Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am only goiong on what I have read or seen on videos, but one thing I haven’t seen is any model of a small 90m corvette such as what has been talked about before from Luerssen. All the models from Navantia, Gibbs and Cox, Babcock and Japan (Mogami) are of ships more accurately described as light frigates (3000+ tonnes) than true corvettes.

To me that is good for the Tier Two planning. Whichever way it goes, it looks like the vessels under consideration are large enough to be capable of defending themselves and presumably having reasonable range.

Purely personally, I like the Navantia Avante 2200 and Alpha 5000 designs. They are evolutionary, not revolutionary, but that is a good thing if we are in a hurry. The Alpha 5000 in particular looks like it has room for expansion. Combined with an established consortia with designer, shipyard and workforce already together, I think this is a very attractive offer.
Of course we are yet to even get a definition of what a tier two ship actually is.

In the case of the RAN it could be as simple as an upgunned OPV on one end of the spectrum up to something like the constellation class at the other end of the scale.

I would argue that any tier two ship has to be capable enough to contribute to the overall capability of the RAN. If you just go go with a very small very basic corvette sized ship then really it may even be a liability in a combat situation. It would rely on other ships to provide cover for it while at the same time not providing any real extra combat capability to the task group.

If all you are after are extra hulls in the water then you may as well go the unmanned route.

Having said that I have no problem with better armed OPVs. I can see a role for those sorts of vessels in a Grey Zone situation. They would be relatively low cost to build and operate.

I have no problem with the other end of the scale either. Something the size of a Constellation or Type 31 have the potential of contributing a lot of combat capability in a hot war.

But something like the proposed Tasman class? I honestly don’t see much value in them.
 

CJR

Active Member
Purely personally, I like the Navantia Avante 2200 and Alpha 5000 designs. They are evolutionary, not revolutionary, but that is a good thing if we are in a hurry. The Alpha 5000 in particular looks like it has room for expansion. Combined with an established consortia with designer, shipyard and workforce already together, I think this is a very attractive offer.
TBH the weakness of the Alpha 5000 is that it's still little more than a sketch on a beer mat when the Type 31/Arrowhead 140 offers much the same capability and is already on the slipway in three different nations.

If we're looking at Tier 2 combatants for a mid-2030s start it might make sense but if we're looking at 'em as for ASAP start then nah.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
We need to wait and see what the actual request for information contains, assuming there is one.

At the moment there is nothing in the public domain even describing what a tier 2 combatant actually is.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
If it’s asap, as in next year then the Tasman class gets the nod for 6 ships I reckon. (Eventhough crap range) 2 builders, we should get all 6 by 2030. Also Opens up future amphibious, frigate, destroyer, cruiser, JSS, RO etc etc navantia builds at Henderson.
Anything expected from 2030 we should go to g&c Aus light frigate or arrowhead.(aukus partners, supply chains, interoperability). Further builds could be DDGX destroyers, constellation class or larger ships from Babcock range.
If willing to build overseas and get closer with japan, Mogami batch 2 should be an option, on time and on budget pretty much a guarantee, could get 12 by mid 30s, much faster rate than any other builder, follow on ships can be destroyers (lengthened mogamis) with 85% + commonality.
both Henderson at Osborne appear to have 15-20 year builds currently and much more potential work seperate from tier 2 going forward.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
We need to wait and see what the actual request for information contains, assuming there is one.

At the moment there is nothing in the public domain even describing what a tier 2 combatant actually is.
Yep it's an unknown at this stage.

Chief of Navy in a recent interview in APDR stated the ANZACs were Tier two and the Hobart's were Tier one.

We all find ourselves trying to interpret the future with little information but for the fact our major fleet units will fit into two classes.

As to size for tier two.
A modern ANZAC class sized vessel, something bigger, something much smaller?

The interest and options from defence suppliers at Indo Pacific 2023 suggests they sense an opertunity for countries in the region and also most likely the RAN.

As much as we would all like an update, I'm not expecting any government announcments till 2024.


Cheers S
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
At the moment there is nothing in the public domain even describing what a tier 2 combatant actually is.
Tier 2 is nothing but a meaningless, policy-driven word. It doesn't actually mean anything, which in turn means that anything can be Tier 2. No matter what, that guarantees success.

