Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Captain Matchbox]

The mogami/FFM surely is a very attractive option with its extremely low crewing requirements (90). Pretty amazing how the larger FFM also has the same crewing requirement. This is already a massive issue. Might "owe" the Japs a little after the Soryu debacle.

The fact their role includes mine warfare with a OQQ-11 mine hunting sonar and stern launched USV. This would cover the gap in mine warfare.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I somehow can't see the German Boxer Buy happening in this regard.

They are connected, but separate. I expect the Germans to keep to the deal. There will be some disappointment, but I think there is more understanding. Germans are professional. Germans also understand that the world is changing. I expect this will land differently within Germany, less sulking, more why aren't we doubling our naval combatants too.

NVL isn't the only ship builder in Germany. Their relationship isn't like Naval group. The OPV selection, well we built 6, at two yards, and then SHTF and we are now looking at a tier 2 combatant that carries as many missiles as Germanys most capable war ship. It happens. It wasn't like NVL sat around for like four years, designed nothing, built nothing and charged Australia 5 billion and the only local content was pizza and shame.

I wonder if there will be any pull through of ANZAC equipment.

I bet the 5", and radar probably the VLS and missiles, torpedo's. Decoys, coms, the normal bits and bobs that don't have to be shiny and new and will still be usable in 4-5 years in the future. I also hear that she will be cannibalised for mechanical spares for the remainder. I also expect the Anzacs to get the living crap flogged out of them over the next 5 years and our shelves are bare.

Don't sell Victoria, I live here. Besides, in it's current state it wouldn't be worth much. Lol

The minister hasn't address big issues like crewing, paying for all this. To be fair, its just announced, and not even selected. I believe the Government is in talks with Taylor Swift.

Seriously though, we are at the point now where things like conscription and war bonds may be valid future planning initiatives to be implemented by 2027. We might as well have announced 50 light frigates.

This should be seen not as just getting Gucci kit because of dreams, militarism and nationalism. The government now believes this is the minimum we need to secure Australia and her immediate interests. Arguably this is more than we can build, man or buy before the conflict arrives.

Albanese overseeing the largest expansion of the ADF since WW2, perhaps ever, has overtones of Curtin. We are literally running head long into 1941.

 

[vonnoobie]

My 2 cents would be on the Mogami, be it the 16 cell or 32 cell versions either is a step up over the Anzac's. Its got the size which means it is future proofed. It's also something that is gaining traction in our region between Japan's 22 batch 1 and 2's, and the 8 batch 1's for Indonesia, 11 batch 1/2's Mogami's for Australia would not hurt at all.

In regard's to fit out, Well nothing to say we won't buy the overseas build as is designed (except for thing's such as power outlet's etc) and built for them, to speed up delivery and just modify/refit them later on.

One thing that has me wondering is the drum beat/life span of the ships, With the time frame given for the 6 hunters puts time average between each ship at roughly 2 years... Assuming similar time frames for the Hobart replacement... if they are still talking continuous ship building is some one thinking of fleet ship ages of around 18 to 20 years rather then 30+?

 

[Armchair]

Evolved Seasparrow Missile (ESSM) | Missile Threat (csis.org)
I wouldn't be writing off the area AD capability of any ship that is carrying up to 64 ESSM Blk 2 with a range of 50km and its own active illuminator.

There is some discussion of the ANZAC’s limitations in this regard earlier in the thread I think by Pusser01, I may have misread it.

In any case a vessel that is intended for long range strike will need to be protected against ballistic missile threats and aircraft with standoff weapons (preferably before those weapons are launched). There will be more suitable RAN vessels for that. GP Frigates however should add greatly to protection against surface and sub surface threats.

In short the LOCSVs seem intended to remedy the magazine limitations of the DDG and FFG (that a lot of people, not me) would “write off”. It seems to me the implied doctrine from the (limited) announcement is to strengthen task forces rather than have widely distributed shooters (a role that would be filled by SSNs presumably).

 

[Redlands18]

They are connected, but separate. I expect the Germans to keep to the deal. There will be some disappointment, but I think there is more understanding. Germans are professional. Germans also understand that the world is changing. I expect this will land differently within Germany, less sulking, more why aren't we doubling our naval combatants too.

NVL isn't the only ship builder in Germany. Their relationship isn't like Naval group. The OPV selection, well we built 6, at two yards, and then SHTF and we are now looking at a tier 2 combatant that carries as many missiles as Germanys most capable war ship. It happens. It wasn't like NVL sat around for like four years, designed nothing, built nothing and charged Australia 5 billion and the only local content was pizza and shame.

