections in it's favour for a long long time, MAGA control of the media is progressing at pace, dissenting (or even mildly skeptical ) voices are being suppressed and liesxare replacing truth at every corner.

I doubt that that Europe will ever trust the USA for a long long time.

Even in your scenario it will be 12 years before confidence might be restored and by then it will most likely be too Kate for the USA to get back in as European firms will be in a much stronger position by then as well as having a much larger share than today.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Seems unlikely that the Dems will win as MAGA is setting the agenda to rig the elections in it's favour for a long long time, MAGA control of the media is progressing at pace, dissenting (or even mildly skeptical ) voices are being suppressed and liesxare replacing truth at every corner.

I doubt that that Europe will ever trust the USA for a long long time.

Even in your scenario it will be 12 years before confidence might be restored and by then it will most likely be too Kate for the USA to get back in as European firms will be in a much stronger position by then as well as having a much larger share than today.
Twelve years...not even close, it will take way longer or never for the reasons you mention. MAGA control of media and more importantly the whole US electoral apparatus may will spell the end for democracy in the land of the free, cough. The other two branches of government, Congress, and the SCOTUS failed miserably in being the checks and balance on the executive branch. America and its allies will suffer for it.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Back in February Denmark announced increase defence spending, reaching more than 3% already in 2025:
Agreement putting Denmark at more than 3 pct. of GDP allocated for defence in 2025 and 2026

Norway will double the fleet of K9, and also increase investment in some other programs. Defence spending is expected to reach 3.3% in 2025
Norway to nearly double its K9 howitzer fleet for around $534 million

Sweden also is ramping up spending, aiming to reach at least 3.5% in 2030, and also increasing spending in 2025. Sweden eyes rise in defence spending to 3.5% of GDP by 2030 | Reuters

Finland will reach 3% in 2029: Finland pledges defense spending increase to 3 percent GDP by 2029 - Breaking Defense

The Nordic countries are gearing up -- slowly, but at least it's happening.

Something else of significance that is happening, is the increased integration of air forces: Four Nordic Air Forces Fighting as One - Norwegian Armed Forces

The NAPC aims to achieve the ability to operate as one force in full-scale joint air operations with day-zero readiness.
A total of roughly 250 modern fighter jets, many of them F-35, operating more and more jointly, should not be underestimated. And with budget increases all over, there will be missiles for all these aircraft. Finland has ordered AARGM-ER, and Norway is ordering JSM (as will Finland). Also, Finland has ordered JASSM-ER for their F-35s, Sweden has ordered Taurus for their Gripen fighters. And SDB I and II are coming to the Nordics of course.

Finland to Acquire 150 AARGM-ER Missiles for Future F-35 Fleet
Finland to sign contract for JASSM-ER cruise missiles for its F-35 fleet
Kongsberg wins $473m contract to supply JSMs for Norway's F-35 fleet
Sweden to Acquire Taurus KEPD-350 ALCM for its Saab JAS39 Gripens - The Aviationist
US clears Norway for $293 million small diameter bomb sale to equip F-35 fleet - Breaking Defense
Finland acquires JDAM and SDB I weapons systems for F-35 fighters
Sweden bolsters air force with Mk82 bomb procurement for Gripen jets
 
Last edited:

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
The Nordic countries have a combined 27 million people and a combined GDP of around 1.5 trillion USD. Nordic Market – Nordic Embassy – International Business Development Consultancy
Australia for instance has a population of around 27 million and a GDP of around 1.7 trillion USD

Not sure how they compare when taking into account PPP however I would guess not too much change since both the Nordics and Australia are in the "high salary" part of the world.

So it seems at least when it comes to air power the Nordics are punching well above their weight.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Nordic countries have a combined 27 million people and a combined GDP of around 1.5 trillion USD. Nordic Market – Nordic Embassy – International Business Development Consultancy
Australia for instance has a population of around 27 million and a GDP of around 1.7 trillion USD

Not sure how they compare when taking into account PPP however I would guess not too much change since both the Nordics and Australia are in the "high salary" part of the world.

So it seems at least when it comes to air power the Nordics are punching well above their weight.
Well... Australia isn't right next to Russia. And even China is really not that close. Defense spending is tied to the geo-strategic reality of your neighborhood.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Well... Australia isn't right next to Russia. And even China is really not that close. Defense spending is tied to the geo-strategic reality of your neighborhood.
Is there any realistic defence spending for Canada (other than WMD) for Canada considering the biggest threat is our ex-ally/friend to the south?
 
Top