Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Another paywalled article in the Australian suggests

-Announcement of the Fleet Review expected on Tuesday
-6 ASW Hunter
-Possibly 3 Air Warfare Destroyers using the same Hull
-At least 8 Tier 2 Corvettes or Light Frigates between 3500 and 5000 tonnes.(Options-Spain, Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea)
-First few of the small warships likely to be built overseas to accelerate entry into service
-Remaining Tier 2 Hulls likely to be built in WA.

 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Another paywalled article in the Australian suggests

-Announcement of the Fleet Review expected on Tuesday
-6 ASW Hunter
-Possibly 3 Air Warfare Destroyers using the same Hull
-At least 8 Tier 2 Corvettes or Light Frigates between 3500 and 5000 tonnes.(Options-Spain, Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea)
-First few of the small warships expected to be built overseas to accelerate entry into service
-Remaining Tier 2 Hulls likely to be built in WA.

Interesting.

If true, the "Corvettes" sound more like light frigates and being new and of that size, more capable than the ANZACs, and six hunters plus three AWDs and the Hobart's, makes for 20 major combatants instead of the current 11 or the proposed 12.

I can see issues with crewing but with such a proposed force I think the RAN will be more attractive. Also I imagine some may cry that it result in cuts to the Arafuras.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Another paywalled article in the Australian suggests

-Announcement of the Fleet Review expected on Tuesday
-6 ASW Hunter
-Possibly 3 Air Warfare Destroyers using the same Hull
-At least 8 Tier 2 Corvettes or Light Frigates between 3500 and 5000 tonnes.(Options-Spain, Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea)
-First few of the small warships expected to be built overseas to accelerate entry into service
-Remaining Tier 2 Hulls likely to be built in WA.

Until Tuesday morning leaks to media,
Babcock, Navantia, Thales, Korea, US, Japan, Italy, Spain whoever has crossed paths with a journo from one or more of those entities or countries, will be suggesting solutions for public discussion.

If a number is created from the review, guarantee they will have it costed by Friday and ready for public commentary how to rush it through
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Until Tuesday morning leaks to media,
Babcock, Navantia, Thales, Korea, US, Japan, Italy, Spain whoever has crossed paths with a journo from one or more of those entities or countries, will be suggesting solutions for public discussion.

If a number is created from the review, guarantee they will have it costed by Friday and ready for public commentary how to rush it through
Some figures will be genuine, some will be fantasy.

Hoping we stear clear of Navantia.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Interesting.

If true, the "Corvettes" sound more like light frigates and being new and of that size, more capable than the ANZACs, and six hunters plus three AWDs and the Hobart's, makes for 20 major combatants instead of the current 11 or the proposed 12.

I can see issues with crewing but with such a proposed force I think the RAN will be more attractive. Also I imagine some may cry that it result in cuts to the Arafuras.
Maybe time to re-introduce the Sloop designation.
 

iambuzzard

Active Member
Another paywalled article in the Australian suggests

-Announcement of the Fleet Review expected on Tuesday
-6 ASW Hunter
-Possibly 3 Air Warfare Destroyers using the same Hull
-At least 8 Tier 2 Corvettes or Light Frigates between 3500 and 5000 tonnes.(Options-Spain, Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea)
-First few of the small warships expected to be built overseas to accelerate entry into service
-Remaining Tier 2 Hulls likely to be built in WA.

Here's hoping they put a 5" (yes I'm old) on the bow instead of the pop guns on the new US and RN frigates. Our guys are noted for their gunnery support in the Gulf. At least give them something with a bit of punch.
 
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Alberto32

Member
Another paywalled article in the Australian suggests

-Announcement of the Fleet Review expected on Tuesday
-6 ASW Hunter
-Possibly 3 Air Warfare Destroyers using the same Hull
-At least 8 Tier 2 Corvettes or Light Frigates between 3500 and 5000 tonnes.(Options-Spain, Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea)
-First few of the small warships expected to be built overseas to accelerate entry into service
-Remaining Tier 2 Hulls likely to be built in WA.

I recall that TKMS is going to submit a proposal for their A210 frigate, which would fit in your weight class at 4700 tonnes when disaplaced. Here's the article. TKMS Unveils New MEKO A210 Frigate - Naval News
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I doubt the "build overseas" thing is an option. Babcock are pushing the Arrowhead design, which is pretty cheap in basic trim and is already proving a bit of an export success with two other countries picking it up.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wouldn't get too excited about specific types and products.

I imagine there will be an announcement, followed by the development of requirements. These requirement will then be used to inform a selection.

I recall a Captain, now a Rear Admiral commenting years ago about the government approving the requirements set, then selecting a design that didn't meet most of them, and telling defence to just make it work.

