Hamas-Israeli War 2023

ImperatorOrbis

New Member
I can see Israel loosing western support very quickly if it is too harsh on civilians. US already forced them to turn back on water supply in south Gaza.

Also street fighting in Gaza city seems very costly for IDF. So starving the city out is prudent in thoery. In reality Israel might become a pariah state with such actions.

I predict they will move as many civilians to the south and than start a war of attrition against Hamas in the Gaza city.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Massive tragedy in Gaza as a hospital was hit by a large unknown munition. Hamas reports 500 killed. Hamas has a long history of faking numbers for political gain, however even just half of that is a huge number.

This is footage from Al Jazeera, reportedly of that area, showing a Hamas rocket misfiring and landing in Gaza. If true, those were supposed to be 500 Israelis.

Today Hamas released footage of a "new" heavy rocket. It joins a class of rockets also used by Iran and Hezbollah, that contain a heavy payload in the hundreds of kilograms of explosives, typically with a very low range of under 10km.

A video from the scene that provides the following details:
1. A whistle is heard, indicating a low ballistic trajectory. Inconsistent with air launched GP bombs.
2. The explosion contains a fireball and lacks upward thrown dirt and rubble, inconsistent with modern military standard munitions.
3. Explosion is surface-level, inconsistent with GP bombs that typically penetrate a target before detonation.


IDF released a statement, saying it was a Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

The other side also claim there is initial misscoordination on IDF side, where a spokesperson claim it is IDF strike to hospital before taking off the claim.

There's also other pro Palestinian source that shown the impact sound is originated more to balistic smart munition then rocket fire.

So at this moment all still claim and counter claim. No one wants to take claim on responsibility for attacking hospital of this size. All giving counter evidence the other side doing it.

Diplomatically (at least for now), this strike to Hospital seems galvanize Arab possition in UN. How this is going to translate in the ground, remain to be seen. They have no choice tough, as this seems also try to calm down reaction on their streets.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
1. Reuters could not independently verify who was responsible for the blast at Al-Ahli Hospital.

This is footage from Al Jazeera, reportedly of that area, showing a Hamas rocket misfiring and landing in Gaza. If true, those were supposed to be 500 Israelis.
2. At this stage, the public in Arab & many Muslim countries, are outraged that a war crime has been committed.

3. Evidence through bomb debris at Al-Ahli Hospital and aerial surveillance means we will soon know whose bomb it is. I am an adult. I can wait.

IDF released a statement, saying it was a Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket.
4. Given the lack of verified information, I don't need to speculate. In a few days or weeks, we will find out whose war crime it is.

5. Supporters of the IDF are trying to convince me of:

(a) the small impact, with a lot of fuel accelerant that likely caused most of the fire damage, and very little structural damage; &​

(b) who bombed Al-Ahli Hospital — I am not convinced until more data emerges. Israeli intelligence data has been shared with the US. Until the US confirms the public stance taken by the IDF, there is no conclusive evidence of whose bomb it is.​
 
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phreeky

Active Member
4. Given the lack of verified information, I don't need to speculate. In a few days or weeks, we will find out whose war crime it is.

5. Supporters of the IDF are trying to convince me of:

(a) the small impact, with a lot of fuel accelerant that likely caused most of the fire damage, and very little structural damage; &​

(b) who bombed Al-Ahli Hospital — I am not convinced until more data emerges. Israeli intelligence data has been shared with the US. Until the US confirms the public stance taken by the IDF, there is no conclusive evidence of whose bomb it is.​
Is there really such a thing as a truly independent group to verify this? That old statement that "history is written by the victors" will probably be the result.

Both groups are throwing rockets/missiles/bombs at each other with civilians in harms way. I have no doubt that mistakes will be made by both sides, whether that be errors in equipment or errors in judgement.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
2. At this stage, the public in Arab & many Muslim countries, are outraged that a war crime has been committed.
It might not be a warcrime though. It could be an accident, by either side at that.

A review of innovative weapon systems that have shown up in the Hamas arsenal.

A local made SAM, except the missiles (rockets?) appear to be unguided minus the controlled detonation on distance from the launcher. It can probably hit something, but its use against modern PGMs, nevermind jets, is negligible. Nonetheless it reveals a level of sophistication previously absent.