Take a possible Tier 2 definition from various points of view. A Tier 2 in terms of the:

1. RAN is a modernised ANZAC
2. Allies is a Hunter or Constellation
3. Regional is a Arafura
4. Threat is a Hunter

Now, if the DSR is meant to make a force designed to counter 'greatest strategic threat eva!" like it claims, then that sounds like more Hunter's sooner. After all, you build a force to address an identified threat - or you don't bother building at all.

For me, the greatest single problem faced by the RAN and national shipbuilding is a lack of long-term commitment to a single outcome. It delayed Perth-class replacement, it delayed Collins-class replacement, it delayed Anzac- and Adelaide-class replacements. If we just focused on delivering the plan instead of grasping for 'easy' or 'quick' solutions (of which there are none for a nation at peace) we probably would have 4 - 6 DDG and 2 - 4 modern FFG already.

I know how these documents are written and have helped draft similar ones in the past. I may (probably) would have been rolled, but 'Tier 2' has done nothing but sow discord and disruption. It has directly contributed to undermining such long-term commitment. It'll never be spoken of, but every single unsolicited proposal, every time someone writes to their MP, every time some 'great strategic thinker' writes to answer Tier 2 is time and effort taken from CN and his team trying to deliver real capability.

If there was actually a 'great strategic threat', I'd be getting an award from them if I caused as much disruption to the RAN as 'Tier 2' has.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
If it’s asap, as in next year then the Tasman class gets the nod for 6 ships I reckon. (Eventhough crap range) 2 builders, we should get all 6 by 2030. Also Opens up future amphibious, frigate, destroyer, cruiser, JSS, RO etc etc navantia builds at Henderson.
Anything expected from 2030 we should go to g&c Aus light frigate or arrowhead.(aukus partners, supply chains, interoperability). Further builds could be DDGX destroyers, constellation class or larger ships from Babcock range.
If willing to build overseas and get closer with japan, Mogami batch 2 should be an option, on time and on budget pretty much a guarantee, could get 12 by mid 30s, much faster rate than any other builder, follow on ships can be destroyers (lengthened mogamis) with 85% + commonality.
both Henderson at Osborne appear to have 15-20 year builds currently and much more potential work seperate from tier 2 going forward.
Ummm... What?!

Why on Earth would you think that a Navantia concept ship could have six built by 2030? What sort of information and more important, what sort of assumptions are you making to come to that conclusion?

Right now, it appears to just be a concept ship, meaning none of the fitout has been set, or the detailed design work completed, and none of the long lead items have been ordered. Also no yard selected for the build (or even whether it would be a domestic or overseas build for that matter).

Depending on how much additional work to take the concept further towards a completed design Navantia has done, it is possible that Australia might be ready and willing to sign a contract to have the detailed design work done, if Navantia has the basic fitout at least close to something the RAN would find acceptable. From contracting to have detailed design work done, I would then expect it would be a minimum of six months and a year or more might be more accurate to accommodate Australian systems like CEAFAR, CEAMount and the Saab 9LV CMS. Once all the detailed design work is done, then contracts could likely be signed and orders placed. If Australia does commit to such a build, then I would expect Austal in Henderson to then commit to having a workforce appropriate for such a build. TBH I am rather dubious that Austal has the facilities and workforce in Henderson to support building a 3,600t steel monohull. It appears that much of the large warship construction Austal has done has been in Mobile AL in the US, and much of the other large work like commercial ferries is now done using aluminium by an Austal facility in the Philippines or Vietnam. In other words, Austal would likely need to make improvements to the current facilities in Henderson, or get access to other/shared facilities, as well as build up a qualified workforce. These are not things which can happen overnight.

It therefore looks to me like if the "Tasman" corvette were to be built, contract signing for such a build would likely not be earlier than mid-2024 and quite possibly later, like the start of 2025 or even perhaps mid-2025. If Austal has been working on getting their Henderson facilities and especially the workforce up to scratch ahead of time, in anticipation of there being contracts signed, then once the contracts are signed orders can get placed for long lead items as well as general materials. It might be possible for prototype work to have first steel cut sometime in 2025, particularly if the first steel deliveries can be made by then. From there, I would anticipate at least six months before first steel would be cut for the lead ship. This would likely happen sometime in late 2025 at the earliest, but could easily be well into 2026 or early 2027, particularly if it takes Austal time to build up/skill up the Henderson workforce. Looking at the timeline of the ANZAC-class frigate construction, first steel for the lead ship was cut in March 1992, whilst the vessel was not actually laid down until 5 November 1993, with launch coming on 16 Sept 1994 and then commissioning into the RAN on 18 May 1996. I suspect that Austal would have either a similar duration timeline, or possibly an even longer one, given that the Williamstown facility which built the ANZAC-class at the time had fairly recent frigate construction experience building the last two Adelaide-class frigates for the RAN, with HMAS Newcastle having been launched on 21 Feb 1992, just before first steel was cut for HMAS Anzac.

