The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
The economic benefit of the build could force the MOD's hands if the government see a benefit, which they probably would.
I can't rule it out, just as I can't rule out Keir Starmer ripping off a mask after the election and saying "haha, I was Jeremy Corbyn all along, I'm selling all the military's equipment for scrap!"

Let's look at the actual situation right now. Rishi Sunak is currently weak. He doesn't have the political capital to waste on trying to make Grant Shapps transfer a Type 26 to Norway with nothing for the MoD. Shapps will be looking to his position post-election and will want to be on the Shadow Cabinet, assuming he keeps his seat. If he gives a Type 26 to Norway for nothing, his position with Tory members will probably go down - it will be easy for his opponents to paint him as weak.

A deal with Norway isn't going to win Sunak the election - it won't even help him hold on to seats. In those circumstances I don't think the Navy has any reason to just limply give up a ship it really needs.

Take a look at Navylookout's recent entry on escort availability. It's bad, with ships repeatedly breaking down for the only reason that they're old. Even ships that have been in refit aren't immune to needing to be laid up - see HMS Somerset. There is no scope to redirect ships under build because the Navy already is having to cancel or defer operations due to a lack of ships. Imagine what it will be like by 2028.

Norway has limited options if it wants a high end frigate reasonably soon. You can't just say "oh, we realise we need this really high-spec frigate in five years, just give us some of yours please because Russia". Even if the F110-class was regarded as being adequate, they're being built until 2029 - and the ships they're replacing are even older the the Type 23s, so I don't see Spain giving them a ship early. Is anyone other than Navantia and BAE reasonably in this competition? Another generic MEKO isn't a likely candidate.

Therefore it's fairly certain in my mind Norway will just go with what they think is the best design and price, so long as they can get ships reasonably early in the 2030s onwards.

The best case scenario for Norway would be getting a Type 26 out of the current build queue with a pay-off for the MoD to make up for the delay, whether extra paid refits or money being given for the Type 32. However, the cost of more life-extension work wouldn't be cheap, which is why I think these rumours are at most considering options rather than real plans.

This discussion has all come about from BAE lobbying. It obviously helps their business case if they can offer frigates in a stupidly quick time - BAE couldn't care if the Royal Navy was laid up for the next decade due to ship unavailability so long as they get orders. There is zero evidence they have any political support for delaying frigate orders to the RN.

If there is a follow on to Type 31's then the disruption to numbers from any delay would be relatively minimal.
First, that requires money the Treasury so far has refused to provide. Second, the Type 31 is completely different from the Type 26, and no work on the Type 32 has been conducted. Even if authorisation was given for a Type 31 with Mk41 VLS system inserted at the start, that won't make up for less or late Type 26s.

As for extra capacity, if BAE want to invest more they can. I suppose they could use the existing build hall to construct Type 26s for Norway whilst the new factory would be used for the ships going to the RN. But that doesn't get Norway to a Type 26 ready for 2029.
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, the deal won't really be a vote winner for either Labour or Conservative as all of the ship building is happening in Scotland. And in a sense, I'm sure it would "prove" to the SNP that the yards would be viable post independence and who wants that ?

I'm sure we can have a chat with the Norwegians and iron something out however.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Well, the deal won't really be a vote winner for either Labour or Conservative as all of the ship building is happening in Scotland. And in a sense, I'm sure it would "prove" to the SNP that the yards would be viable post independence and who wants that ?

I'm sure we can have a chat with the Norwegians and iron something out however.
If CSC was faster off the mark I am sure junior would have offered the first RCN build to Norway as deficit reduction but follow on vessels would be difficult. ;)
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Well, the deal won't really be a vote winner for either Labour or Conservative as all of the ship building is happening in Scotland. And in a sense, I'm sure it would "prove" to the SNP that the yards would be viable post independence and who wants that ?
I think that the next (Labour) government would be quite happy for more ship orders in Scotland because they probably wouldn't be signed until after the next general election, and therefore would be able to take credit for them. Certainly it wouldn't hurt their chances to get back to power in the devolved Scottish government in 2026. The SNP are on the ropes with little way off.