There will be massive pressure to just buy off the shelf, to reduce rusk in the acquisition phase. With the crewing and logistic issues, having robust, well thought out, requirements, and sticking to them is critical.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
I doubt the "build overseas" thing is an option. Babcock are pushing the Arrowhead design, which is pretty cheap in basic trim and is already proving a bit of an export success with two other countries picking it up.
I think alot of people are hoping the 2 new countries are AUS/NZ. Arrowhead much greater than 5,000 ton though…
3,500 - 5,000 tonnes as it states in the article is more Anzac sized and lift capable at both future Darwin and Cairns syncrolifts…
Overseas build makes me think Tasman class following on from the Saudi order of 5 ships built over a 6 year timeframe(Order to delivery)
6 Tasman built in Aus was the offer to Navy at Indopacific, a split build of a ‘few’ built in Spain, the cancellation of the rest of the Arafuras and instead more Tasmans built in WA which would probably be the quickest way to replace the aging Anzacs and to reduce the amount of crew required.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't get too excited about specific types and products.

I imagine there will be an announcement, followed by the development of requirements. These requirement will then be used to inform a selection.

I recall a Captain, now a Rear Admiral commenting years ago about the government approving the requirements set, then selecting a design that didn't meet most of them, and telling defence to just make it work.

There will be massive pressure to just buy off the shelf, to reduce rusk in the acquisition phase. With the crewing and logistic issues, having robust, well thought out, requirements, and sticking to them is critical.
Tier two time to service will be interesting.
Will capability be traded off to get vessels in the water ASAP.


We'll know shortly.

Cheers S
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Folks

AFR article

This is another article from the AFR, sorry another paywall, but key points below.
  • Andrew Tillett is the author
  • Reinforce the Tuesday release
  • The review will have 18 separate announcements (so lots of changes)
  • Commitment to a larger surface fleet with an expanded missile loading
  • Reinforced the above plan for the Hunters (6 ASW, remainder AWD)
  • Very negative outlook for the Arafuras (cancellation at 6)
  • Reinforced the time pressure aspect, so rapid builds on all ship types and faster than current
  • Reinforced the intention to scrap some of the early ANZACs
  • Commitment to Adelaide and Perth continuous builds
There are a couple of other items that are newer or less explored themes. The main one being a deeper understanding of role and function for the Navy in regards to new ships. I have copied the below text from the article.

“From a conceptual perspective, the review should also make clear that the AUKUS submarines will operate in conjunction with a surface fleet that exists not simply to project force, but to escort high-value assets, secure strategic imports and neutralise threats as far from Australia as possible.

“Without seaborne supply, Australia would not function for long in a conflict. Protection against air, submarine and surface threats is not a nice-to-have, but an indispensable naval capability for an island nation – even a continental one
This is a much more explicit comment on escorting/protecting commercial shipping and securing sea lanes, and puts it on an even footing with force projection. I could see the Tier 2s having a substantial role with this, and being tailored to this function.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
I doubt the "build overseas" thing is an option. Babcock are pushing the Arrowhead design, which is pretty cheap in basic trim and is already proving a bit of an export success with two other countries picking it up.
Rumours are rumours but I think that is the part that makes this leak sounds plausible actually (depending on how long the design takes). There are Arafuras to finish and littoral lift vessels to start in WA (and earlier discussion of whether the joint support ships can be built there). Plenty of work for SA (in dollar terms anyway) in the form of Hunters and subs. I imagine the CMS and sensors could be fitted in Australia.

Going to hyper speculation mode - tagging on an order to the overseas (from Australia) build might be attractive for New Zealand as it would bring the total price down.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I think alot of people are hoping the 2 new countries are AUS/NZ. Arrowhead much greater than 5,000 ton though…
3,500 - 5,000 tonnes as it states in the article is more Anzac sized and lift capable at both future Darwin and Cairns syncrolifts…
Overseas build makes me think Tasman class following on from the Saudi order of 5 ships built over a 6 year timeframe(Order to delivery)
6 Tasman built in Aus was the offer to Navy at Indopacific, a split build of a ‘few’ built in Spain, the cancellation of the rest of the Arafuras and instead more Tasmans built in WA which would probably be the quickest way to replace the aging Anzacs and to reduce the amount of crew required.
I think he was referring to Poland and Indonesia in regard to the AH140 build. Any new Frigate build won't be called the Tasman class, Why Navantia chose that name is a complete mystery, considering Australia has already allocated the name Tasman to the 3rd Hunter.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Folks

AFR article

This is another article from the AFR, sorry another paywall, but key points below.
  • Andrew Tillett is the author
  • Reinforce the Tuesday release
  • The review will have 18 separate announcements (so lots of changes)
  • Commitment to a larger surface fleet with an expanded missile loading
  • Reinforced the above plan for the Hunters (6 ASW, remainder AWD)
  • Very negative outlook for the Arafuras (cancellation at 6)
  • Reinforced the time pressure aspect, so rapid builds on all ship types and faster than current
  • Reinforced the intention to scrap some of the early ANZACs
  • Commitment to Adelaide and Perth continuous builds
There are a couple of other items that are newer or less explored themes. The main one being a deeper understanding of role and function for the Navy in regards to new ships. I have copied the below text from the article.