Blohm+Voss
It is somewhat confusing with German shipbuilding and the MEKO designs. The MEKO's are designed by Blohm+Voss which is part of the NVL Group but all MEKO ships with the odd K-130 being an exception are built by TKMS.

 

[iambuzzard]

They are connected, but separate. I expect the Germans to keep to the deal. There will be some disappointment, but I think there is more understanding. Germans are professional. Germans also understand that the world is changing. I expect this will land differently within Germany, less sulking, more why aren't we doubling our naval combatants too.

NVL isn't the only ship builder in Germany. Their relationship isn't like Naval group. The OPV selection, well we built 6, at two yards, and then SHTF and we are now looking at a tier 2 combatant that carries as many missiles as Germanys most capable war ship. It happens. It wasn't like NVL sat around for like four years, designed nothing, built nothing and charged Australia 5 billion and the only local content was pizza and shame.


I bet the 5", and radar probably the VLS and missiles, torpedo's. Decoys, coms, the normal bits and bobs that don't have to be shiny and new and will still be usable in 4-5 years in the future. I also hear that she will be cannibalised for mechanical spares for the remainder. I also expect the Anzacs to get the living crap flogged out of them over the next 5 years and our shelves are bare.


The minister hasn't address big issues like crewing, paying for all this. To be fair, its just announced, and not even selected. I believe the Government is in talks with Taylor Swift.

Seriously though, we are at the point now where things like conscription and war bonds may be valid future planning initiatives to be implemented by 2027. We might as well have announced 50 light frigates.

This should be seen not as just getting Gucci kit because of dreams, militarism and nationalism. The government now believes this is the minimum we need to secure Australia and her immediate interests. Arguably this is more than we can build, man or buy before the conflict arrives.

Albanese overseeing the largest expansion of the ADF since WW2, perhaps ever, has overtones of Curtain. We are literally running head long into 1941.

Stingray, Taylor Swift could buy us a fleet 10 times the size!!!!

 

[Anthony_B_78]

One point I would add to this discussion is when do we actually expect things to get better, so to speak?

So we're down to 10 ships now with the Anzac set to be decommissioned. We know there are upgrades for the other ships and that will take them out of the water here and there so we'll be down to maybe eight at any one time, if not less, for some years to come. It's possible the Arunta might be retired too, lowering the surface fleet down to nine ships.

From 2030 we get the first new frigate from an overseas yard, another in 2031, and a third in 2032. The first Hunter in 2034 and they come in two-year intervals. The other domestic built frigates, meanwhile, may start being delivered from 2033? Or more likely later? And what intervals will they come at?

Realistically, the first eight in total of the new frigates and the Hunters are going to replace one for one the Anzacs. You will have three Hunters by 2039, how many of the other frigates - the three built overseas, maybe two built here? More?

Is it realistic, pessimistic or optimistic to think that in 15 years from today we might again have a surface fleet of 11 ships?

 

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

Blohm+Voss
It is somewhat confusing with German shipbuilding and the MEKO designs. The MEKO's are designed by Blohm+Voss which is part of the NVL Group but all MEKO ships with the odd K-130 being an exception are built by TKMS.

Blohm & Voss once was a shipyard with its own engineering (they've designed the first MEKOs and build them).
They were then divided between tkMS (engineering) and NVL (shipbuilding).
K130 (as well as F125) were developed by the "ARGE" K130/F125.
ARGE stands for Arbeitsgemeinschaft (=joint working cooperation).
The ARGE consists of tkMS & NVL (and GNYK regarding K130).
In other Words: NVL & tkMS have developed the K130 & F125 together.
tkMS doesn't cooperate with NVL regarding Exports.

 

[Morgo]

The Spanish government is looking into a valley of death and possibly the implosion of its ship building work force and possibly the break down of the Spanish state when combined with other issues.

Then we should be poaching their workforce.

Hola amigos! Welcome to [insert Osborne or Henderson here]!

 

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

They are connected, but separate. I expect the Germans to keep to the deal. There will be some disappointment, but I think there is more understanding. Germans are professional. Germans also understand that the world is changing. I expect this will land differently within Germany, less sulking, more why aren't we doubling our naval combatants too.

NVL isn't the only ship builder in Germany. Their relationship isn't like Naval group. The OPV selection, well we built 6, at two yards, and then SHTF and we are now looking at a tier 2 combatant that carries as many missiles as Germanys most capable war ship. It happens. It wasn't like NVL sat around for like four years, designed nothing, built nothing and charged Australia 5 billion and the only local content was pizza and shame.


