Hamas-Israeli War 2023

[Ananda]

Because the slogan says "Palestine" not "Palestinians".

It clearly refers to the geographical location and not the people living in it (for me because that is what it actually says).

What should we call people that live in land of Palestine, if not Palestinians ? Palestine is always inhabited by Chistian, Muslim and Jews for centuries even milenia. Contrary to some idea that circulate especially in Right Wings West, there are always Jews that stay in Middle East. Off course it is burried by Zionism that try to sell "idea" Arabs evicting Jews from Middle East centuries ago.

From River to The sea is used by both Israelis and Palestinians politicians. So those who say the slogan is antisemitic clearly ridiculously cherry picking to side track only Israel has the right to live between river and sea. The Idea for Palestinians being free is clearly antisemitic and worthy to be call genocide to Jews. Burying the fact before Euro Zionist come, there're already Jews in Palestine. Just not Jews that live in Euro Zionism values.



After all this is antisemitics now begin to be push. Those who doesn't follow and against Israel Zionism agenda, is antisemitic.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770469645314580892

This is what IDF try to sell whose Hamassies to the world. Basically everyone in Gaza, including civilians that try to find food and doctors that dare to give medical treatment in Gaza.

 

[Redshift]

We can agree to disagree. Logic like that led to words like "yolo" being included in the dictionary. Not a positive thing in my opinion. I'm going to continue to adhere to language based on inherent meanings and the linguistic context for the term, while disregarding actual usage even if common, when it is formally improper.

There are no inherent meanings for words just the ones ascribed to them at any particular time, the meanings of words change , usually by usage that Is just a fact.

Shakespeare's English just isn't the same as modern English, Old English is barely the same language. Words come and go as do the meanings of words.

Man, woman, gender, gay, queer, all of those have changed or acquired new meanings in the last 50 to 100 years and some have changed more than once.

English dialects just in England alone have different sentence structures, they are all valid and there is no single "real" version of English.

It is therefore important to understand what a word meant when it was written or else run the danger of attributing an incorrect understanding by today's meaning.

What a gay day had a very different meaning in 18:0
We should call them Palastinians.

The slogan refers to Palestine NOT Palastinians, that was my point. One is a state the other is a people.

I

 

[Redshift]

What should we call people that live in land of Palestine, if not Palestinians ? Palestine is always inhabited by Chistian, Muslim and Jews for centuries even milenia. Contrary to some idea that circulate especially in Right Wings West, there are always Jews that stay in Middle East. Off course it is burried by Zionism that try to sell "idea" Arabs evicting Jews from Middle East centuries ago.

From River to The sea is used by both Israelis and Palestinians politicians. So those who say the slogan is antisemitic clearly ridiculously cherry picking to side track only Israel has the right to live between river and sea. The Idea for Palestinians being free is clearly antisemitic and worthy to be call genocide to Jews. Burying the fact before Euro Zionist come, there're already Jews in Palestine. Just not Jews that live in Euro Zionism values.

View attachment 51227

After all this is antisemitics now begin to be push. Those who doesn't follow and against Israel Zionism agenda, is antisemitic.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770469645314580892

This is what IDF try to sell whose Hamassies to the world. Basically everyone in Gaza, including civilians that try to find food and doctors that dare to give medical treatment in Gaza.

You really didn't read my post at all did you?

I was explaining that the phrase can, and is, interpreted many different ways.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

I'm glad you let it out of your system @Ananda .

Back to the topic. It is noteworthy that the IDF has intensified its assassinations campaign against Hamas and PIJ leadership.
I do not believe the IDF would intentionally avoid assassinating leadership unless those are key to hostage release efforts, but the number of assassinations certainly peaked recently. Therefore I assume it is a result of a new tactical reality.
As the IDF has pretty much gone through the entire Gaza barring Rafah and the humanitarian zone, significant operational Hamas infrastructure was dismantled and IDF's own local intelligence capabilities were solidified.

There also appear to be fewer reports of Hamas stealing aid. This is definitely in part because Hamas's own combat capabilities were significantly downgraded and its manpower reduced, but I believe it also has to do with the establishment of power by local clans supported by the IDF.

 

[Redshift]

There are no inherent meanings for words just the ones ascribed to them at any particular time, the meanings of words change , usually by usage that Is just a fact.

Shakespeare's English just isn't the same as modern English, Old English is barely the same language. Words come and go as do the meanings of words.