I'm sure we can have a chat with the Norwegians and iron something out however.
Absolutely. It's just about expectation management. BAE would like to sell ships already being built for the RN to Norway because it would almost guarantee the contract, assuming the budget for the RNN is approved by their parliament. They put the idea out there, lean on HMG and beg for help because otherwise the UK shipbuilding industry will fail, etc.

If we just explain to Norway that we can't give them ships from batch 1 because they're desperately needed in the RN, I'm sure they'd understand. We might be able to give them ship 5.

If CSC was faster off the mark I am sure junior would have offered the first RCN build to Norway as deficit reduction but follow on vessels would be difficult. ;)
Finally, a benefit of starting construction late!
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think that the next (Labour) government would be quite happy for more ship orders in Scotland because they probably wouldn't be signed until after the next general election, and therefore would be able to take credit for them. Certainly it wouldn't hurt their chances to get back to power in the devolved Scottish government in 2026. The SNP are on the ropes with little way off.



Absolutely. It's just about expectation management. BAE would like to sell ships already being built for the RN to Norway because it would almost guarantee the contract, assuming the budget for the RNN is approved by their parliament. They put the idea out there, lean on HMG and beg for help because otherwise the UK shipbuilding industry will fail, etc.

If we just explain to Norway that we can't give them ships from batch 1 because they're desperately needed in the RN, I'm sure they'd understand. We might be able to give them ship 5.



Finally, a benefit of starting construction late!

The SNP thing, I must admit, I'd forgotten we'd moved away from the frankly incredible moment where the Scottish Conservative party had driven Labour into 3rd place in Scotland to the current situation where ...ah, well, let's summarise for the non-UK audience and say that the waters around them have grown.


Of course, we're not here to discuss politics except where it touches the possible effects on defence but is true to say that a newly elected Scottish Labour government would likely welcome fresh orders from basically out of the blue, well, understatement :) I also suspect that an English Parliament may well be inclined to look favourably on matters as well.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It is of course a UK Parliament. Unlike Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, England does not have its own devolved Parliament. So Scottish, Welsh and Irish MPs get to vote on the purely English issues the Parliament sometimes consider.
 

SD67

Member
Written answers in Parliament 5 days ago


"His Majesty's Government and the Royal Navy are working jointly with BAE Systems on options to support Norway's future Frigate Programme."

Personal take - everyone wants it to happen. Norway is just about the closest ally we have, and in the front line vis a vis Russia. If it's boat 4 (2029 if BAE get their skates on) by then the RN will have an ASW fleet arguably better than they have today, when considered in the round (availability, capability), and it's not as if the boat is going to the other side of the planet.

The new build hall will be a game changer and Sir Simon Lister has talked about subbing out more fabrication work if needed to accelerate.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Xavier from Naval News got the chance to talk to Stellar Systems about the Fearless MRSS, a hybrid UxV Mothership/Amphibious vessel, which they are proposing for the RNs Multi Role Support Ship requirement to replace the 2 LPD, 3 LSL and the Argus in the 2030s.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Xavier from Naval News got the chance to talk to Stellar Systems about the Fearless MRSS, a hybrid UxV Mothership/Amphibious vessel, which they are proposing for the RNs Multi Role Support Ship requirement to replace the 2 LPD, 3 LSL and the Argus in the 2030s.
Watched the clip twice :

5 Inch on the Fo'c'sle.

Bridge roof has what looks like 30mm cannon front & centre, with the x2 others at the waists (P&S). Mast has UK Dragonfire laser half way up

CIWS/Phalanx midships / RAS deck

Another Dragonfire on the Hangar roof Mast, then the ANCILLIA trainable decoy, with the 76/62 SR mount aft centre.

Not forgetting up to x48 VLS cells

A LOT of pie-in-the-sky thinking, but great concept.

SA
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Watched the clip twice :

5 Inch on the Fo'c'sle.

Bridge roof has what looks like 30mm cannon front & centre, with the x2 others at the waists (P&S). Mast has UK Dragonfire laser half way up

CIWS/Phalanx midships / RAS deck

Another Dragonfire on the Hangar roof Mast, then the ANCILLIA trainable decoy, with the 76/62 SR mount aft centre.