I do not know what items would have long lead times, or just how long those lead times would be, but I would not consider it unreasonable to expect that at least some items ordered in early 2025 might not be ready until early 2027 or even later. It would of course depend on the item and how long it takes to manufacture, as well as how large the order book.

When all this starts getting put together in the sequence things would likely need to occur, then we might be looking at a launch date some time in 2028 with commissioning taking place 18-24 months later, for the lead ship. Subsequent vessels would likely then be commissioned at intervals, but this would be dependent on the capabilities and capacity of Austal's Henderson facility and workforce. The ASC facility in Osborne has been setup so that once the Hunter-class build gets going, two vessels can be at varying stages of construction at any one time. Not sure if Austal's facility has provision for two hulls to be getting worked on simultaneously.

Optimistically, if Austal can manage to vessels under construction at once and there are not extra delays in terms of design work or materials delivered, it might be possible for a sixth vessel to be delivered some time in 2033 or 2035. However, if there are any issues with the design which would need to be sorted before construction could begin, or extra delays for long-lead items, then lead the "Tasman" corvette might not get commissioned until after HMAS Hunter.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Ummm... What?!

Why on Earth would you think that a Navantia concept ship could have six built by 2030? What sort of information and more important, what sort of assumptions are you making to come to that conclusion?

Right now, it appears to just be a concept ship, meaning none of the fitout has been set, or the detailed design work completed, and none of the long lead items have been ordered. Also no yard selected for the build (or even whether it would be a domestic or overseas build for that matter).

Depending on how much additional work to take the concept further towards a completed design Navantia has done, it is possible that Australia might be ready and willing to sign a contract to have the detailed design work done, if Navantia has the basic fitout at least close to something the RAN would find acceptable. From contracting to have detailed design work done, I would then expect it would be a minimum of six months and a year or more might be more accurate to accommodate Australian systems like CEAFAR, CEAMount and the Saab 9LV CMS. Once all the detailed design work is done, then contracts could likely be signed and orders placed. If Australia does commit to such a build, then I would expect Austal in Henderson to then commit to having a workforce appropriate for such a build. TBH I am rather dubious that Austal has the facilities and workforce in Henderson to support building a 3,600t steel monohull. It appears that much of the large warship construction Austal has done has been in Mobile AL in the US, and much of the other large work like commercial ferries is now done using aluminium by an Austal facility in the Philippines or Vietnam. In other words, Austal would likely need to make improvements to the current facilities in Henderson, or get access to other/shared facilities, as well as build up a qualified workforce. These are not things which can happen overnight.

It therefore looks to me like if the "Tasman" corvette were to be built, contract signing for such a build would likely not be earlier than mid-2024 and quite possibly later, like the start of 2025 or even perhaps mid-2025. If Austal has been working on getting their Henderson facilities and especially the workforce up to scratch ahead of time, in anticipation of there being contracts signed, then once the contracts are signed orders can get placed for long lead items as well as general materials. It might be possible for prototype work to have first steel cut sometime in 2025, particularly if the first steel deliveries can be made by then. From there, I would anticipate at least six months before first steel would be cut for the lead ship. This would likely happen sometime in late 2025 at the earliest, but could easily be well into 2026 or early 2027, particularly if it takes Austal time to build up/skill up the Henderson workforce. Looking at the timeline of the ANZAC-class frigate construction, first steel for the lead ship was cut in March 1992, whilst the vessel was not actually laid down until 5 November 1993, with launch coming on 16 Sept 1994 and then commissioning into the RAN on 18 May 1996. I suspect that Austal would have either a similar duration timeline, or possibly an even longer one, given that the Williamstown facility which built the ANZAC-class at the time had fairly recent frigate construction experience building the last two Adelaide-class frigates for the RAN, with HMAS Newcastle having been launched on 21 Feb 1992, just before first steel was cut for HMAS Anzac.

I do not know what items would have long lead times, or just how long those lead times would be, but I would not consider it unreasonable to expect that at least some items ordered in early 2025 might not be ready until early 2027 or even later. It would of course depend on the item and how long it takes to manufacture, as well as how large the order book.