Man, woman, gender, gay, queer, all of those have changed or acquired new meanings in the last 50 to 100 years and some have changed more than once.

English dialects just in England alone have different sentence structures, they are all valid and there is no single "real" version of English.

It is therefore important to understand what a word meant when it was written or else run the danger of attributing an incorrect understanding by today's meaning.

What a gay day had a very different meaning in 18:0


We should call them Palastinians.

The slogan refers to Palestine NOT Palastinians, that was my point. One is a state the other is a people.

I

Oh dear I have really mixed my posts up.

 

[Ananda]

really didn't read my post at all did you?

Oo I read it, my post basically responding on you seperating Palestine and Palestinians. There's no state without people, they are inseparable.

 

[Redshift]

Oo I read it, my post basically responding on you seperating Palestine and Palestinians. There's no state without people, they are inseparable.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"

And

"From the river to the sea, Palestinians will be free"

Convey very different meanings, particularly in the context of the two state solution, and in the context of the various interpretations and usage of elements of these phrases from all sides as demonstrated by the three examples that I posted.

 

[Ananda]

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"

And

"From the river to the sea, Palestinians will be free"

Convey very different meanings, particularly in the context of the two state solution, and in the context of the various interpretations and usage of elements of these phrases from all sides as demonstrated by the three examples that I posted.

No it's not if the talks of Palestinian is People of Palestine. As why I put factual conditions that as during British Mandate and Otoman Palestine, all the people living there call Palestinians. Regardless their religions and ethnicities. So Palestine and Palestinians is inseparable.

 

[Redshift]

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"

And

"From the river to the sea, Palestinians will be free"

Convey very different meanings, particularly in the context of the two state solution, and in the context of the various interpretations and usage of elements of these phrases from all sides as demonstrated by the three examples that I posted.

There most defini

No it's not if the talks of Palestinian is People of Palestine. As why I put factual conditions that as during British Mandate and Otoman Palestine, all the people living there call Palestinians. Regardless their religions and ethnicities. So Palestine and Palestinians is inseparable.

As you say correctly "people of Palastine are Palastinians"

"Palastine and Palastinians is inseparable" may be your emotional belief but it is not correct.

Are all people that live in Britain British?

Are all British people living in Britain?

The fact that someone once said something does not make it an unchanging fact.

I don't understand your belligerence here, I am merely trying to point out why different people have different interpretations of statements, you are simply demanding that everyone adheres to your way of thinking on the subject.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Yet another public execution in Jenin. Something tells me we'll see some form of medium intensity military operation there within about a year or less.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770863674162307446

IDF Spox says 600 terrorists were detained and 140 eliminated in Shifa op. Many of the detainees were reportedly middle management which makes them exceptionally valuable - intelligence-wise.
While it has revealed the identities of some terrorists and high ranking figures, many remain anonymous.
I assume this may be to either sow chaos among remaining Hamasses as they no longer have a proper communication array to give them a real time picture of who's alive and who isn't, or to ensure their and their family's safety in exchange for information.

 

[Ananda]

don't understand your belligerence here, I am merely trying to point out why different people have different interpretations of statements, you are simply demanding that everyone adheres to your way of thinking on the subject.

As usual you're playing the one that trying to twist other people opinion to yours, not mine. I'm not belligerence, however questioning your purpose on separating Palestinian from Palestine as separate issues. Like I said State and people are inseparable. Talking them as separate is very questionable. Especially sensitive issue on who can live in Palestine as their people.

Off course people that live in Britain are British. Even Immigrants that already live in generations in Britain become British. It is different with expats that live on one state for temporary.

 

[Redshift]

As usual you're playing the one that trying to twist other people opinion to yours, not mine. I'm not belligerence, however questioning your purpose on separating Palestinian from Palestine as separate issues. Like I said State and people are inseparable. Talking them as separate is very questionable. Especially sensitive issue on who can live in Palestine as their people.

Off course people that live in Britain are British. Even Immigrants that already live in generations in Britain become British. It is different with expats that live on one state for temporary.

I am not making a deep philosophical point about sensitive issues , in fact I'm not even really giving an opinion I am trying to explain to you why some people read the same words as you and come to a different conclusion to you.

There are plenty of Irish people living in Britain who are not British and definitely live here, yes live here and don't just visit and they are definitely Irish, just like Welsh people in England are Welsh and English people in Wales are English.

 

[Ananda]

I'm not even really giving an opinion I am trying to explain to you why some people read the same words as you and come to a different conclusion to you.

