Israeli Army News & Discussion

swerve

Super Moderator
...
The IDF is also in advanced negotiations with 2 unnamed customers - one of them European, for sale of over 200 old Merkava 2 and 3 tanks.
The tanks are old but were modernized thoroughly throughout their lives and with a refurb they could be a potent armored force, including modern optics, modern armament, and solid ergonomics for a comfortable transition.
It is reasonable to assume the European customer has requested Merkava 3 tanks, although I could be wrong. If true, it could allow some eastern European nations to begin standardizing on 120mm instead of the 125mm....
Poland, Czechia, Slovakia & Hungary are already well on the way. All are replacing 125mm armed tanks with 120mm armed tanks. All four have or are getting Leopard 2, & Poland is procuring M1 & K2.

Romania seems to be most in need of replacements for its current tanks. It's still operating tanks rather like the T-55 in many respects, & never moved on from the rifled 100mm. It's recently been rumoured to be seeking 300 M1, but perhaps it could be interested in Merkava.

Would Ukraine be interested in a few hundred 100mm armed MBTs?
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
IDF officially unveils the Merkava 4 Barak MBT. It is a comprehensive tankionics upgrade featuring improvements in situational awareness, short and long range sensory, communications, and battle management.
The goal is to make this tank more responsive and better capable of closing very short engagement loops, as well as capable of operating in increasingly restrictive environment which necessitates closed hatch combat.



Translated list of features (link):
  • Closed hatch combat - The whole crew, including tank commander, will be protected throughout the entire mission. The commander will have an Iron Vision helmet that will allow him to safely observe the tank's surroundings, reducing the threat of sniper fire.
  • Advanced image processing and AI for instantaneous response - 5th crewman (i.e AI is like a 5th crewman).
  • Trophy APS with quick data analysis capabilities.
  • Advanced day and night observation capabilities, turret cameras, hull cameras, and perimeter defense (capabilities).
  • New gunner and commander controls for turret traverse, ranging, and firing.
  • Improved observation and detection capabilities.
  • High connectivity with varied forces in the combat area. Additional connectivity via Torch 750 BMS.
  • Improved capability of engagement loop closure on the battalion combat team and brigade combat team, making it faster, more precise, and higher quality.
  • Improved power storage and management capabilities.
  • Rapid data generation and reception capabilities, its transfer to strike elements as well as between military branches. Advanced digital systems and real time intelligence transfer.
  • Wide sensory infrastructure allowing deeper and more reliable area (intelligence) persistence.
  • Improved gunner sight named "Leshem" with advanced day and night surveillance capability.


Timeline:
2015 - Concept phase.
2016 - Market analysis and characterization together with industries.
2018 - Full scale development.
2020 - Technical trials.
2021 - Operational-technical trials.
2023 - In service.
Rather comprehensive upgrade that will probably be the last for the Merkava Mk4 atleast. When you consider the Carmel technology demonstrations a few years back, the way other western MBT trends seem to be moving. The next step beyond Burak would likely require stripping the Tank to a steel and starting with a blank sheet for electrical, propulsion, armor, and mission equipment. Likely requiring at the very least a new turret.
 

Big_Zucchini

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New video just dropped, showing some of the new systems.

Rather comprehensive upgrade that will probably be the last for the Merkava Mk4 atleast. When you consider the Carmel technology demonstrations a few years back, the way other western MBT trends seem to be moving. The next step beyond Burak would likely require stripping the Tank to a steel and starting with a blank sheet for electrical, propulsion, armor, and mission equipment. Likely requiring at the very least a new turret.
I think we'll see the Mark 4 getting at least another face lift. After all, in the current armored corps structure, a brand new tank lives about 30 years until it's retired.
But yes, new designs may try to leverage existing chassis, but a total reconfiguration of the superstructure is necessary. And that might even be a way to bring life into old vehicles.

Poland, Czechia, Slovakia & Hungary are already well on the way. All are replacing 125mm armed tanks with 120mm armed tanks. All three have or are getting Leopard 2, & Poland is procuring M1 & K2.

Romania seems to be most in need of replacements for its current tanks. It's still operating tanks rather like the T-55 in many respects, & never moved on from the rifled 100mm. It's recently been rumoured to be seeking 300 M1, but perhaps it could be interested in Merkava.

Would Ukraine be interested in a few hundred 100mm armed MBTs?
I'm not keeping my fingers crossed on Merkavas in eastern Europe. That region is still somewhat politically hostile to Israel, and their market is indeed quite saturated. But when it comes to defense acquisition, a running production with immediately available stock is a rare and highly valued commodity. The Merkava has been in a constant production since the late 70's, churning out 30 tanks per year on average, with an option to quickly ramp it up, and deliver first brand new units within months.
Europe's defense market is interesting to follow right now, but it's too early to tell whether it'll be the customers or manufacturers doing the chasing. If European production appears saturated, the Merkava may get some eyeballing from other continents. Usually it's the unresponsive Israeli government, and not lack of interest, that kills such deals.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
I think we'll see the Mark 4 getting at least another face lift. After all, in the current armored corps structure, a brand new tank lives about 30 years until it's retired.
But yes, new designs may try to leverage existing chassis, but a total reconfiguration of the superstructure is necessary. And that might even be a way to bring life into old vehicles.
Maybe some make up but I think Barak is it.
The reason I argue this is the degree of shifts we are seeing in technology.
Merkava Mk4 is now a 20 year old design. Barak is the second major update after the addition of the Trophy system. A Third major overhaul likely wouldn’t come to fruition until the 2030s with Merkava mk4 then being 30 years old.
Like the latest Abrams A2 or Leopard 2 Merkava 4s been kept up to modern standards, but the problem is the base technology and systems architecture that Armies have used to this point to upgrade MBT and IFV is at its fundamental obsolescence point. Adding new capabilities is adding tones.