Locally produced RPG-7VR clones, i.e. a modern tandem warhead. This is probably what Big Zuchinni was referring to when he talked about sharing experience. Note Iran has access to this tech too.


Two types of loitering munitions. One is an Iranian project, the other appears to be locally produced. Note these are generally fairly expensive. I'm surprised they haven't gotten on to the much easier to source FPV drones. This is likely only a matter of time though. That having been said, we aren't seeing widespread use of these, meaning there are likely fairly few available, and possibly they're being saved for when the ground invasion starts.

 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
It might not be a warcrime though. It could be an accident, by either side at that.
Every rocket fired by Hamas & PIJ is a war crime, as their goal is to target civilians.

If the IDF was responsible, the targeting lacked discrimination — Israel knows where the hospitals are located, for sure. And the onus is for the IDF to prove to Team Biden.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Every rocket fired by Hamas & PIJ is a war crime, as their goal is to target civilians.

If the IDF was responsible, the targeting lacked discrimination — Israel knows where the hospitals are located, for sure. And the onus is for the IDF to prove to Team Biden.
Not a single rocket fired has a legitimate military target?
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not a single rocket fired has a legitimate military target?
1. Under the law of armed conflict, Hamas or PIJ rocket attacks, at Israel civilian centres, are guilty of the war crime of attacking civilians. Assuming that this was an unguided rocket fired by PIJ at targets in Israel, but for some reason broke up midair and the damage on the ground was caused by the debris. On this assumption:

(a) if the rocket randomly fired into Israel or intended to hit civilians, this amounted to an indiscriminate attack;​
(b) if the rocket was incapable of being directed against specific military objectives, this also amounted the an indiscriminate attack.​

2. Points (a) and (b) are valid irrespective of the fact that the missile did not reach Israel.

3. If PIJ did not issue any effective advance warnings prior to the attack where the circumstances permitted it to do so, it failed in in its precautionary obligations.

4. If PIJ located the military objectives used in the attack within or near densely populated areas, and it would have been feasible to avoid this, it committed another breach.

5. All of this is based on the customary rules of the law of armed conflict. Thus far, not only is there is zero capability or attempt to hit military targets, their high rocket failure rate ensures their rockets also hit Gaza & kill civilian Palestinians. If the blast at Al-Ahli Hospital is it proved to be a PIJ rocket, they committed a war crime — the crime is one of conduct, not result.

6. Unlike the right-wing nutcases in America or Israel, truth & adherence to the laws of war matter to me. The IDF is a profession of arms & I expect their division strike centre to be professional & more discriminate at targeting (than the Russian Army in Ukraine).

7. I hope the TV news networks, try to learn from and work on improving reporting in the high risk and high uncertainty information environment. I don’t know who is responsible for the blast at Al-Ahli Hospital. For those who claim that:

(a) one side, or​

(b) the other side,​

did it, at this time, they are speaking as a partisan. Often the best approach is to take a step back and acknowledge that it's a lot we don't know and present that uncertainty to to one's audience.
8. As the UK Foreign Secretary, James Cleverly noted, “getting this wrong would put even more lives at risk.” Jumping to conclusions on something that has potential to become very significant, with real escalation risks, is dangerous.

9. Western diplomats, in their undying earnestness, are susceptible to accusations of moral hypocrisy. But it's narcissistic to believe politicians in countries like Iran, Egypt, Jordan Turkey, or Malaysia see their interests through the prism of moral integrity. No Russian or Chinese official would even bother.

10. After what Hamas or PIJ have done to Israeli citizens & babies — they are ISIS level bad. They just want to torture, kill or kidnap to create the conditions for a global Jihad.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Is there really such a thing as a truly independent group to verify this? That old statement that "history is written by the victors" will probably be the result.

Both groups are throwing rockets/missiles/bombs at each other with civilians in harms way. I have no doubt that mistakes will be made by both sides, whether that be errors in equipment or errors in judgement.
There is simply ample evidence. Since the beginning of the air campaign over Gaza, various media organizations have started streaming live video footage from Gazan rooftops showing the Gaza skyline as well as nearby Israeli cities frequently targeted by rockets like Ashkelon and Sderot. Most just don't trust any authority to piece the information for them, and raw data can be prone to fakes (posting old footage). But with a good methodology those who want to get a good understanding, can achieve that.

