Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry to be an annoying pedant, but while global population is expected to have stopped growing or even started shrinking (red dashed lines in linked figure show 80% and 95% confidence intervals) by 2100, we're still talking a 2100 population somewhere over 8B (95% lower confidence interval) vs a 1950 population of about 2.5B. Even an extreme low projection (lower dashed blue line, 1.6 children per woman) would put global population north of 6B by 2100.
I am always happy to corrected with physical data that proves my recollection / thoughts I remembered from reading an article / watching a youtube video over a year ago, are off-base. Sometimes data from trusted sources can better explain than the ramblings of someone who should be in bed.

:cool:

SA
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
From his US point of view it would make more sense as their maintenance yards and build yards are separate with the former being government owned and the latter being privately owned as opposed to ours being a mix because we don't have the luxury of being able to seperate the two in the same way.
In way of being a pedant - Do YOU know WHO owns / manages what, wrt to the shipyards & maintenance facilities in the continental US & their fleet support depots (e.g. Hawaii) ?

Having that data may help explain things, as the US does things their way, often unlike the rest of the planet & predominantly it all revolves around defence contracts / specific senators ensuring that THEIR state gets the work / the company who owns the facilities gets paid.

It makes for interesting reading, but doesn't help Australia do what IT wants to do...

SA
 

Armchair

Active Member
I've just read thru this article, directly from the BAE website :

Let's set the record straight: We will never turn our backs on SA workers

It seems obvious that there are some unnamed influential voices of dissent in Southern Australia. I'm in no way a conspiracy theorist, but some people simply don't like BAE, as they likely see them as outsiders, or are possibly trying to perpetuate issues, so that 'other actors' can come in.
I am not sure if the voices are influential but if there are unnamed voices circulating rumours in a newspaper then there IS a conspiracy. It might not amount to more than putting stuff in a paper though.

Who benefits? Possibly someone who doesn’t like AUKUS and would prefer BAE out of Australia before that starts, possibly another shipbuilder, perhaps most likely just disgruntled people who have been given the opportunity to fill space in Adelaide’s sole paper (with an article on that city’s high profile growth industry) outside AFL season.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In this case we essentially need to abandon the goal of having a fully domestic shipbuilding industry since we'll never get the expertise to stick around. That might well be something that the government is willing to do but it's counterproductive to continue saying we're pursuing one thing but using an outdated model to do so.
The only thing that stops the expertise from sticking around is having no work and being made redundant.

Shipbuilding is fun, rewarding and challenging. It's one of the few careers where you can join out of school, train, develop professionally and have a really fulfilling and interesting career that can include travel and working overseas.

That is when governments don't send work overseas and relocate capability as part of pork barreling.

It's not a case of why would people stick around, it's how can they when the work stood because some tool thinks they will get more votes moving it to another state or overseas?

It's easy to be dumb, it's easy not to train people to do complex difficult work, it's easy to be a paper shuffling lawyer or financial person. It's hard to design and make complex things.

A big part of the problem is almost none of our ruling class have ever designed or made anything in their lives. Almost none of our senior public servants have ever designed or built anything in their lives. We are even seeing the same in industry, with fewer and fewer managers actually having any technical skills.

I'm not saying all managers senior publice servants and politicians need to be trades, technical or engineers with major project experience, I'm saying it's a bad thing when almost none of them are.

Public service "Merit" rules for promotion specifically filter out many of the most technically competent condidates by focussing in on social skills, being able to bignote yourself, and claim credit. I.e. senior public servants are selected on their self marketing skills, not their technical competence.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I've just read thru this article, directly from the BAE website :

Let's set the record straight: We will never turn our backs on SA workers

It seems obvious that there are some unnamed influential voices of dissent in Southern Australia. I'm in no way a conspiracy theorist, but some people simply don't like BAE, as they likely see them as outsiders, or are possibly trying to perpetuate issues, so that 'other actors' can come in.

However, in the true stylings of a Scotsman who is living & breathing the day-today drudge of fighting off nay-sayer's within Australia, while trying to do the day job, I have to applaud Craig's comments.

This 'argument' shouldn't be about BAE, but how BAE can help Australia develop the equipment & processes it needs to defend itself & protect those 'things' that IT holds dear.

SA
Some people, the same people in fact, who didn't believe we should be building cars or planes, don't believe we should be building ships in Australia.

Some are on the left, some are on the right, some(many) have vested interests, i.e. the want the funding spent elsewhere, often to their advantage or profit. Some are just don't like the idea of normal people getting fair wages for doing skilled work.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I've just read thru this article, directly from the BAE website :

Let's set the record straight: We will never turn our backs on SA workers

It seems obvious that there are some unnamed influential voices of dissent in Southern Australia. I'm in no way a conspiracy theorist, but some people simply don't like BAE, as they likely see them as outsiders, or are possibly trying to perpetuate issues, so that 'other actors' can come in.

However, in the true stylings of a Scotsman who is living & breathing the day-today drudge of fighting off nay-sayer's within Australia, while trying to do the day job, I have to applaud Craig's comments.

