Hamas-Israeli War 2023

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
…looking to Arab media and streets, the biggest sentiment still because they see the move will only Help Israel cause and not Palestinians one.

No neighbors will want to accept any refugee, knowing they will never be allowed right to return.
1. Agreed, Egypt & Jordan have valid concerns about Netanyahu’s motives.

2. I would say that this war on Gaza, by day 60, would generate an unacceptable amount of collateral damage, if active measures are not taken to help the IDPs in Gaza.

3. I condemn Netanyahu for his failed policies that brought the region to the brink of a wider conflict. Without funds from Qatar (and Iran), the transfer of which Netanyahu allowed (with his policies that also encouraged hate), Hamas would not have had the money & support to maintain its reign of terror in Gaza. Thank goodness President Biden is able to manage the right-wing Israeli Govt’s response and worse instincts by getting the first aid shipment from Egypt into Gaza.

4. I also condemn Israeli right wing-ministers for encouraging settler violence in violation of Israel’s laws and their blatant rejection of Palestinian suffering from this war.
 
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aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, just catching up on some news, USS Carney has used SM-2 missiles to shoot down 3 Land Attack Missiles and 8 drones in the Red Sea fired from Houthi controlled territory in Yemen !


The Houthi Forces have the the Quds1 & 2 Missiles, not a lot of info out there on them, as you would imagine.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Thought:
For many years, Arab nations have carelessly propped up the narrative of Palestinian statehood at Israel's expense and the maintenance of a permanent threat to Israel.

This put them in a situation in which every policy item with Israel is inherently unpopular. Normalization agreements and their upgrades must be protracted to create an image of an Arab country that cares for its citizens but remains combative for the Palestinian cause.

Now there is an opportunity for Arab nations to ditch that - hold Hamas accountable and create a narrative in which the Arab nations are humane and Hamas has done something that is against their core values.

In the long term, Arab nations must be rid of this narrative that binds them into an unfavorable position with the west.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
1. Agreed, Egypt & Jordan have valid concerns about Netanyahu’s motives.

2. I would say that this war on Gaza, by day 60, would generate an unacceptable amount of collateral damage, if active measures are not taken to help the IDPs in Gaza.

3. I condemn Netanyahu for his failed policies that brought the region to the brink of a wider conflict. Without funds from Qatar (and Iran), the transfer of which Netanyahu allowed (with his policies that also encouraged hate), Hamas would not have had the money & support to maintain its reign of terror in Gaza. Thank goodness President Biden is able to manage the right-wing Israeli Govt’s response and worse instincts by getting the first aid shipment from Egypt into Gaza.

4. I also condemn Israeli right wing-ministers for encouraging settler violence in violation of Israel’s laws and their blatant rejection of Palestinian suffering from this war.
Well said.

If press reports are to be believed, since the Hamas atrocities near Gaza some West Bank settlers have been provoking violence in order to get intervention on their side by the IDF, some have been initiating low-level violence such as stone-throwing & when there's retaliation in kind, escalating to gunfire, & some have been outright murdering Palestinians - & at the moment, are getting away with it.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Well said.

If press reports are to be believed, since the Hamas atrocities near Gaza some West Bank settlers have been provoking violence in order to get intervention on their side by the IDF, some have been initiating low-level violence such as stone-throwing & when there's retaliation in kind, escalating to gunfire, & some have been outright murdering Palestinians - & at the moment, are getting away with it.
Israeli soldiers do not have a mandate to conduct any operations or acts against Israeli civilians, unless as acts of self defense. To deal with disorder in wartime, they wanted to set up the national guard (currently on hold), and against Israeli civilians there is the police. But the police has been understaffed for many years and the trend is still negative. Therefore even if a normal government is elected, extremist settler violence will remain an issue for a while.

Those who follow the news on Gaza and Lebanon, have probably noticed the IDF uses mostly regular guided GP bombs and ATGMs in Gaza, and artillery with white phosphorus (WP) in Lebanon.

The difference here is that in Gaza it's mostly built-up areas in which military infrastructure and weapons are embedded. But in Lebanon, Hezbollah sets up its launching spots in forests. This makes it difficult for the IDF to track and identify rocket artillery infrastructure, and even if one is ID'd, it makes it difficult to refresh intel to enable strike plans.

