Well if it’s the truth. How would we know? Some junior bloke talking about what he did on a night out after drinking.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
- Thread starter OPSSG
- Start date
Due to the allegations of what occured that night it seems some fundimental principles of security, work place behaviours and appropriate activities seem to have been completely overlooked.
He was able to enter a ministers offices after hours, and after being out drinking. Bring a junior staff member who was enebriated in with him, access cabinet papers, and then leave without the person he brought in.
WTF?
I would hate to think what would happen to a uniform member, public servant, contractor, or member of industry if they did any if that.
Did this bloke even have a security clearance?
If he's a ministerial staff member then yes (all Ministerial Staff hold a TS clearance by default). Which means after the story broke there would have been a clearance review conducted on him. No idea what the outcome was.
Do people still think LOTE will go ahead? All?, Some?, None?
$6 Billion + (Does not include all equipment or upgrades)
Some news outlets are saying it could be more than $10 billion.
If the steel fab hall for the nuke subs is constructed(above asc) within the next few years, is an interim sub like the Saab/Kockums C71 a possibility?. Grow the submarine workforce earlier than planned, (decommission all Collins in the mid/late 2030s), The sub can have a VLS module to vertically launch tomohawks or use uuvs/special ops out of the multi mission portal(extra large torpedo tube). Australia’s future first island chain sub(joking) after the Virginias come online.
Cost estimation?
Cutting the Collins in half and taking out the old and adding new equipment seems very very risky. Dealing with weight changes and dimensions would be an absolute nightmare.
www.saab.com
saab/kockums out of asc also opens up opportunity to look at the lulea class multi mission stealth corvette/light frigate(Tier2?). Composite carbon fibre frigates will have alot of advantages in the future (eg low radar, infrared and magnetic signature, quieter, lighter weight, increased max speed, fuel efficiency etc etc), SAAB 9LV too, Also potential tech link to other projects (reduction in weight with a composite mast, ie hunter).
good option for scoot n shoot.
4.40 in
@Reptilia
No more of this interim sub rubbish. No mention has been made of such an acquisition by the CoA so cease and desist or there will be consequences. You have a habit for this and if you want to discuss fantasy ships building etc., there are other places on the internet. READ THE RULES.
Ngatimozart.
$6 Billion + (Does not include all equipment or upgrades)
Some news outlets are saying it could be more than $10 billion.
If the steel fab hall for the nuke subs is constructed(above asc) within the next few years, is an interim sub like the Saab/Kockums C71 a possibility?. Grow the submarine workforce earlier than planned, (decommission all Collins in the mid/late 2030s), The sub can have a VLS module to vertically launch tomohawks or use uuvs/special ops out of the multi mission portal(extra large torpedo tube). Australia’s future first island chain sub(joking) after the Virginias come online.
Cost estimation?
Cutting the Collins in half and taking out the old and adding new equipment seems very very risky. Dealing with weight changes and dimensions would be an absolute nightmare.
Oceanic Extended range | Saab
Oceanic Extended (XR) range submarines enable long-distance operations, suitable for any navy using forward deployment of their submarines on extended missions.
www.saab.com
saab/kockums out of asc also opens up opportunity to look at the lulea class multi mission stealth corvette/light frigate(Tier2?). Composite carbon fibre frigates will have alot of advantages in the future (eg low radar, infrared and magnetic signature, quieter, lighter weight, increased max speed, fuel efficiency etc etc), SAAB 9LV too, Also potential tech link to other projects (reduction in weight with a composite mast, ie hunter).
good option for scoot n shoot.
4.40 in
@Reptilia
No more of this interim sub rubbish. No mention has been made of such an acquisition by the CoA so cease and desist or there will be consequences. You have a habit for this and if you want to discuss fantasy ships building etc., there are other places on the internet. READ THE RULES.
Ngatimozart.
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Redlands18
Well-Known Member
It has to, the Collins will remain our pivotal Submarine capability until the early 40s. The SSNs won't have parity of numbers till the 3rd Collins is retired (due 2042) and greater numbers until the early to mid 40s when the first SSN-AUKUS (or Virginia 4) is commissioned.
Whether all 6 get the LOTE is another question.
2027 SRFW (if on time) will be very much needed. I’m not sure LOTE is worth it from 2026.
(If approved-Virginias 2032/35/38 + option for 2 more). Hopefully we get the nod from the u.s prior to giving the ok for LOTE.
There is another review considering that-
Collins class submarine to be assured - Australian Defence Magazine
Scott Elaurant
Well-Known Member
Lehrman had to have had security clearance to work in parliament house. I think that at this point what Lehrman alleges about submarines should only be treated as speculation. He has already admitted lying about other things. But I agree that the security implications of such behaviours in the defence ministers office are appalling.