This 'argument' shouldn't be about BAE, but how BAE can help Australia develop the equipment & processes it needs to defend itself & protect those 'things' that IT holds dear.

SA
Thanks for the post and the link to setting the record straight.
Words of complete frustration from a boss who can say only so much.

It must be very difficult for those in defence manufacturing silenced by the lack of public information and direction pending outcomes of the Naval Review.
I trust the reviews outcomes are announced sooner rather than later to give confidence to both serving ADF members and those in the support and manufacturing sectors that service them.

Frustration all round.

Regards S


PS. heard a rummor that as apart of AUKUS , we are going to build a third QE Class carrier at Williamstown dockyard for the RN in exchange for sending the Hunter build to Scotland.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the post and the link to setting the record straight.
Words of complete frustration from a boss who can say only so much.

It must be very difficult for those in defence manufacturing silenced by the lack of public information and direction pending outcomes of the Naval Review.
I trust the reviews outcomes are announced sooner rather than later to give confidence to both serving ADF members and those in the support and manufacturing sectors that service them.

Frustration all round.

Regards S


PS. heard a rummor that as apart of AUKUS , we are going to build a third QE Class carrier at Williamstown dockyard for the RN in exchange for sending the Hunter build to Scotland.
Nuclear powered with EMALS? ;)
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
On the subject of rapidly expanding their surface fleet the USN have the same problem. Part of their solution will be acquiring unmanned and optionally manned surface vessels. A number of USVs are currently in Australia to participate exercises with the RAN.
Austal is one of the leaders in this field and I don't doubt they have already been getting into the ears of a number of defence personnel. Wilst they are careful to emphasis that these are not intended to replace crewed vessels it is being pushed as a force multiplier. It could be an effective way to increase the capability of smaller naval vessels by providing them their own flotilla of support vessels.
 

devo99

Well-Known Member
Brazilian SSN project? They are putting an unproven domestic reactor into an SSK design that has been tripled in size. Good luck to Brazil but why on Earth they are using a modified Scorpene instead of using the Suffren design as baseline is beyond me. Australia can't follow that plan because we don't use nuclear reactors for power generation, let alone design and build our own, where Brazil does.
Don't think he was talking about that plan for getting SSNs but rather that model for yard ownership and industry development.
As has been addressed though his argument is flawed by perspective.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
PS. heard a rummor that as apart of AUKUS , we are going to build a third QE Class carrier at Williamstown dockyard for the RN in exchange for sending the Hunter build to Scotland.

I think we can safely conclude from that, that rumour control is having a nap and rumours are huffing paint thinners.

None of that makes any sense from any commercial or military perspective.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Sorry to be an annoying pedant, but while global population is expected to have stopped growing or even started shrinking (red dashed lines in linked figure show 80% and 95% confidence intervals) by 2100, we're still talking a 2100 population somewhere over 8B (95% lower confidence interval) vs a 1950 population of about 2.5B. Even an extreme low projection (lower dashed blue line, 1.6 children per woman) would put global population north of 6B by 2100.
Fairly certain and I will go and research the population reduction isn’t a linear reduction for all countries. My understanding is Chinas built in demographic dip is a big part of any population reduction. I can see no reason other than political Australia doesn’t continue to grow,
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Like most western nations I suspect Australia’s population growth is largely driven by migration. China’s population on the other hand will decline.

From a security viewpoint I think that if a major war can be averted with China for the next decade or two demographics will probably fix the problem. An aging population and shrinking workforce might quickly quash China’s military ambitions.

One issue I constantly hear is that Australia is struggling to find personnel for its military and military industry. Few seem to consider that China faces the same problem.

 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Fairly certain and I will go and research the population reduction isn’t a linear reduction for all countries. My understanding is Chinas built in demographic dip is a big part of any population reduction. I can see no reason other than political Australia doesn’t continue to grow,
Topic somewhat divorced from the RAN, but I can think of several reasons why Australia might not continue to grow which are not political, but rather economic and resource related. Australia as a continent, is the 2nd driest on the planet and access to potable water currently can be a problem. If the population increases, this issue of access will continue to grow as well. Yes, there are additional ways which could make more potable water available, but it can become expensive to do so, particularly if there is competition between different activities for water. If there is demand from people for water, as well as agricultural and industrial demand, and the price of clean water grows, eventually someone or something will not be able to afford the water that is wanted or needed.

Relating to the water issue, specifically for Australia, is the distribution of population. Australia has one of the lowest population densities when looking at the land masses as a whole, but if one looks at the population densities of most settlements, one can quickly realize that most Australians live in only a few areas of concentrated settlement and are high density areas. This in turn limits the amount of space for new housing as well as can increase the cost over time for those who wish to move into an area.

At some point, the economic costs associated with living in an area will begin to take such a toll that the population growth will either have slowed, or possibly even inverted. A potential reason for this to start happening is families begin planning on having only a single child, to reduce the economic costs associated with having and raising children.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
I see a few comments on population growth, water and economic constraints. Since that is my day job (infrastructure planning) I’d like to comment as follows.