Kinetically, a GP bomb won't do much against said infrastructure, as much of it is embedded into the ground. So what works really well against forests and metal? WP.

The IDF uses it to destroy launch areas, prevent access to posts, and reveal infrastructure.

And since Hezbollah's MO is to set up distributed launch points, connect them to a single building (usually a shack), and activate them manually, the IDF can tell with high certainty when that area is unmanned, allowing the use of WP.

 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
1. If a Muslim is not brainwashed by social media from Qatar, Turkey or Malaysia, they would understand that supporting Hamas is bad for Gaza. Interestingly, the speaker specifically mentions Dubai & Singapore in contrast to what Hamas failed to build in Gaza (with all the aid). There is a lot of misconception about both Singapore (734.3 km²) and Gaza (365 km²) because we are both small. Singapore is significantly larger than Gaza in land size but the population density is much higher. The number of residents per square kilometre in 4 cities/areas compared.

Singapore — 8,592​
Tel Aviv — 8,468​
Gaza — 6,507​
Hong Kong — 6,300​

2. Urban planning in Singapore is on a different scale. The country invests in water management, water treatment & desalination plants such that by 2060, 85% of our water uses energy to make (aka NEWater & desalination). This means only 15% of our water will come from rain/water catchment areas.
(a) As an island, Singapore is always vulnerable to any water, energy or food embargo. Thankfully, Indonesia has helped diversity our supply of chickens & gas (away from Malaysia).​
(b) Recognising Singapore’s vulnerability, our MFA uses diplomacy to engage powers large, medium & small, to secure our breathing space.​

3. IDF spokesperson Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus told MSNBC that the message was “lost in translation,” as it had been rendered from its original Hebrew to Arabic, and then to English.

“The short message is: vacate, evacuate Northern Gaza. No matter where you are. Whatever facility you’re in, there’s gonna be significant combat, and vacate Northern Gaza,” Conricus said.​

4. India sends humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza:

(a) 6.5 tonnes of Indian medical aid and 32 tonnes of disaster relief material was sent to Palestinians by C-17s. This aid will enter via Egypt;​

(b) Indian aid to be handed over to Egyptian Red Crescent; &​

(c) Indian aid will enter Gaza via Rafah Crossing Point.​

5. Like India and America, the Singapore Red Cross is trying to make sure S$205,000 in aid reaches the people of Gaza. Singapore is between a rock & a hard place.

6. Singapore’s President Tharman Shanmugaratnam shared his thoughts on the ongoing conflict in Gaza, urging authorities to "allow vastly larger amounts of humanitarian aid to enter Gaza to prevent catastrophe". In the Israel-Palestine conflict, we understand our Muslim community’s demand that help be given to civilians caught in the conflict. While our President, & ministers have offered condolences, it is to Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, to preserve the SAF’s neutrality.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
I apologize in advance for posting a Mario Nawfal tweet, but this is a common question that needs to be answered once and for all.


I won't write a wall of text for everyone's sake. I do want to convey my opinion that there IS a solution to every problem, however difficult as it may be. While the exact solution may not be clear, the pillars for such a solution, in my opinion, are:

1. Hamas is a military problem.
2. Hamas demands a military solution.
3. Hamas embeds itself among civilians.
4. Hamas cannot be allowed to persist.
5. Current technology does not yet permit a truly precise destruction of Hamas without harm to civilians.
6. If technology advances to permit that, other technology will allow Hamas to shield itself further.
7. Destruction of Hamas in itself will not prevent the rise of a successor.
8. Full and permanent occupation by Israel is not feasible.
9. Legitimacy is a severe limiting factor for Israel.
10. International involvement boosts legitimacy.
11. International organizations are largely incapable of matching a military response to a military threat. Example: UN peace keepers.

This all is effectively a list of highly contradicting factors, but it does not mean it's impossible to maneuver between them.