When all this starts getting put together in the sequence things would likely need to occur, then we might be looking at a launch date some time in 2028 with commissioning taking place 18-24 months later, for the lead ship. Subsequent vessels would likely then be commissioned at intervals, but this would be dependent on the capabilities and capacity of Austal's Henderson facility and workforce. The ASC facility in Osborne has been setup so that once the Hunter-class build gets going, two vessels can be at varying stages of construction at any one time. Not sure if Austal's facility has provision for two hulls to be getting worked on simultaneously.

Optimistically, if Austal can manage to vessels under construction at once and there are not extra delays in terms of design work or materials delivered, it might be possible for a sixth vessel to be delivered some time in 2033 or 2035. However, if there are any issues with the design which would need to be sorted before construction could begin, or extra delays for long-lead items, then lead the "Tasman" corvette might not get commissioned until after HMAS Hunter.
At Henderson, navantia, austal and civmec are offering the aussie version of the alpha 3000 frigate, almost exactly the same hull form and size as the saudis new corvettes, the redesigned lengthened avante 2200. They are about 105m, not the listed 98m of the original design. the Aussie one was listed at 109m. Already 3 have been built.. one more launched and a fifth due next year.
The Navantia yard is putting out one every 10 months after the first. If they end up making some units for australia, no reason we can’t have all 6 even earlier. I assume civmec will build the blocks, blast and paint etc, austal will do the fit out. If Spain contribute, good also.

The Alpha 5000 is a concept, the Flight 3 Destroyer is a concept. The evolved Hobart class and the 32 cell F110 are not.

From naval news…
 

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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
RAN Future Combatants - INDOPAC2023 Sydney 9-11/11/23.

So far we know nothing about what the RAN Force Structure Review has recommended. What we do know is that:
- The DSR review has recommended that the " ... fleet made up of an “optimal mix” of “Tier 1” and “Tier 2” surface combatants".
- The public release of the review has been delayed until next year.
Anything else in the MSM is just pure supposition based on little if any knowns.

The real problem is that we don't know how the govt COA and the RAN are defining Tier 1 and Tier 2 vessels. The article cited above suggests that: While there is no official definition of either term “Tier 1” is broadly understood to refer to large, high-end capabilities such as the Australian Navy ’s Hobart-class destroyers. In contrast, “Tier 2” vessels are understood to be smaller, less capable, and cheaper than their “Tier 1” brethren with the Navy’s fleet of eight Anzac-class frigates currently filling the role." So maybe that is the best definition that we have so far and one that is workable.

Xavier has an overview video looking at the various designs.

So not in any particular order the various designs are:

TKMS MEKO A210 Frigate.
This appears to have 4,700 tons displacement and is able to have 32 Strike Length MK-41 VLS up fo'ard, and 16 NSM box launchers amidships. It is also designed with the future in mind having the capability for direct energy weapons to be installed in the future. It has power generation and storage systems that exceed the demands of a 20KW system.


Gibbs and Cox Australian Light Frigate
This is a Tier 2 combatant and is thought to be based on Taiwan's light frigates that Gibbs and Cox designed. The Australian Light Frigate has 32 VLS cells comprising of 16 strike length cells and 16 tactical length cells. It also has 24 NSM box launchers, making this a very heavily armed 3.500 ton displacement ship. It's far better armed than the similar sized Anzac Class FFG. IMHO, I think that this would have to be the armament standard that any future RAN Tier 2 vessel should be held too. However, I am concerned about its Indo Pacific blue water seakeeping capabilities, given the weight of armament and the top weight issues that the RAN Anzac Class have had.


Navantia's Three New Warships Including Tier-2 Corvette.
Navantia have three new designs covering the Flight III DDG, a 128 cell VLS DDG; new frigate known as the Alpha 5000 Combatant; and the Tasman Class corvette.

The Flight III DDG will displace about 10,200 tons and that places it, displacement wise, in the CCG class. However what defines ship classes these days? That's a problem in itself.

The Alpha 5000 Combatant is a frigate with a projected displacement of 4,550 tons and that's not all that much more than the Anzac Class FFG. I think that it is a bit small and light for RAN service and use in the Indo Pacific. They claim a 32 Mk-41 VLS cell count but that only allows for 8 AShM and that is not good for a modern frigate. IMHO it needs to be physically large and displace probably 6,000 tonnes to be a worthwhile combatant.