I bet the 5", and radar probably the VLS and missiles, torpedo's. Decoys, coms, the normal bits and bobs that don't have to be shiny and new and will still be usable in 4-5 years in the future. I also hear that she will be cannibalised for mechanical spares for the remainder. I also expect the Anzacs to get the living crap flogged out of them over the next 5 years and our shelves are bare.


The minister hasn't address big issues like crewing, paying for all this. To be fair, its just announced, and not even selected. I believe the Government is in talks with Taylor Swift.

Seriously though, we are at the point now where things like conscription and war bonds may be valid future planning initiatives to be implemented by 2027. We might as well have announced 50 light frigates.

This should be seen not as just getting Gucci kit because of dreams, militarism and nationalism. The government now believes this is the minimum we need to secure Australia and her immediate interests. Arguably this is more than we can build, man or buy before the conflict arrives.

Albanese overseeing the largest expansion of the ADF since WW2, perhaps ever, has overtones of Curtain. We are literally running head long into 1941.

There's actually a 50:50 Chance regarding the Boxer buy. And I somehow can't see Germany being unprofessional if they stop the procurement.
Anyway: F126 & F127 will basically double the amount of serious surface Combatants.

 

[Redlands18]

One point I would add to this discussion is when do we actually expect things to get better, so to speak?

So we're down to 10 ships now with the Anzac set to be decommissioned. We know there are upgrades for the other ships and that will take them out of the water here and there so we'll be down to maybe eight at any one time, if not less, for some years to come. It's possible the Arunta might be retired too, lowering the surface fleet down to nine ships.

From 2030 we get the first new frigate from an overseas yard, another in 2031, and a third in 2032. The first Hunter in 2034 and they come in two-year intervals. The other domestic built frigates, meanwhile, may start being delivered from 2033? Or more likely later? And what intervals will they come at?

Realistically, the first eight in total of the new frigates and the Hunters are going to replace one for one the Anzacs. You will have three Hunters by 2039, how many of the other frigates - the three built overseas, maybe two built here? More?

Is it realistic, pessimistic or optimistic to think that in 15 years from today we might again have a surface fleet of 11 ships?

In 2035 under this plan the fleet will look something like.
3 Hobart
1 Hunter
4 Lt Frigate
2-4 Anzacs
By 2040
3 Hobart with replacements ordered.
3-4 Hunter
7-11 Lt Frigate
2-3 LOSV

Before we get too excited the last time, we had a review that recommended a fleet the size of this review was in 1987 with the Dibb report and if that had had been followed through the fleet would look something like this in 2024.
8 Collins
8 Hobarts or something similar in capability
8 Anzacs
9 Corvettes

 

[GregorZ]

As I understand the LHD are able to take 2 x 8 cell VLS?
If that’s the case, would/should the RAN consider fitting the VLS off the ANZACs as they retire and fit a CEC so the Hobarts and Hunters can tap into these? An extra 64 ESSM block II for the LHD escorts to use would be a good step in addressing missile/VLS shortfalls, and also provides distrubuted firepower.

 

[aussienscale]

The larger FFM has been optimised for AAW compared to the Mogami though and the requirement for the GP Frigate is primarily ASW.
10 years is a very long time in politics and everyone involved in the subs have long since moved on.

The other potential issue that was also a factor in the subs, the Japanese defence machine has no experience building and exporting for different customers and their requirements, domestic consumption only, they have said the first 3 to be built overseas then Australia for the remainder.

That will also entail them setting up a foreign yard for the remainder of the build, something they have not done before. Not saying they can't or would not be able to, just a big consideration for this program.

Cheers

Edit: just adding this link, the only one I could find with some decent info on the FFM, in Japanese, but Google translate does a decent job, it also has a good comparison chart as well.

新型FFM - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

 

[aussienscale]

As I understand the LHD are able to take 2 x 8 cell VLS?
If that’s the case, would/should the RAN consider fitting the VLS off the ANZACs as they retire and fit a CEC so the Hobarts and Hunters can tap into these? An extra 64 ESSM block II for the LHD escorts to use would be a good step in addressing missile/VLS shortfalls, and also provides distrubuted firepower.

There is space and weight reserve in the original design and as built for Spain in the JC1.

That space and weight is not available in the Canberra Class due to the changes in design of the island for Australia. We changed the internal layout of the island, added more meeting rooms, bigger CIC ect providing command and control capabilites and facilites over and above the original design.

