Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[StingrayOZ]

My point was just let it be selected without political considerations.

Nothing is done in a vacuum.

TBH tho, I think delivery and operating dates will over run everything else.
Our fleet has a large number of issues, and we needed new ships to already be arriving right now.

Consider for a moment the notion of a new shipyard being established to produce eight modern frigates for the RAN...

Everyone is building new(or renewing) shipyard or defence manufacturing plants.
There is a cataclysmic shift happening in security globally.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

UK deployments have been notoriously patchy. In peace time.

As I said, we're doing what we can. No other European nation is going to do more.

Australia isn’t just an additional rotation point. It's a strategic location for projecting power. The real interest here is in Europe, not in Australia itself.

I fail to understand what that has to do with which of the frigate options Australia should go for.

Australia doesn't need that kind of protection. The focus is on shared interests, not safeguarding Australia’s sovereignty. China isn’t going to invade Australia—such an action is both impossible and pointless.

Whether anyone is going to invade Australia is irrelevant. The threat from China is away from Australia's immediate shores (South Seas and Taiwan), albeit theoretically China might try a mass, standoff attack on Australian military bases to avoid it intervening in a war with someone else.

To get back on topic, if the choice between A210 and new-FFM was your decision, which would you go for and why?

 

[seaspear]

I was under the impression it was the a-200 that was being considered not the a-210 a much bigger ship

Royal Australian Navy selects MEKO 200 and FFM 30 Mogami to replace Anzac-class frigates

In many ways, the Royal Australian Navy's major naval programs resemble Quentin Tarantino films. They always start off quietly and

meta-defense.fr

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I was under the impression it was the a-200 that was being considered not the a-210 a much bigger ship

Royal Australian Navy selects MEKO 200 and FFM 30 Mogami to replace Anzac-class frigates

In many ways, the Royal Australian Navy's major naval programs resemble Quentin Tarantino films. They always start off quietly and

meta-defense.fr

There has been confusion over what was being offered because of bad reporting. As far as I can recall, credible news reports have always said that some new design was being used. But because it was characterised as a variant of the A200, it was wrongly assumed to be a slightly tweaked version of a ship in service by people who don't do their own research.

Recent reporting mentions the A210.

It's also possible that TKMS have had to change what they were offering because they realised the A200 can't win against new-FFM.

 

[seaspear]

Hopefully the people at D.S.T.O and A.M.R.L are key to making this decision

 

[K.I.]

I'm not sure there is a clear answer to that. However, US tariffs impact Europe far more than Australia. US disruption to trade impact EU more than Australia.

It was certainly reported as such locally.

‘Incredible boost’: Europe touts prospect of breakthrough on elusive trade pact

The EU ambassador to Australia has signalled that Europe is open to compromise on the use of names such as prosecco and feta by Australian producers.

www.smh.com.au

Australia wasn't just locked out of Europe. It was locked out of North America. Our free trade deal with the US was so absurd, that it actually caused trade between the two nations to drop.

Im not sure Europe and Australia are in the same mind. Europe seems to think we are desperate to strike a deal. I think Japan has closer world view to Australia.. Maybe we are just checking our options before we sign up.

Its a hard question to answer.

If its just based on the platform, IMO, Japan has it, just. Bigger, more capable, some more bold design moves, that are now low risk. Japan probably has slight edge in production timelines, and seems happy to give Australia what ever it wants. Not only that. Japan is familiar with Aegis and integrates that with its fleet. Its uses more us weapons, or weapons based on interfacing US weapon systems.

The platform and the economic stuff are also not 100% tied.. Many though with the land stuff, who ever won might win all types, and the German production order didn't collapse when the germans only won one item.

Australia walked out of the trade negotiations because the EU was more interested in arguing about regional connections of product names rather than the bear in the room of market access for Australian producers.
Both now realise there's significant common ground on a lot of tariffs and quotas can be agreed on because defence is suddenly now a mutual necessity.
Europe wants to build defence partnerships with countries that have shown the ability to do so independently without US restrictions , it's been a long time coming.

 

[iambuzzard]

As I said, we're doing what we can. No other European nation is going to do more.



I fail to understand what that has to do with which of the frigate options Australia should go for.