Their third design is what they call the Tasman-class corvette. It has 16 VLS and four AShM in box launchers. It also has what appears to be a versatile mission bay. Something like this is what the RAN needs to replace the Anzac Class and its OPVs with. It's of similar size to the Anzac Class and better suited for Tier 2 work.

The issues I see are that I wonder what the level of commonality will be between the three designs and how much modularity they will have. Finally, Navantia has a blotchy record with the RAN regarding design and ship build quality, which I think may be against it.


BAE - Up-Armed Hunter.
This is a proposed AAW variant of the Hunter with the Hunter Class mission bays being replaced by 64 Strike Length MK-4a VLS cells. If the 5in gun up fo'ard is retained this would bring the total VLS cell count up to 96; if the 5in gun is removed then the fo'ard VLS cell counts doubles from 32 to 64 taking the total cell count to 128, which is greater than the Flt II Burke DDG and Ticonderoga CCG which has 122 Mk-41 VLS cells. If the RAN stays with the Hunter Class as a Tier 1 combatant and acquires reasonable numbers, say 6, then another 6 of the extended Hunter AAW variant would make perfectly good sense, because there would be a high degree commonality between the two variants, plus the base hull design is already being built. I think that this would carry the least risk overall, but cost will bean issue. However if 12 hulls are built instead of the planned nine, then overall the economics will be better.

We should also remember that earlier this year Babcocks offered the Arrowhead 140 (AH140) design to Australia. They could include the Arrowhead 120 design as well for the Tier 2 component, which may actually be better suited than the AH140, to Australia's Tier 2 needs.

Kongsberg also talked to Xavier about their Australian operation.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
I thinks it’s clear they want tier 2 ships eventually based in Darwin and Cairns.
2 syncrolifts approx 105m by 26m taking ships approx 120m total length(not waterline) and lifting max capacity 5,500 ton.
That puts the Mogami and Arrowhead as outsiders unless they upgrade/extend the syncrolifts.

Puts C90, Tasman, Alpha 5000, Aus Light Frigate, MEKOA210 and even Chungnam or Arrowhead 120 in the lifting category.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
China will not be happy.
How sad, to bad, never mind. The CCP/PRC do not set Australian foreign or defence policy. Best people remember that.
Not sure a better option on the table for australia than this design…

Unconfirmed reporting says it is based off the Legend class Hull, an evolved PF4921.
127m long, 16m wide, 4,800t+
Given the range of the legend class cutter, even 1/2 or 2/3s that would be significant. Some are saying 6,000 to 8,000nm.
The u.s produced legends for approx 650-670 mill each.

pic from the Australian defence magazine, constellation class behind.
Actually it looks a very well armed ship.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The more I follow this discussion the more I am convinced that speed has to be the goal - we need, effectively, an interim frigate to enter service in the early 2030s alongside the first of the Hunters to replace the Anzacs sooner; stabilising the size of our surface force before we can begin to build it up.

This is where a "tier 2" ship makes sense. It doesn't need to be perfect, it needs to meet our needs, yes, but it mostly needs to be available and soon because we've made a mess of our naval acquisitions.
As @Todjaeger says crewing will be the problem in the short term. Even in the medium term. It's the technical rates that are a problem and if you don't have enough of them, you won't be sailing anything anywhere. It takes years to train people up to and have good experience at the Petty Officer level. Given that it would take probably 5 - 7 years to get the first of class to IOC, you have time to recruit more technical rates and quickly advance senior AB, and Leading Hands in that period.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
If the RAN stays with the Hunter Class as a Tier 1 combatant and acquires reasonable numbers, say 6, then another 6 of the extended Hunter AAW variant would make perfectly good sense, because there would be a high degree commonality between the two variants, plus the base hull design is already being built. I think that this would carry the least risk overall, but cost will bean issue. However if 12 hulls are built instead of the planned nine, then overall the economics will be better.
Thanks for the description of the options' capabilities.

On the cost though I am very pessimistic that we will build more than 9 Hunters in total, whether ASW or AA variants. At the recent parliamentary accounts committee there were pointed questions from both the Labor and Liberal members to the BAE CEO about Hunter costs. Ironically former Minister Linda Reynolds was one of those asking the questions.