Birth rate and natural population growth rate has declined in all developed countries, especially as the proportion of women in higher education grows. In Australia there have been several times in the past three decades when the birth rate was below replacement level. Overall since 2000, about 75% of our population growth was due to immigration, which has been the primary driver of population growth since the 1950s. There is no sign of this slowing down because, despite the high house prices, Australia still has relatively high personal incomes, and surplus jobs, which is the main attractor of migrants.

Only around 1/3 of Australia’s land area is arable in terms of soil quality and water quantity. The rest is not viable for agriculture, and even some irrigated land would not be deemed good quality farmland in other countries, but survives because of historic (and dubious) allocations of irrigated water.

Despite this, Australia still produces far more food than it needs. About 70% of Australia’s food crops are exported. Hence Australia’s food supply is not a constraint to growth to more than double current population. This still assumes current areas of bush and national park would remain undisturbed.

Same with water supply. Whilst water here is scarce, there is still more than enough water for a much larger population. The main issue is the equity of water distribution and how much users pay for it. The main large scale uses of water are for agricuture and mining, not household consumption. For example, as one water scientist I knew pointed out while Adelaide was building a desalination plant, six large cotton farms near Deniliquin in NSW had a larger water allocation than metropolitan Adelaide (pop 1.3 million).

Put simply, rich countries don’t run out of water. Worst case, they can build desalination plants. Even with these, the cost of water at household level rarely exceeds 10% of the cost of living. Food, housing and transport are the dominant costs.

I would observe that housing price and land supply is a very big issue right now, however in my opinion that that is almost entirely a product of Australia’s byzantine approach to town planning and property taxation laws. It is not due to lack of land. Countries without such laws don’t have the same problem with housing costs, even if they have larger populations and higher density. For example, you can literally buy a central Berlin or Paris apartment, cheaper than a house in Sydney. Prior to the advent of negative gearing tax deductions in the 1980s, and removal of most capital gains tax on investment property in 2000, Australia did not have a major problem with house costs.

Despite all the frustrations our governments might cause, most Australian cities are consistently ranked as among the most desirable places to live in the developed world. More than 80% of our population live in capital cities; of the remainder more than half live in regional cities.

On current trend Australia’s population will reach 35 to 40 million by 2050, and could exceed 50 million in the 2060s (2100 latest).
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Kym Beasley's recent podcast interview with Defence Connect included his belief that the greatest threat in Australia's future likely isn't China, but other, growing nations who look at us and ask why does an ex British empire enclave get a reasourse rich continent all to themselves?

This becomes, ok guys share or else.

China daming the rivers that feed Vietnam and steeling reasourses from other nations leads them to demand space, farms, mines from us.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
Kym Beasley's recent podcast interview with Defence Connect included his belief that the greatest threat in Australia's future likely isn't China, but other, growing nations who look at us and ask why does an ex British empire enclave get a reasourse rich continent all to themselves?

This becomes, ok guys share or else.

China daming the rivers that feed Vietnam and steeling reasourses from other nations leads them to demand space, farms, mines from us.
I have recently read Sam Roggaveen’s “The Echidna Strategy”. He expresses a similar concern. In the long term Indonesia could grow to become a powerful nation, and is on track to do so. It is perhaps the only country that could be both powerful enough and close enough to Australia to mount a serious threat. Roggaveen argues it is strongly in Australia’s interest to maintain a good relationship with Indonesia and support it being democratic and prosperous. Prosperous nations invade fewer neighbours.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Put simply, rich countries don’t run out of water. Worst case, they can build desalination plants. Even with these, the cost of water at household level rarely exceeds 10% of the cost of living. Food, housing and transport are the dominant costs.
Sort of yes, and sort of no. Taiwan is arguably a rich (de facto if not de jure) nation but it has experienced some significant water issues as a result of a drought, which ended up having a worldwide economic impact. The drought in 2021 impacted the availability of water of the quality and in the quantity needed for chip production in Taiwan which was at least partially responsible for the chip shortage.

For Australia I can easily foresee scenarios where water availability could be an issue, particularly for agricultural and/or industrial operations. It could very well happen where water can be gotten, but the cost/effort to do so has crossed a threshold where it is not done, because the cost/effort required has risen to be high enough that it is deemed no longer sufficiently worthwhile to do so.

Whilst not water related, I have come across this when looking into Canadian mining operations in BC. There are a number of claims given up, and/or mining operations which were shut down, because the cost/effort involved in the mineral extraction exceeded what was felt acceptable. In a number of instances, mining is or could have still been profitable, but not by enough of a margin to keep operations going. In some instances, new individuals or operations have subsequently gone back in, and been able to engage in smaller scale operations profitably.

Similar things could happen in Australia where a confluence of issues with water (cost, availability, access and distribution) and/or transportation trigger declines on farms and stations, or in businesses. This could be where an operation fails outright, or might be that the size or scope has to be cut back, or alternately it could result in new ventures not getting launched.

This in turn could trigger a variety of economic effects.
 
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