Edit:
While I have my own mix of thoughts on why the Gaza op is getting delayed so much, I believe Biden does tremendous service to Israel by coupling the US into this effort. As a nation that tends to act more and talk less, compared to Europe, the US can greatly help Israel to traverse this complex issue, particularly when it comes to some material and financial aspects. Israel is a country of many challenges but little resources.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
For many years, Arab nations have carelessly propped up the narrative of Palestinian statehood at Israel's expense and the maintenance of a permanent threat to Israel.
Look I don't want to open this, as previously this thread only supposed talk the matter of defense and security. However this statement already close to political threshold.

What carelessly? Two state solution is has to be on the expense of both Palestinians and Israel and not the Arab Neighbors. Unless the neighbors want to entertain Israel Right Wing demand to accept all Palestinians in their territory, out of the territory of what used to be call Palestine Territory during Ottoman and British era. So off course it has to be in both Israel and Palestinians expense, no one else.

So either accept Palestinians as part of one Nations or divide the Palestine land into two seperate fully sovereign nation. That's all back to this 75 years unresolved ongoing cycle.

Majority of those who support Palestinians are supporting Palestinians and not Hamas. No matter how some Western and Israel media and politicians try to put it. Hamas is product of this ongoing unresolved conflict that only brew hatred on both sides.

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That's statement on Biden X account is a very big 'if' promises if no solution on statehood status in table. Gaza is not sovereign land, even no Israel soldiers in Gaza ground. Israel has the right to block Gaza movement to their territory but not from Sea and Egypt. If Gaza is sovereign territory, then they should has free movement at least from the sea and Egypt, and not hindered by Israel will. They should have teritorial right on their waters. Without that, then all the argument saying Gaza already self govern entities that some Israel media and Politicians claim to International audiences, is moot.

Destruction of Hamas in itself will not prevent the rise of a successor.
On that I agree. Giving Palestinians their own state back or include them as equal citizens, will not going to eradicate hatred like Hamas or even the extreme Right Wings Isrealis. However it will reduces significantly in time popularities of that movement.


Whatever it is that two state solution that still come put, has to be real two sovereign state solution.
 
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phreeky

Active Member
An Egyptian border position has been hit by an Israeli tank, according to a few news outlets Egyptian army says border guards hurt in accidental hit by Israeli tank

DUBAI, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Several Egyptian border guards sustained minor injuries on Sunday after being accidentally hit by fragments of a shell from an Israeli tank, a spokesperson for the Egyptian army said.

Israel's military earlier said one of its tanks accidentally hit an Egyptian position near the border with the Gaza Strip.

Israel's defence force "expresses sorrow regarding the incident," which is being investigated," it said in a statement, giving no further details.
And it looks like Israel has accepted fault.

One has to wonder why there is shooting going on so close to the border with Egypt, it seems pretty reckless to me. Unfortunately I can't see any information on exactly where it occurred. Of all places, the border to Egypt should be where the greatest level of care should be taken.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
An Egyptian border position has been hit by an Israeli tank, according to a few news outlets Egyptian army says border guards hurt in accidental hit by Israeli tank



And it looks like Israel has accepted fault.

One has to wonder why there is shooting going on so close to the border with Egypt, it seems pretty reckless to me. Unfortunately I can't see any information on exactly where it occurred. Of all places, the border to Egypt should be where the greatest level of care should be taken.
Incidents like this are to be expected given the ongoing fighting. Presumably there are channels open between Egypt and Israel for de-escalating and investigating incidents like this one to close them out.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
An Egyptian border position has been hit by an Israeli tank, according to a few news outlets Egyptian army says border guards hurt in accidental hit by Israeli tank



And it looks like Israel has accepted fault.

One has to wonder why there is shooting going on so close to the border with Egypt, it seems pretty reckless to me.
Hamas are well known for using human shields for their operations. They tend to put critical functions in hospitals, schools, etc. and it would not surprise me if they put critical functions for their terrorist activities also close to the border crossing with Egypt, to provoke exactly the response you provided above. hamas_human_shields.pdf (stratcomcoe.org)
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hamas are well known for using human shields for their operations. They tend to put critical functions in hospitals, schools, etc. and it would not surprise me if they put critical functions for their terrorist activities also close to the border crossing with Egypt, to provoke exactly the response you provided above. hamas_human_shields.pdf (stratcomcoe.org)
It's also a very small territory with very high density. Even without Hamas hiding behind human shields, there is a likelihood of accidents like these. Unless/until we get a detailed breakdown of the specific incident, we shouldn't read too much into them. These things tend to happen when conflicts break out.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Amir Weitmann, the head of the Likud’s libertarian caucus and a senior member of the party appeared on the Russian government’s RT channel and gave some very strongly worded warnings to Russia.

