The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[StobieWan]

One of the two RN failures was a missed or incorrectly performed procedure - the missile headed off in the wrong direction and the flight was terminated under range command. so we can separate that out as not related to the quality of the missile or it's components.

That gives you one failure vs I think something like five or six tests by the RN over the years.

All the missiles are stored and maintained at the same facility, and RN missiles are pulled from randomly selected items.

I don't think we have enough dots to start joining anything up here.

 

[StobieWan]

Minor fire on the QE over the weekend:

Probe launched after fire breaks out on board HMS Queen Elizabeth on way to Rosyth

The Royal Navy said the isolated fire on the aircraft carrier had been quickly brought under control.

www.forces.net

Naturally social media is taking a calm and measured stance on the matter.

 

[Redlands18]

Minor fire on the QE over the weekend:

Probe launched after fire breaks out on board HMS Queen Elizabeth on way to Rosyth

The Royal Navy said the isolated fire on the aircraft carrier had been quickly brought under control.

www.forces.net

Naturally social media is taking a calm and measured stance on the matter.

Someone burnt the toast in the Officers Mess? never let Officers anywhere near cooking appliances

 

[StobieWan]

Off topic but that does remind me of a legendary story from one of my former workplaces - which was a large car and van plant which had its own plant protection staff, and staff were directed not to call the emergency services, but the internal line instead as their response times were much quicker. The fire truck for the plant was a massive Chevy V8 brute, straight out of a 1970's film, and had about 3000 miles on it despite being over twenty years old.

One day an internal smoke alarm went off in the datacentre block and off our intrepid heroes set, only for the firetruck to shed its transmission 300 yards short of the block, leaving a smoking trail of hot oil and metal pieces. The crew leap out, fully clad in all the usual breathing gear, lugging fire extinguishers and breathing through their ears as it's a warm July day.

300 yards on foot, and sweating like a marine in a spelling test, they boot the door down to find some IT person digging bits of burnt toast out of the toaster...

They were not impressed.

 

[Systems Adict]

Saw this at lunchtime today & thought I'd share...

Norway looking at integrating into Type 26 build program ?

SA

 

[StobieWan]

Saw this at lunchtime today & thought I'd share...

Norway looking at integrating into Type 26 build program ?

SA

I saw that too - was genuinely perplexed (but pleased) that they'd be looking for a UK built ship - I suspect if it comes off, any government of the day will nod vigorously and approve the delay. It'd be a huge boost for UK ship building.

 

[John Fedup]

This link discusses the new enhancements by BAE to improve production. A 96 month first of class down to 60 months according to link but a another link (which I can't find now) referenced an eventual 12 months once production is underway on subsequent builds. Certainly helps with a possible Norway purchase. Might interest Canada and Australia on a couple of quicker deliveries if "stuff" hits the fan....well maybe not Canada, junior likes to wallow in"stuff".

BAE target dramatic reduction in frigate build time (ukdefencejournal.org.uk)

 

[Systems Adict]

This link discusses the new enhancements by BAE to improve production. A 96 month first of class down to 60 months according to link but a another link (which I can't find now) referenced an eventual 12 months once production is underway on subsequent builds. Certainly helps with a possible Norway purchase. Might interest Canada and Australia on a couple of quicker deliveries if "stuff" hits the fan....well maybe not Canada, junior likes to wallow in"stuff".

BAE target dramatic reduction in frigate build time (ukdefencejournal.org.uk)

I think the reduction might be something to do with the £300M investment between the new, completely undercover build hall & the other new manufacturing aspect that they're bringing in (such as Robots to do the welding). That sort of technology can reduce faults, give better quality / consistency & ramping workload up to 24 hrs a day, with a x4 shift patterns (day/backshift/nightshift & weekend warriors), gives the ability to get the hull together quicker. That could mean that DELIVERY could be every 12 months by ship 8 (with a premise that if they knock all the bugs outta the system, they could be there by the start of ships 7 & 8).

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I saw that too - was genuinely perplexed (but pleased) that they'd be looking for a UK built ship - I suspect if it comes off, any government of the day will nod vigorously and approve the delay. It'd be a huge boost for UK ship building.

However, it would mean a cost to the Royal Navy due to having to keep a number of Type 23s in service even longer. So at the least BAE would need to make it worth it our while by paying for that extension cost - if not also discounting the cost of the final Type 26.

Remember, MoD would have to agree to a delay in the frigate not HMG. And the Treasury doesn't give MoD a cut of profits from arms sales. There's no incentive for the Navy to cripple itself without a quid-pro-quo.

In short, I think BAE would love for this to happen, but it's unlikely. It would mean Norway paying a big premium to get a ship early, as no one else can provide them with a high-end frigate in the timescale they want.

More likely would be Norway slipping in with the batch 2 ships. That would put less pressure on the surface fleet. Maybe another shipyard could help speed construction by taking on some work.

 

[Redlands18]

The Norwegian Frigate project is going to be quite competitive, there are a number of other options from established production Lines.
French FDI
Dutch-Belgian ASWF
German F-126
Spanish F-110
Italian/US Constellation

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

However, it would mean a cost to the Royal Navy due to having to keep a number of Type 23s in service even longer. So at the least BAE would need to make it worth it our while by paying for that extension cost - if not also discounting the cost of the final Type 26.