This is a much more explicit comment on escorting/protecting commercial shipping and securing sea lanes, and puts it on an even footing with force projection. I could see the Tier 2s having a substantial role with this, and being tailored to this function.
If this is correct it doesn't sound like a lot of immediate changes. The Hunter may be reduced to 6 but then again the same hull will probably be used for AWDs. Really that option was on the table from day one. There was always going to be changes made to each tranche and I am sure I read ages ago that the Hunter hull would probably be the reference design for what ever replaces the Hobart.

BAE claim they can boost the delivery drumbeat to a new ahip every 18 months ... for more money of course.

Really this sounds like a big win for BAE. Probably undeservedly so.

Arafura production being halted wouldn't be a surprise. I guess the workforce could be redeployed to other projects such as the army's new fleet of landing craft.

Scrapping some of the ANZACs is also not a surprise. It sounds like a few of them are being steatlh decommissioned anyway because of lack of crew.

Sounds like the teir 2 frigate is going to is going to be put up for tender. I was half expecting a captain's choice. Going through this will slow down the process so I wouldn't expect any new ships until at least the early 2030s.

When you really analyse it what we will be seeing in the short term is probably an overall reduction in fleet numbers with maybe an acceleration of delivery of new ships in the 2030s.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
I think he was referring to Poland and Indonesia in regard to the AH140 build. Any new Frigate build won't be called the Tasman class, Why Navantia chose that name is a complete mystery, considering Australia has already allocated the name Tasman to the 3rd Hunter.
Probably was referring to those 2.
Navy lookout who is pretty reputable says 5 navies have now purchased the license for the design.
U.K, Poland, Indonesia, the other 2?

Navy Lookout, X

 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Probably was referring to those 2.
Navy lookout who is pretty reputable says 5 navies have now purchased the license for the design.
U.K, Poland, Indonesia, the other 2?

Navy Lookout, X

Don't know but it would be a massive surprise if the Australian and NZ Frigate programs are that far advanced. Norway is a very real possibility in the future but they have only just announced their program. Brazil, Chile and Peru are possibles in the future, but funding is an issue.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I doubt the "build overseas" thing is an option. Babcock are pushing the Arrowhead design, which is pretty cheap in basic trim and is already proving a bit of an export success with two other countries picking it up.
There is definitely a need for something built fast.

So there may be some advantage having first of class built overseas, particularly if it is coming off a hot line. That doesn't mean it has to be, but its that kind of speed that will be the benchmark. Capability, local content, cost would be of course important criteria to be addressed.

If we are talking about a full tender, selection, build, IOC, FOC of a new class, then that is typically a process of 5-10 years. But like planting a tree, the best time to plant it was 15-20 years ago, the second best time is now. So we need to temper any enthusiasm, its a long process. If the Anzac's are tired and outclassed now, in 5 years they will be very tired, and very outclassed. Which is why I think a big expensive Life extension now, is a bit of a waste on the whole fleet, and honestly they were never going to make the 2040's, which is a whole another generation.

Very negative outlook for the Arafuras (cancellation at 6)
Actually I think that is a positive outlook. They could have been stripped and sold off, or cut in half and recycled. For that type of ship 6 isn't bad, an 6 is a good number. We have smaller patrol craft, we need more capable bigger ships. They filled a need in the gap in building at both Osborne and Henderson, and allowed Henderson to build something first before a bigger and more complex ship.

Commitment to a larger surface fleet with an expanded missile loading
This is officially a naval arms race.
Hoping we stear clear of Navantia.
I think he was referring to Poland and Indonesia in regard to the AH140 build. Any new Frigate build won't be called the Tasman class, Why Navantia chose that name is a complete mystery, considering Australia has already allocated the name Tasman to the 3rd Hunter.
I think Navantia may have been working hard behind the scenes to kill Hunter and BAE. Clearly naming the new class after the third of the Hunter class was a real shot across the bow.

I don't think Navantia is in the drivers seat. There have been plenty of offers and deals aired, none of them have gained much interest. They are aggressive in price, build rate and paper specs. However, no one from RAN, ADF, Gov seems to be falling over themselves to seal the deal. They seem to be using Navantia to force the change in plans, not perhaps to select a Navantia ship.

I hear the real dark horse IMO is Japan. They have the designs, the experience, the yard, the entire logistics, and very efficient crewing. A140 would now seem to be a good fit. Honestly I think the important thing is to start building them.
 
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