“Russia is supporting the enemies of Israel. Russia is supporting Nazi people who want to commit genocide on us and Russia will pay the price. We’re gonna win this war. Afterwards, we’re not forgetting what you’re doing, we’re not forgetting, we will come, we will make sure Ukraine wins. We will make sure that you pay the price for what you have done, you as Russia.”

Listening to his emotional outburst I am wondering if he may have seen some pretty convincing intel that could directly implicate Russia in the terrorist attack. Ukrainian intelligence has said they have evidence of Wagner troops in Africa training Hamas soldiers.

@Big_Zucchini what is your take on this? Could it be that Israel possess intelligence implicating Russia in the 7. October terrorist attack?

Israeli official warns Russia: 'You will pay for backing Hamas!' - Israel Today
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Increasing number of Merkava with cages. Interesting that some of those western/pro ukrainian online defense pundits, even those under mainstream media stay silence when the cages now being used by Israel Mercava.

Remember months before constant ridicule by them, when Russian increase this cages in Ukrainian fronts. Then decreasing when Ukrainian also use them, and now silence. Perhaps when Israel used them, it is suddenly become make sense.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
What carelessly? Two state solution is has to be on the expense of both Palestinians and Israel and not the Arab Neighbors. Unless the neighbors want to entertain Israel Right Wing demand to accept all Palestinians in their territory, out of the territory of what used to be call Palestine Territory during Ottoman and British era. So off course it has to be in both Israel and Palestinians expense, no one else.

So either accept Palestinians as part of one Nations or divide the Palestine land into two seperate fully sovereign nation. That's all back to this 75 years unresolved ongoing cycle.

Majority of those who support Palestinians are supporting Palestinians and not Hamas. No matter how some Western and Israel media and politicians try to put it. Hamas is product of this ongoing unresolved conflict that only brew hatred on both sides.
The normalization process, or the Abraham Accords, has largely been politically tied, by Arab nations, to Palestine. The recurring theme is grand demands, then appearance of some "concessions" on the Arab nations' part, then an agreement based on a purely symbolic gesture. The UAE, for example, demanded only that Israel does not annex the Jordan valley for 6 months after Israel announced it was planning to. 6 months after the normalization - nothing happened. No annexation, not even any talks about it. They faded as quickly as they appeared. In other words - every policy regarding Israel, requires them to first deconstruct the political connection to Palestine. So in the current state of things, this tie is a hindrance. It is particularly harmful when there is general anger in the Arab street toward Israel, as there is now.

What is currently at stake? The Israel-Saudi corridor for euroasian trade.

Generally, it is unhealthy for any nation to tie its policies to the state of another nation. The existence of NATO is one such example. The security of every member nation is tied in a way to the security of all other members. However, NATO is a well-thought and robust framework that frequently re-validates itself via new missions and reorganization, as well as the provision of sufficient autonomy to its members even within its core mission. That is, even if a member is called to action, it can decide the capacity in which it assists.

The Arab world's policy to tie Palestine to Israel can be explained in many ways. But it is arguable that this decision is obsolete. But instead of reversing it, it was neglected and allowed to grow.

I also believe the matter of a one state or two state solution for Palestine is a feint. There is no room to negotiate any political solution for Palestine when they're still a nation with no government or any form of representation. Yes, they have Hamas governing them in Gaza. And they have the PA in the Judea and Samaria region, and the PA is even internationally recognized. But is any of them a legitimate government that can express the will and vision of the Palestinian people? I highly doubt it. These entities have shown time and again that they care very little about their people, and are overly confrontational with any foreign government. They certainly aren't elected, and unlike dictatorships they haven't shown the capacity to exist on a day to day basis independently.

Therefore, for decades, the Arab world has demanded of Israel to negotiate something that it cannot really negotiate, with someone that is unable to negotiate - yet they haven't contributed to alleviating any of Palestine's issues, whether political or practical.