People always have different opinions on every subject. Off course they're can have different interpretation. I'm not questioning that, but questioning your opinion that People and State are separate.

You are bringing Irish to British, when British include Scottish, Welsh, English and even Irish. Unless you are not calculating Northern Ireland as part of Britain. Indonesian are people of Indonesia, even tough we have hundreds of ethnicities and races. Even Indians and Chinese that live in Indonesia for generations already become Indonesian. So does many ethnicities, races and religions in India and China, all are becoming Indians and Chinese. Unless you think all Britain immigrants will never be British.

So why Palestinian and Palestine is separate issue ? When people of Palestine is Palestinian no matter race, religion and ethnicities. Separate them, can be seen not acknowledging them the right to live in Palestine as their people. That's what the Pro Palestinian talk on the issue of 'from river to sea'.

 

[Redshift]

People always have different opinions on every subject. Off course they're can have different interpretation. I'm not questioning that, but questioning your opinion that People and State are separate.

You are bringing Irish to British, when British include Scottish, Welsh, English and even Irish. Unless you are not calculating Northern Ireland as part of Britain. Indonesian are people of Indonesia, even tough we have hundreds of ethnicities and races. Even Indians and Chinese that live in Indonesia for generations already become Indonesian. So does many ethnicities, races and religions in India and China, all are becoming Indians and Chinese. Unless you think all Britain immigrants will never be British.

So why Palestinian and Palestine is separate issue ? When people of Palestine is Palestinian no matter race, religion and ethnicities. Separate them, can be seen not acknowledging them the right to live in Palestine as their people. That's what the Pro Palestinian talk on the issue of 'from river to sea'.

Northern Irish people are British, but they can also claim to be Irish.

Irish people from the Republic of Ireland are not British, they are Irish.

You are basically saying that you know exactly what everyone who uses the phrase "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" and that they mean exactly the same as you do. I am saying that you do not know that and that some people used very different definitions of the same phrase , and I cited three sources to support that The Guardian, Al Jazeera and the Washington Post

 

[Ananda]

am saying that you do not know that and that some people used very different definitions of the same phrase , and I cited three sources to support that The Guardian, Al Jazeera and the Washington Post

Like I said I don't questions that people have different perceptions and perspective. What I'm questioning is your attempt to separate Palestinian to Palestine. State and people in it is inseparable. Like Indian with India, Indonesian with Indonesia and even Britain with British. Separating them open to debate on whose have the right to live within one state.

For the case of Palestinian and Palestine, separating both issensitive issue. Separating them, raise question on intention. That's what you can't accept.

 

[Redshift]

Like I said I don't questions that people have different perceptions and perspective. What I'm questioning is your attempt to separate Palestinian to Palestine. State and people in it is inseparable. Like Indian with India, Indonesian with Indonesia and even Britain with British. Separating them open to debate on whose have the right to live within one state.

For the case of Palestinian and Palestine, separating both issensitive issue. Separating them, raise question on intention. That's what you can't accept.

"Even Britain with British" please show more contempt you just aren't trying hard enough.

I am not attempting to do anything, other than educate you, .

did you actually read the three links on the phrase that I posted? No of course not you are too entrenched in your position and now all that you can do is repeat your same old comment.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

"Even Britain with British" please show more contempt you just aren't trying hard enough.

I am not attempting to do anything, other than educate you, .

did you actually read the three links on the phrase that I posted? No of course not you are too entrenched in your position and now all that you can do is repeat your same old comment.

Best leave it there. I doubt reason is what will get through to him.

 

[Ananda]

doubt reason is what will get through to him.

Definitely not your reasoning, which basically no reason at all except everyone else that doesn't agree is antisemitic.

not attempting to do anything, other than educate you, .

So am I on trying to educate you. Clearly you're back on playing putting your own word to other post. Clearly you are that shown contempt.

 

[Redshift]

definitely not your reasoning.




So am I on trying to educate you.

No, you aren't you are just continuously repeating your opinion, and saying that other opinions and interpretations are wrong.

 

[Ananda]

aren't you are just continuously repeating your opinion, and saying that other opinions and interpretations are wrong.

My my, aren't you are the one that saying other are wrong from begining and arrogantly try to 'educate' other.

Btw I see your link, and like I said I'm not debating everyone has opinions and interpretation. Again what I'm questioning is your attempt to separate Palestinian and Palestine. Something you are clearly side tracking. Now who's entrenched on his opinion and from begining already said other wrong.