Hunter is already over budget with costs overruns reportedly still not all declared at $45B. There are reasons for that but in the current environment I think Hunter is more likely to face cuts than extensions. Recent interest rate rises have increased the cost of government borrowing. All departments are under pressure to cut costs.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
certainly getting out of control, the cost…

6 hunters max I reckon and they build twice as many tier 2, possibly even 2 different types.

Batch 1 / 3 x Hunter ASW (32 cell) + Batch 2 / 3 x Hunter AWD (96 cell)
or eventually
6 x Hunter MMF total (64 cell) B2 first to get more cells and then upgrade B1 32 cell later with new insert.

6 Hunters gets you to 2042, what happens from 2040 with the workforce is the issue. Type 83? Move to Osborne North Sub Yard? Reduce drumbeat, reduce workforce?, different build?

I wonder if they could shrink the Hunter by half(5,000t) into a Tier 2…
 
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Meriv90

Active Member
IMHO unless you have the numbers of JMSDF/USN/PLAN/IN and probably VMF(not so sure anymore on this one), without exports you are going to end up with a valley of death, or have continuous production but with such numbers that the end result wont be that different.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Hunter is already over budget with costs overruns reportedly still not all declared at $45B. There are reasons for that
Thanks Scott - the source of the Hunter cost increases is something that I have been struggling with quite a bit with. Do you have some insights as to what is causing the issues? Because the ANAO Report was extremely vague, with statements like:

13. Defence’s expenditure to date has not been effective in delivering on project milestones, and the cost of the head contract has increased. Lack of design maturity has resulted in an 18-month delay to the project and extension of the design and productionisation phase, at an additional cost to Defence of $422.8 million.7 At January 2023 the project was forecast to exceed the whole of project budget approved by government by a significant amount.

Ok cool I get that - but what’s driving the extra $10bn+ of costs? And is the nature of the costs fixed (ie upfront and/or sunk costs like design, infrastructure or workforce that we need to incur regardless of how many hulls we build) or variable in nature? Ie what economies of scale can we get by building more hulls of the same / similar type? My sense is that we will get the greatest capability for the lowest cost in time by building as many Hunter variant hulls as possible, but given the paucity of information on the reasons for the overruns it is hard to tell.

Is it clear BAE isn’t just taking the taxpayer for a ride?
 

Armchair

Active Member
Is it clear BAE isn’t just taking the taxpayer for a ride?
Defence Minister commenting in Adelaide yesterday committed again to continuous shipbuilding but refused to confirm Hunter numbers (SA Premier either knows nothing or would be a good poker player).
One possibility is that they have not decided on a direction but the other is that they are negotiating with BAE on price and are holding another option out as a threat.

I have another wild card option. Cancel Hobart upgrade and retain that as Tier 2 with ANZAC (possibly in extremis leasing F105s but not building any more). Change Hunter FFG to DDG at the earliest opportunity (presumably ship 4, but with whatever extra air defence can be added to ships 1-3 without further major design changes) so there are eventually 9 ships on Hunter hull (perhaps lengthened for batch 3). Design a new Tier 2 to replace the capability of ANZAC and Hobart (Build at Henderson). Perhaps 18 ships in total by around 2050 with continuous builds in two yards.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I understand many on DT don't like the Tier one / Two terminology and the vagaries as to what that means in context to the RAN and internationally.
That said, it is apart of the wording in the DSR and Naval Review implying two sizes of MFUs going forward.

Assuming the tier two "thing" has a meaningful weapons /sensor fitout to respond to all contingencys in the Air/sea domain, is it such a bad concept if it adds to the fleets overall numbers

Hypothetically
Lose three Hunters and gain six such ships.

I'm mindful the ADF is only so big with many demands needing to be met and limits of budgets and dare say, public support!


Cheers S
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ok guys, just trying to workout how to say this in a way that doesn't sound condescending, but will cut through some myths and misunderstandings.

Cutting the back third off a Toyota Hilux, i.e. removing the tray, does not give you a Corrola. Fitting a tray to a Corrola does not give you a Hilux.

For those getting excited about how much money and crew can be saved by reducing displacement, please be aware that cost, and crew size is not driven by size, but by the number, type and complexity of systems fitted. Real world example, the LHDs and AORs cost much less than the much smaller Hobart's.

If you start constraining capability by determining size, or even dictating a particular platform, prior to setting performance requirements, you will experience cost overruns and technical issues. The risk introduced into updating, or upgrading an existing design, may (likely will) be greater, than going with a new design.
 
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