This eventually ties to the current state of affairs - Palestinians have none to govern them in the endgame of the current war. There were proposals to bring in the PA, but they're not going to bring a sustainable situation. If anything, their presence will only legitimize the persistence of a non-viable status quo.

That's statement on Biden X account is a very big 'if' promises if no solution on statehood status in table. Gaza is not sovereign land, even no Israel soldiers in Gaza ground. Israel has the right to block Gaza movement to their territory but not from Sea and Egypt. If Gaza is sovereign territory, then they should has free movement at least from the sea and Egypt, and not hindered by Israel will. They should have teritorial right on their waters. Without that, then all the argument saying Gaza already self govern entities that some Israel media and Politicians claim to International audiences, is moot.
There is no entitlement to territorial waters. It must come from agreements. Gaza may be a sovereign state in many ways, but Israel never forfeited its recognized rights to the waters around Gaza. It has voluntarily allowed Gaza to maintain high autonomy there, including fishing and drawing of water for desalination. But Israel is not obligated to give up its rights to maintain a security lock on these waters, as well as economical rights.

It is wrong to assume that the many privileges and aid Israel provided to Gaza are its obligation. They are not, and Israel is entitled to revoke them at any moment. For a fact, it doesn't.

Regarding Egypt, Israel doesn't actually prevent Egypt from doing anything by force. There are good security ties, and both listen to one another. Incidents occur, but overall they coordinate pretty much everything there.

@Big_Zucchini what is your take on this? Could it be that Israel possess intelligence implicating Russia in the 7. October terrorist attack?
Russia is complicit in many ways. I have no idea about the decision to launch the invasion operation, but there is indeed cooperation between the two.

My opinion? His words were blown out of proportion. He is a businessman but when it comes to politics - his influence is basically none. I also highly doubt he has any access to up-to-date intelligence.

Increasing number of Merkava with cages. Interesting that some of those western/pro ukrainian online defense pundits, even those under mainstream media stay silence when the cages now being used by Israel Mercava.

Remember months before constant ridicule by them, when Russian increase this cages in Ukrainian fronts. Then decreasing when Ukrainian also use them, and now silence. Perhaps when Israel used them, it is suddenly become make sense.
The ridicule was connected to the makeshift nature of early Russian cope cages, as well as baseless claims that they were either intended or effective against top attack munitions like the Javelin.

More modern, properly designed and built ones, are not ridiculed. Especially when their implementation is coupled to the more realistic threat they face - drones. That's my observation at least.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
1. As Barak Obama wrote recently, it is “important that those of us supporting Israel in its time of need encourage a strategy that can incapacitate Hamas while minimizing further civilian casualties. Israel’s recent shift to allow relief trucks into Gaza, prompted in part by the Biden administration’s behind-the-scenes diplomacy, is an encouraging step, but we need to continue to lead the international community in accelerating critical aid and supplies to an increasingly desperate Gaza population.”
2. I would say that this war on Gaza, by day 60, would generate an unacceptable amount of collateral damage, if active measures are not taken to help the IDPs in Gaza.

3. I condemn Netanyahu for his failed policies that brought the region to the brink of a wider conflict. Without funds from Qatar (and Iran), the transfer of which Netanyahu allowed (with his policies that also encouraged hate), Hamas would not have had the money & support to maintain its reign of terror in Gaza. Thank goodness President Biden is able to manage the right-wing Israeli Govt’s response and worse instincts by getting the first aid shipment from Egypt into Gaza.

4. I also condemn Israeli right wing-ministers for encouraging settler violence in violation of Israel’s laws and their blatant rejection of Palestinian suffering from this war.
2. I echo the same call made by Barak Obama and President Tharman Shanmugaratnam, of Singapore, for aid to Gaza to flow. This is a concern shared by Indonesia.

3. Meanwhile:

(a) I call upon Hamas to release all hostages they hold.​

(b) Eli Cohen, Israel's top diplomat, pressures families of Israeli hostages to nix meeting with the UN Chief but several met him regardless. This is why Israelis heckle Cohen demanding that he resign.​
 
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