Imagine if we were back in the cold war and a foreign power were trying to compromise somebody to get access to government files. It looks to be terribly easy.
Having worked in Federal government back in the 2000s, the thought that a young guy and drunk girl can gain access to a secure office with classified documents in them at any time of night is indefensible. Those are sacking offences for line public servants.
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Perhaps times have changed but I was told of a scientist who returned to work at night in his pyjamas to do some work (this was the gentleman who invented the black box/orange for aircraft) Can anyone recall the young ladies reason for being at the office at that hour?
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
An irresistible urge?
Still rather an unknown quantity. We know it should be stealthy, with SAMs, & probably about 100 metres. Not much more detail AFAIK.
iambuzzard
Well-Known Member
That gentleman in the pyjamas was a friend of mine who like me had a liking for Morris Minors.
Can we keep Lehman out of the RAN thread please.
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My fault, I brought it up due to the details he was raising as part of his case relating to RAN and industry capability.
Sadly there are too many like him out there working as political staffers as part of their apprenticeship to get into parliament.
Any source for this, or just your gut feel? Would be interested to know.
Personally I am hoping for something larger.
So much depends on the delivery of Virginia submarines to Australia. If there is a delay or an outright cancellation of Australia receiving Virginias then having LOTE work done on the Collins is essential.
On the other hand if Australia gets Virginias in a timely manner than the Collins class becomes a whole lot less relevant and in fact might even be more of a burden than an asset to the fleet.
I would suggest that we might see the first few Collins go through LOTE just as a precaution. Given the crewing requirements of the Virginia class and the likelihood of substantial number of RAN submariners training with US and UK SSNs it might be increasing difficult to raise crews for the Collins boats.
Speculation by writers about them (e.g. on Wikipedia), I think, based on the reported (vague) weaponry, the statement that they'll be bigger than the Visbys, & a not very informative picture of one & a Visby (see link)
“The Luleå-class will be larger than our existing Visby and Gävle-class corvettes and will be equipped to operate in all levels of conflict against surface, air and sub-surface targets. The ships will be important additions to an active defense and they will also be adapted to international contexts with our partner countries.”
Admiral Ewa Skoog Haslum, Chief of the Royal Swedish Navy
Sweden's Future Surface Combatant to be known as Luleå-class - Naval News
Saab signs strategic cooperation agreement with Babcock
Saab and Babcock International Group (Babcock) signed a strategic cooperation agreement at DSEI on Tuesday 12 September 2023.
www.saab.com
@Reptilia Do not post without adding comment. You know the rules.
Ngatimozart.
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We still have to train and retain sailors.
Many forces (those that have 3-4 subs) have them essentially for training capability only, for training ASuW surface assets.
IMO my view is we should add tomahawk vertical to Collins, then these subs have a very defined role going forward for the next 20+ years, as SSG. Operating out of the reach of Chinese SSK's, will mean they would have to soak up Chinese SSN assets to tag them, which would complicate things hugely for the Chinese, particularly if we operate them in the Indian ocean, as they would have SSN tied out in an ocean where their greatest threat (the US) isn't operating. Their ability to project power is decreased, because its so far. While the chinese have a lot of ssk, they have few SSn.
A Collins in 2030 isn't a huge threat to modern Chinese subs, particular in the SCS, an area Collins can barely get to. But Collins launching ~ 16 TLAM/NSM is a huge threat to Chinese shipping and Chinese bases, and Chinese islands.
A Conventional submarine is ideal for sit and park ops like that.
I can understand development and industrial capability to do that. And it isn't exactly replacing existing capability, and there is the question if 16 TLAM is enough to shape Chinese strategy in the Indian or Pacific, or around Australian waters. Even beyond the TLAM, you still have a conventional sub which while being out class for shallow water ops near china, would still carve up commercial and small fleet operating at great distance.
Cancelling the LOTE, would again, significantly harm local capacity and SME's and workforce.
I am pretty sure that at least some of the Collins will receive LOTE.
There are other things to consider though.
First of all there is the cost. There are a lot of other programs competing for funding.
Then of course there is the material state of the submarines themselves. There seems to be speculation that the ANZACs are pretty much worn out but we have heard little about the state of the Collins class. I imagine that sort of information would be pretty classified.
Also there is the amount of time it will take to complete a LOTE. The plan is currently one sub every two years. If that drumbeat isn’t achieved then we may see half the submarine fleet sitting on hard stands waiting their turn to undergo refurbishment.
Finally there is the manpower issue. Manning even a single SSN requires more than double the crew of a Collins class.
The priority has got to be getting SSNs in service as soon as possible and hopefully without creating too much of a capability gap in the meantime.