Remember, MoD would have to agree to a delay in the frigate not HMG. And the Treasury doesn't give MoD a cut of profits from arms sales. There's no incentive for the Navy to cripple itself without a quid-pro-quo.

In short, I think BAE would love for this to happen, but it's unlikely. It would mean Norway paying a big premium to get a ship early, as no one else can provide them with a high-end frigate in the timescale they want.

More likely would be Norway slipping in with the batch 2 ships. That would put less pressure on the surface fleet. Maybe another shipyard could help speed construction by taking on some work.

The Fridtjof Nansen-class vessels are all commissioned after 2005, and are still modern and advanced. Are there any plans for a modernization/midlife upgrade?

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The Fridtjof Nansen-class vessels are all commissioned after 2005, and are still modern and advanced. Are there any plans for a modernization/midlife upgrade?

No idea. I've just followed this discussion referring to Norway saying they need a new frigate by 2029. I suppose if BAE said they could deliver by 2030 or 2031, Oslo might consider some sort of project to keep them going. It is a fairly ambitious timeline given they haven't even got an agreed design, let alone a shipyard with capacity to slot them in that fast.

 

[StevoJH]

However, it would mean a cost to the Royal Navy due to having to keep a number of Type 23s in service even longer. So at the least BAE would need to make it worth it our while by paying for that extension cost - if not also discounting the cost of the final Type 26.

Not necessarily. That could depend on whether there ends up being a Type 31 Batch 2 or Type 32.

When are all the Type 31's supposed to be completed by?

 

[Redlands18]

The Fridtjof Nansen-class vessels are all commissioned after 2005, and are still modern and advanced. Are there any plans for a modernization/midlife upgrade?

Norway Unveils New Defence Plan, Commits to Frigate Program - Naval News
I posted this recently on the Norwegian Navy thread, Norway has a requirement for up to six Frigates, following the loss of the Helge Ingstad in 2019 they are down to four. The remaining ships lives may be getting used up faster than planned and the Arctic Sea would be pretty hard on ships.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Not necessarily. That could depend on whether there ends up being a Type 31 Batch 2 or Type 32.

No, it really would be bad. Most of the Type 23s should have gone by now. Four of them are already 30+ years old. The youngest is 20+ years old.

The Type 26 should have started building in the 2000s or at least early 2010s, if previous governments had actually got on with it instead of repeatedly kicking it into the long grass.

Even with the current schedule we're going to have a capability gap. Further delays because ships were being sold overseas could leave the Royal Navy without sufficient escorts in an emergency. We'd have no spare capacity, so one ship's maintenance overrunning or it having an accident would mean game over.

Honestly if Norway has an urgent requirement for frigates that's on them. If they want something high-end they're going to have to wait for it. Anything someone could churn out in a couple of years would be unlikely to fit their requirements.

When are all the Type 31's supposed to be completed by?

2030, but that's irrelevant because some of them are replacing ships that have already been retired.

 

[StobieWan]

Well, the report says it might delay one UK frigate - that's doable surely ? I get that the Type 23's are all well beyond their sell-by date but all the GP variants will have been replaced by Type 31 by then, and there'd be some Type 26 in the water by then. The build cycle is also getting shorter.

And yes, agreed, the Type 26 build should have started wayyyy earlier.

 

[John Fedup]

I wonder what pressure BAE will face if Australia and Canada want their assistance in speeding up builds? Australia will be more critical, both from need and BAE’s AUKUS involvement.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Well, the report says it might delay one UK frigate - that's doable surely ?

It's doable in the sense it could be done, but it's extra risk for the Royal Navy at no benefit. Hence my point that they would want their pound of flesh, whether the cost of keeping a frigate in service longer if not a Brucie Bonus on top.

It would make more sense to have Norway just be patient and start accepting new frigates in the early 2030s when there was more capacity.

 

[StobieWan]

I wonder what pressure BAE will face if Australia and Canada want their assistance in speeding up builds? Australia will be more critical, both from need and BAE’s AUKUS involvement.

Both are running their own yards so I don't think there's any comparison. UK build times are set to fall as the UK Type 26 yard is improving their facilities tremendously.

Also, the delays with the Australian program seem to stem from changing requirements, adding additional equipment, all the usual stuff related to builds moving to the right.

 

[StevoJH]

It's doable in the sense it could be done, but it's extra risk for the Royal Navy at no benefit. Hence my point that they would want their pound of flesh, whether the cost of keeping a frigate in service longer if not a Brucie Bonus on top.

It would make more sense to have Norway just be patient and start accepting new frigates in the early 2030s when there was more capacity.

The economic benefit of the build could force the MOD's hands if the government see a benefit, which they probably would.

If there is a follow on to Type 31's then the disruption to numbers from any delay would be relatively minimal. And if BAe can complete one ship every 12 months, the RN still gets a Type 26 every second year which is probably not a horrible thing if Type 3x's are being worked up and commissioned at the same time.

Is there scope/room for BAe to further enlarge its Glasgow operations if that was desired?

Do they still have two yards on the Clyde?