Cheers

 

[aussienscale]

Horrified at the further Hunter cost blowout, and the fact they have not been able to speed up the first ship. Surprised they did not mention additional midship cells for ships 3-6, but understandably they are probably shocked at cost and have low confidence in BAE to deliver that potential change on budget.

That is the price you pay for killing off, then rebuilding essentially from scratch the Australian Naval ship building industry !! Again !!

The valley of death is very real, and we are now paying the very real price for it !! Again !!

The subs will be another story !! Again !!

Why do we continue to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result ?

 

[ADMk2]

There is space and weight reserve in the original design and as built for Spain in the JC1.

That space and weight is not available in the Canberra Class due to the changes in design of the island for Australia. We changed the internal layout of the island, added more meeting rooms, bigger CIC ect providing command and control capabilites and facilites over and above the original design.

Cheers

There is certainly "space and weight' for missile launch systems on the 27,000t LHD's, but not in the "reserved" superstructure place the original design we leveraged for the Canberra Class as you say.

There is plenty of space and weight for other launching systems on the ships though, but RAN still doesn't seem to see a requirement to protect our amphibious assets with substantial indigenous self-defence capabilities, even though DSR directed such enhancements to support our littoral manoeuvre capability.

Even the planned fitting of Phalanx first confirmed publicly in 2019, no longer seems a priority, yet the defence projects website still lists this as happening. But it sure isn't happening in a rush...

https://www.defence.gov.au/defence-activities/projects/phalanx-close-weapons-system-block-upgrade

 

[Stampede]

There is certainly "space and weight' for missile launch systems on the 27,000t LHD's, but not in the "reserved" superstructure place the original design we leveraged for the Canberra Class as you say.

There is plenty of space and weight for other launching systems on the ships though, but RAN still doesn't seem to see a requirement to protect our amphibious assets with substantial indigenous self-defence capabilities, even though DSR directed such enhancements to support our littoral manoeuvre capability.

Even the planned fitting of Phalanx first confirmed publicly in 2019, no longer seems a priority, yet the defence projects website still lists this as happening. But it sure isn't happening in a rush...

https://www.defence.gov.au/defence-activities/projects/phalanx-close-weapons-system-block-upgrade

So where are our Phalanx CIWS?
Six on ships and the others?

Cheers S

 

[old faithful]

I have a question.
So the Hunters have been reduced from 9 to 6.
Why will it take 10 years from now before the 1st seems service? Marles said last night that the 1st Hunter will enter service in 2034.
Then about the optionally manned ship....which does not even exist on paper yet. 6 of them eh?
And at least another 12 months to select a GP frigate, and then contracts and tooling up.....it's hard to get excited about this. The minister said 11 GPs.....at least 7!

 

[Morgo]

I have a question.
So the Hunters have been reduced from 9 to 6.
Why will it take 10 years from now before the 1st seems service? Marles said last night that the 1st Hunter will enter service in 2034.
Then about the optionally manned ship....which does not even exist on paper yet. 6 of them eh?
And at least another 12 months to select a GP frigate, and then contracts and tooling up.....it's hard to get excited about this. The minister said 11 GPs.....at least 7!

I am baffled by this too - I still can’t work out why the Hunters are so expensive.

I reckon it’s pretty good all up. Not perfect, and not what I would’ve done, but what do I know?

I don’t really think the Gov has much excuse for not having a Tier 2 lined up and a contract ready to sign frankly. They’ve known of the need for a year.

Honestly though my biggest objection is 11 GPs… why 11?? Prime numbers irk my sense of symmetry.

But other than my offended OCD and the delayed Tier 2 decision I think it’s heading in the right direction. A path we should’ve started heading down a decade ago, but here we are.

 

[Volkodav]

I have a question.
So the Hunters have been reduced from 9 to 6.
Why will it take 10 years from now before the 1st seems service? Marles said last night that the 1st Hunter will enter service in 2034.
Then about the optionally manned ship....which does not even exist on paper yet. 6 of them eh?
And at least another 12 months to select a GP frigate, and then contracts and tooling up.....it's hard to get excited about this. The minister said 11 GPs.....at least 7!

The optionally crewed are a USN program, they have ordered 8.

Basically they will likely be like a loyal wingman for the Hunters.

As for the rest of it, this is all stuff that should have happened in the 90s, 2000s, or 2010s. It didn't so needs to happen now. Coulda woulda shoulda this stuff didn't happen but is being kicked off now which is an F load more than under Keating, Howard, Rudd, Gillard, Rudd, Abbott, Turnbull, or Morrison.

Whether it happens now it has been kicked off is up to future governments, just like is was back in the 90s when the last half reasonable naval strategy was done over.