Whether anyone is going to invade Australia is irrelevant. The threat from China is away from Australia's immediate shores (South Seas and Taiwan), albeit theoretically China might try a mass, standoff attack on Australian military bases to avoid it intervening in a war with someone else.

To get back on topic, if the choice between A210 and new-FFM was your decision, which would you go for and why?

Evolved Mogami without a doubt. Proven design, cutting steel, low crew, low risk, and modern systems. Not a rehash of an old design that has no room for upgrading.

 

[Stampede]

Just wondering if their is an option for domestic built Sea 3000 ships to be constructed in a state other than WA
Let WA concentrate on the OPVs, Capes and Landing craft.
Thoughts

Regards S

 

[Reptilia]

Just wondering if their is an option for domestic built Sea 3000 ships to be constructed in a state other than WA
Let WA concentrate on the OPVs, Capes and Landing craft.
Thoughts

Regards S

Nope. Maybe in the future.
A large vessel yard would be good (200m+) -Replenishment ships, LHDs or Carriers, Icebreakers, Cargo etc etc
Williamstown probably would have been the quickest to upgrade, vessels 120m and under (tier 3 vessels) with Henderson focusing on tier 2 and Osborne tier 1.

 

[Volkodav]

Just wondering if their is an option for domestic built Sea 3000 ships to be constructed in a state other than WA
Let WA concentrate on the OPVs, Capes and Landing craft.
Thoughts

Regards S

We are doing it again.

When Cockatoo should have stayed our primary it was shutdown and Williamstown was expanded at great expense.

Then following the Australian built FFGs and ANZACs, the Hobart's were built in a brand new yard in Osborne SA.

Now Osborne is fully established Henderson WA is being expanded.

Where next? Somewhere in QLD, or perhaps Newcastle?

 

[Reptilia]

We are doing it again.

When Cockatoo should have stayed our primary it was shutdown and Williamstown was expanded at great expense.

Then following the Australian built FFGs and ANZACs, the Hobart's were built in a brand new yard in Osborne SA.

Now Osborne is fully established Henderson WA is being expanded.

Where next? Somewhere in QLD, or perhaps Newcastle?

Newcastle makes alot of sense.

 

[Volkodav]

Newcastle makes alot of sense.

It makes no sense at all after spending billions on Adelaide and WA, after shutting down Sydney and Melbourne.

The amount of waste and damage to workforce continuity is obscene.

 

[Reptilia]

It makes no sense at all after spending billions on Adelaide and WA, after shutting down Sydney and Melbourne.

The amount of waste and damage to workforce continuity is obscene.

We will need a third yard eventually. It’s not just RAN that needs new ships.

 

[Volkodav]

We will need a third yard eventually. It’s not just RAN that needs new ships.

But do we? Are there enough quality people?

We aren't doing it like the destroyer program any more, now there are so many layers of management, governance, assurance etc. I don't think we can generate enough people for an extra shipyard, not for many years. Even the US and Japan with all the ships they build don't have as many yards as they used to.

 

[old faithful]

When the unions won their huge pay rise at BHP Newcastle, after holding them to ransom, BHP moved offshore, leaving the mid north coast a retirement village.
Once Defence force recruiting visited the high schools up and down the coast, so did BHP, and kids from Forster, Taree, Port Macquarie and Coffs were recruited by the big Australian to be trained as fitters, electricians, boiler makers, machinists etc etc are now training as baristers, tour guides, shop assistants and dealers.....BHP offered live in apprenticeships for kids up and down the coast.....gone. the clever country remember?

 

[Antipode]

In my view, the German offer ticks less boxes than the Japanese one. Maybe better risk wise? Adducing lack of previous collaboration and the high modernity of the Evolved Mogami. But very just so, and would risk materialize, the Japanese seem in a better position to provide solutions fast.

The Evolved Mogami would be very capable, low crewed, cutting edge. The Japanese are very involved with them themselves, and have a high construction output. If a grave enough problem (delay) should arise for the first Australian made ones, well, the Japanese would have just made three of them to Australian spec.

Strategically, it makes sense. Industrially, it makes so much sense, for production, sustain and future endeavours. Crucially, it's desirable service wise. It's so good I'm almost sure the MEKO will be chosen (just joking).