Security footage from Israeli towns near Gaza also provide a glimpse at Gaza's skies.
This way not only are many Israeli strikes reported in real time, but also Hamas and PIJ rocket attacks.

Israeli MFA shares radar data.


IDF releases overhead footage:
  • They present visual confirmation there are no craters in the impact site.
  • I do not know if the ground in all instances is similar. In the cratered areas it is likely dirt, while in a hospital's parking lot it is likely asphalt or concrete. All would crater differently. Still, no cratering whatsoever is a good indication in itself, regardless of scale.

Morning footage of the impact location:
We can see there isn't even a small craters. Cars are burnt, but buildings around them are structurally sound, albeit impacted by fire and likely shrapnel. It is highly likely the initial casualty reports were massively inflated, to an extent unusual even for Hamas.

It is also worth mentioning that since footage showing misfired PIJ rockets surfaced last night, Hamas and PIJ have been fairly silent, and their civil services appear to have been absent from the scene. I have yet to stumble upon on-scene ground footage, even though Hamas does typically show footage of destruction even at night.

IDF released a conversation between Palestinian militants in which they talk about a failed PIJ launch from a cemetery, that impacted the hospital. This is no small matter. The IDF has likely spent an intelligence source to deliver this message to the public. The speech clarity and lack of background noise indicates that it is likely a land line. Now Hamas know which specific line has been tapped into.

IDF also says that based on its data, over 450 Palestinian rockets have misfired and fallen in Gaza.

Writeup from TWZ with updates:

I link the TWZ article instead of half a dozen tweets to avoid cluttering this space. You can see in the article some videos from Arab nations of protests, including in front of embassies, as well as a not so veiled Iranian threat via its embassy in Syria. Hezbollah has notably also called for a "Day of Unprecedented Anger", which honestly may be a bit much considering they've already organized a "Day of Rage" this week.

The rash response by citizens in Arab nations, as well as Hezbollah and Iranian threats, may indicate that they were looking for a casus belli and decided to cling onto this one, despite the now substantial evidence that the IDF was not involved.

However, as of yet, no uptick in Hezbollah activity in the north was detected.
 
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IHFP

Member
It would appear that as of 00:52 -8, the "Israel Defence Force's" website is down. There are a few possibilities for the disturbance, including "maintenance" which is claimed by the website ("idf.il"), media agencies mining for more information with respect to the hospital indecent in Gaza, and/or perhaps there has been a denial of access attack.

Edit: Around 10 minutes later "IDF's" website was back online, and they have linked to this video/slide show of information about the hospital attack videoidf.azureedge.net/79c67f70-e995-4451-a836-7f15d6e88a5d .
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
3 minutes after I updated my post to include a brief explanation about the voluntarily intelligence-sacrifice Israel made after the hospital incident, Intellitimes tweets about it. Unfortunately, too little traffic, written in Hebrew, and of course it will go unnoticed.

This is no small sacrifice and regardless of my stance on any political issue, I will always respect those who are willing to make such sacrifice to inform the public. I also want to add that this revelation may, however, ultimately cost someone's life - those who installed the communication systems. Hamas does not conduct long investigations when looking for "traitors", and military operations give them a good excuse to execute them and add them to the tally.

Tapping into a communication system in Gaza is an extremely complex matter, it takes many months of work which are preceded by years of development. It is heavily based on fleeting opportunities.
 

phreeky

Active Member
Based on those images, I don't even see how there can be claims of 500+ dead. Still tragic for those involved (I'm guessing those that were in the carpark, queued up outside etc).

It seems that a LOT of news channels have jumped on the "500 dead" line (hook, line + sinker).
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #135
Not a single rocket fired has a legitimate military target?
As far as I can tell, most if not all their rockets lack any form of active guidance systems (GPS/INS), relying on gravity/spin stablization mostly. It means that hitting a target (military) would require large volumes to overcome low accuracy and high failure rates. This would expose civilian settlements along the flight path to risks since the CEP is frankly, horrenous.

If they do this knowing the risks, it just shows that they are not concerned about civilian casulties. It seems a moot point to debate whether they target civilians or military targets.

 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Based on those images, I don't even see how there can be claims of 500+ dead. Still tragic for those involved (I'm guessing those that were in the carpark, queued up outside etc).
1. While it is not confirmed but various sources have suggested that it was a rocket fell into internally displaced people in a makeshift camp, near the parking lot of the hospital. Apparently the grassy area next to the parking lot was filled with waiting civilians. This could account for an abnormally high number of casualties.