Not forgetting up to x48 VLS cells

A LOT of pie-in-the-sky thinking, but great concept.

SA

It's definitely a lot more of a warship than I was expecting as a proposal. There were discussions that a joint effort between the Netherlands and the UK had fallen apart over a difference of spec, that the RN wanted a frigate weapons and sensors fit but I've not found any corroboration so far.

Is if likely that the MRSS could go at least a bit in this direction ?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Watched the clip twice :

5 Inch on the Fo'c'sle.

Bridge roof has what looks like 30mm cannon front & centre, with the x2 others at the waists (P&S). Mast has UK Dragonfire laser half way up

CIWS/Phalanx midships / RAS deck

Another Dragonfire on the Hangar roof Mast, then the ANCILLIA trainable decoy, with the 76/62 SR mount aft centre.

Not forgetting up to x48 VLS cells

A LOT of pie-in-the-sky thinking, but great concept.

SA
Seems like lots of options for AA/drone interceptions. I really like this hybrid concept, would consider giving up 2 CSCs for two of these...but only if I absolutely had to! :p
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
It's definitely a lot more of a warship than I was expecting as a proposal. There were discussions that a joint effort between the Netherlands and the UK had fallen apart over a difference of spec, that the RN wanted a frigate weapons and sensors fit but I've not found any corroboration so far.

Is if likely that the MRSS could go at least a bit in this direction ?
Not small either at 170m and 15,000t.
We are definitely seeing a revolution in warship design, being driven by unmanned drones, a requirement for smaller crews, and the ability to deploy modular systems.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Watched the clip twice :

5 Inch on the Fo'c'sle.

Bridge roof has what looks like 30mm cannon front & centre, with the x2 others at the waists (P&S). Mast has UK Dragonfire laser half way up

CIWS/Phalanx midships / RAS deck

Another Dragonfire on the Hangar roof Mast, then the ANCILLIA trainable decoy, with the 76/62 SR mount aft centre.

Not forgetting up to x48 VLS cells

A LOT of pie-in-the-sky thinking, but great concept.

SA
Love it!

I speculated about ships like this 15-20 years ago.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Interesting propulsion system, pods and counter rotating shafts (electric) in front of the pods. The Xavier video mentions this setup has been used on commercial ferries.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
Interesting propulsion system, pods and counter rotating shafts (electric) in front of the pods. The Xavier video mentions this setup has been used on commercial ferries.
As a armchair amateur, I didn't know this, googled it, first link was pretty informative- first one built in 2004. Says 13% reduction in fuel use, good steering performance

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/review/pdf/e416/e416338.pdf
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member

Positive news that the Royal Navy is putting thought towards filling the Mk41 with missiles that are currently in production, rather than wait for FC-ASW (which may not be ready on time).

I'm guessing that the Japanese Type 07 is a stronger contender. Better range than ASROC and probably with significant stocks that could be shipped to the UK speedily.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member

Positive news that the Royal Navy is putting thought towards filling the Mk41 with missiles that are currently in production, rather than wait for FC-ASW (which may not be ready on time).

I'm guessing that the Japanese Type 07 is a stronger contender. Better range than ASROC and probably with significant stocks that could be shipped to the UK speedily.

Can it be easily adapted to carrying Stingray ? The request specifically states "UK LWT" so this isn't going to be MOTS - there will be tinkering involved.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Can it be easily adapted to carrying Stingray ? The request specifically states "UK LWT" so this isn't going to be MOTS - there will be tinkering involved.
If the Type 07 won't be able to fire Sting Ray, would ASROC? The former is essentially an evolution of the latter. Sting Ray is lighter than the Mark 54, maybe a touch wider.

There aren't a lot of choices for something that fires from the Mk41. At the moment it's ASROC, Type 07 or something completely new (and therefore expensive/risky). Given the Type 07 already has a longer range, I don't see what the point would be of Lockheed Martin a fat wodge of cash in the hope they'd produce something with sufficient reach.

In my mind for ASROC to win the contract, there'd have to be some sort of design flaw with the Type 07 that meant it could not be adapted to fit Sting Ray - which seems unlikely to me, not least because it already fires two different types of torpedoes.
 
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