Re delivery, urgency and all, it doesn't seem wise to hurry up to save months now, when it's very possible that the full 11 of them will be acquired. If Australia gets a good share, together they could become a very strong player in the export market.

Cheers

 

[Volkodav]

In my view, the German offer ticks less boxes than the Japanese one. Maybe better risk wise? Adducing lack of previous collaboration and the high modernity of the Evolved Mogami. But very just so, and would risk materialize, the Japanese seem in a better position to provide solutions fast.

The Evolved Mogami would be very capable, low crewed, cutting edge. The Japanese are very involved with them themselves, and have a high construction output. If a grave enough problem (delay) should arise for the first Australian made ones, well, the Japanese would have just made three of them to Australian spec.

Strategically, it makes sense. Industrially, it makes so much sense, for production, sustain and future endeavours. Crucially, it's desirable service wise. It's so good I'm almost sure the MEKO will be chosen (just joking).

Re delivery, urgency and all, it doesn't seem wise to hurry up to save months now, when it's very possible that the full 11 of them will be acquired. If Australia gets a good share, together they could become a very strong player in the export market.

Cheers

The very first APDR, back when it was PDR, that I bought had an article on the RANs patrol frigate program that became the ANZAC program.

The Type 23 was seen as the ASW) operators favourite, the M Type was the RAN senior sirs and industry favourite, and the MEKO was seem as the politicians favourite i.e. the cheapest, lowest risk, easiest to build.

Ironically the option not looked at was an improved or updated FFG-7.

 

[Antipode]

The very first APDR, back when it was PDR, that I bought had an article on the RANs patrol frigate program that became the ANZAC program.

The Type 23 was seen as the ASW) operators favourite, the M Type was the RAN senior sirs and industry favourite, and the MEKO was seem as the politicians favourite i.e. the cheapest, lowest risk, easiest to build.

Ironically the option not looked at was an improved or updated FFG-7.

I don't know what year that would be (don't feel obliged to reveal), but it was probably hard to envision that a Hobart could evolve from them. They (F100/105) were really radically maxed out.

I don't believe going with the German frigates would have a bad outcome, it's just that the whole Japan deal really seems fantastic for the RAN.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I don't believe going with the German frigates would have a bad outcome, it's just that the whole Japan deal really seems fantastic for the RAN.

Indeed. Critiquing the Japanese deal isn't so much as looking a gift horse in the mouth as questioning whether the horse exists at all because it shouldn't be possible to have such a good option available. Natural cynicism suggests that something has to be wrong with it, which is where I think the "they can't do it because they've not done it before" argument comes from.

The critics of the Japanese offer really have no idea what their arguments imply. It suggests that Australia can't handle a platform like new-FFM, that it's too complex for Australians to build or operate. Personally, I think the RAN should aim higher than a second-rate ship that the likes of Egypt and Algeria use because they're never actually going to use them in a real conflict.

The Japanese are very involved with them themselves, and have a high construction output. If a grave enough problem (delay) should arise for the first Australian made ones, well, the Japanese would have just made three of them to Australian spec.

Yep. Japan is going to make sure that new-FFM works because they're relying on it and need it to be in service by 2028. Was it one of the videos posted in this thread that said MHI haven't once missed a deadline for delivering a ship in the last several decades?

Whereas what's the strategic problem for Germany if the A210 has a critical design flaw that takes years to fix?

 

[Reptilia]

Civmec is proud to announce the acquisition of Luerssen Australia. | Civmec

Civmec is proud to announce the acquisition of Luerssen Australia. Find out more about this historic step in Australia’s Naval shipbuilding future from Civmec’s General Manager for Defence, Mark Clay. | 47 comments on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com

Civmec completes acquisition of Luerssen Australia - Civmec

This milestone strengthens Civmec’s role in Australia’s naval shipbuilding sector by bringing Luerssen Australia’s operations, workforce, and assets under full local ownership. The business includes a highly skilled team with deep experience in naval shipbuilding, mature engineering and training...

civmec.com

‘It is the intent that, Luerssen Australia will be renamed to ‘Civmec Defence Industries Pty Ltd (“CDI”)’ as a wholly owned subsidiary of Civmec.’