2. Not sure if Israeli sources are convincing at this time but it’s clear Hamas is lying and the cable TV news channels have amplified their lies that Muslim countries immediately acted upon. Whatever hit the hospital in Gaza it wasn’t an airstrike from the IDF. Even the smallest JDAM leaves a 3m crater. Widespread surface damage and total lack of cratering inconsistent with an airstrike.

3. It’s also been noted that Hamas & PIJ misfire or rocket failure rate has gone up. Probable that they are using the bottom of the barrel stock. Both Hamas & PIJ have not been firing after the blast at Al-Ahli Hospital — they know they have a PR problem, if their lies are exposed.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
1. While it is not confirmed but various sources have suggested that it was a rocket fell into internally displaced people in a makeshift camp, near the parking lot of the hospital. Apparently the grassy area next to the parking lot was filled with waiting civilians. This could account for an abnormally high number of casualties.

2. Not sure if Israeli sources are convincing at this time but it’s clear Hamas is lying and the cable TV news channels have amplified their lies that Muslim countries immediately acted upon.

3. It’s also been noted that Hamas & PIJ misfire or rocket failure rate has gone up. Probable that they are using the bottom of the barrel stock. Both Hamas & PIJ have not been firing after the blast at Al-Ahli Hospital — they know they have a PR problem, if their lies are exposed.
As a rule of thumb, Israeli government sources are not going to be dependable for the first few hours. Anything that comes out quickly from anyone seemingly government-related or even a news org, within 30-60 minutes of an incident, should be taken with a grain of salt. The IDF Spokesperson applies excessive censorship so people can only speculate.

While they were caught lying from time to time, and the deception operation during op Guardian of The Walls in May 2021 is certainly a dark mark on their credibility, that's still a very rare occurrence, and is typically isolated to single press releases or tweets, not to coordinated PR campaigns.

But they are known for delaying information release and witholding information.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Now that the whole hospital attack drama has settled, it's nice to reminisce about the all time classic:

In case this news somehow spreads, I want to preempt this by saying that it is either fake, or more likely is going to be misinterpreted by the majority of readers.
Bild reports that Germany is deploying special forces for a hostage (in Gaza) rescue mission.

Gaza is not the type of place in which to conduct such rescue ops, for many reasons. They are explained here:

If this report is true, then what is more likely is the deployment of forces to assist in securing and retrieving, with their assets, German hostages that Hamas willingly surrender. This likely means negotiators, a security detail for the whole ride, and aircraft that can take off and land in the absence of an active civilian airport. A trip between Cyprus and Israel via helicopter is definitely possible.

Disclaimer: I do not have a subscription to Bild, therefore I cannot read the entire article. I rely on this short tweet, which is what most people will see anyway and draw conclusions from.

I did not know the US needed Congress's authorization to conduct military operations other than for self defense. In the article it is said the US has conducted strikes in Syria and Libya without Congress's authorization, instead using another mechanism. Can anyone familiar with the subject shed some light?
 
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I did not know the US needed Congress's authorization to conduct military operations other than for self defense. In the article it is said the US has conducted strikes in Syria and Libya without Congress's authorization, instead using another mechanism. Can anyone familiar with the subject shed some light?
Technically according to the Constitution any war must be declared by Congress, not the President, but since 9/11 the executive branch has made wide use of (some might say abused) the vague language in the Sep 18 2001 Joint Resolution's Authorization for Use of United States Military Force in order to skirt the need for Congressional approval or even notification for specific military operations in the Middle East. The resolution states:

IN GENERAL.—That the President is authorized to use all
necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed,
or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001,
or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent
any future acts of international terrorism against the United States
by such nations, organizations or persons

As you can see, just who such organizations or persons are may be open to interpretation, and this is left quite open ended as to when such operations should be brought to an end.

But even beyond this, there is a long historical tug of war between the legislative and executive branches when it comes to use of military force. The executive branch has constantly tried to use loopholes (like, is it really a war if we didn't declare war?) , and the legislative branch has constantly tried to close them, most notable by requiring Presidents to notify Congress about any use of military force with the 1973 War Powers Resolution.
 
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