The method used to modernize Armored vehicles for the last century has been the “Bolt on” approach. Want to add a system to an MBT? Drill holes, run cables bolt in electrical boxes and mount your system. Install and wire you interface and Then you need to counter weight to keep the turret in balance. Do that enough and a 55 tone Tank becomes a 70 tone behemoth. It means your commander now has a second or third joy stick, the fighting compartment has less room and more equipment.

Programs like Carmel have aimed for the “IPhone” approach. Where in if you want to add a system you plug it into the existing vehicle computers upload an App and then mount it.
Doing that to an existing vehicle system requires gutting the vehicle. As the existing architecture needs to be replaced and reworked to network all the existing components replaced and a master computer installed. Even the soldier “touch points” MFD’s, joysticks and the like are replaced by a consolidated version. Like when we started liv
This would also likely go through from wiring to mechanicals, turret motors to final drives because to do the job right your going that deep anyway. Might as well replace the copper with fiber optic, and go hybrid. Trends we see making the rounds in other MBT that among other things reduce weight.
Well your at that you might as well upgrade the defense.
Merkava 4 was the First MBT to field in large numbers with a Hardkill APS. Trophy which is rapidly becoming the NATO standard. The next generation of Trophy is likely to seek to add a top attack defense capability which is likely to require a third countermeasure dispenser. Such could be added to Mk 4 no doubt but with a weight penalty. A new Turret could bypass that penalty by having it “baked in”.
At that point if you’re already going to replace the turret then might as well look at a rethinking of the armament and magazine. Which leads to a new MBT.

It is abundantly clear the IDF is making a major investment in the Namer/Merkava family for its armored vehicle fleet. These vehicles chassis/Hulls can be upgraded. New turrets,new suspensions, new electrical, new drives and more the challenge is Integrating.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Not an armour guy, but the trends seem to go towards optionally manned systems and electric drives. And of course, cheap disposal drones are likely to be get more and more advanced.

The Mk4, as far as I can tell, isn't really a dramatic leap in either of those directions, but an evolution of existing tech (better sensor fusion, APS) that they have been working on.

A question I have is, whether a clean sheet design is on the horizon?
 

Big_Zucchini

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Maybe some make up but I think Barak is it.
The reason I argue this is the degree of shifts we are seeing in technology.
Merkava Mk4 is now a 20 year old design. Barak is the second major update after the addition of the Trophy system. A Third major overhaul likely wouldn’t come to fruition until the 2030s with Merkava mk4 then being 30 years old.
Oh, no I meant a brand new tank in terms of production, not design. Once it's delivered to the army, it has 30 years. This means the Barak has 30 years ahead of it unless the IDF chooses to downsize its armored corps even further (just recently closed another brigade, now down to 10 + 1 instructional).

Not an armour guy, but the trends seem to go towards optionally manned systems and electric drives. And of course, cheap disposal drones are likely to be get more and more advanced.

The Mk4, as far as I can tell, isn't really a dramatic leap in either of those directions, but an evolution of existing tech (better sensor fusion, APS) that they have been working on.

A question I have is, whether a clean sheet design is on the horizon?
For Israel? Likely. Globally? Definitely.

Is this Barak going to be call Merkava MkV ? Cause seems Elbit call it as 5th gen of Merkava.
I think it's more marketing related. The IDF insists on calling it a Merkava 4 as essentially that's exactly what it is, just with new systems attached and some internal components overhauled. It is a large capability leap, but it's not a new vehicle in itself.
A new Mark is generally when designers have the liberty to make significant mechanical changes, for example replacing the drivetrain or a new turret, none of which is the case here.
The IDF also insists that the next MBT they'll develop will not be a Merkava but the beginning of a new family. One major improvement they'd like to install but is outside the scope of the Barak upgrade is an auto-loader and a crew capsule. That will take time.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
One major improvement they'd like to install but is outside the scope of the Barak upgrade is an auto-loader and a crew capsule. That will take time.
Again, not an expert here, but either features are going to add further weight to an already heavy tank.

I would presume an autoloader will also cause significant design change to the way ammunition is stored as well. And I am not sure is it just a good to have, since I don't see / or maybe appreciate how this helps IDF.
 

Big_Zucchini

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Again, not an expert here, but either features are going to add further weight to an already heavy tank.

I would presume an autoloader will also cause significant design change to the way ammunition is stored as well. And I am not sure is it just a good to have, since I don't see / or maybe appreciate how this helps IDF.
The move toward autoloaders and crew capsules is part of the Carmel program, as was the Barak, and is more geared toward implementation in an all-new platform. Whether or not the Merkava series will be overhauled for such features is a topic that has yet to reach the public and personally I do not consider it likely.
In the Carmel program, which IAI eventually won, the IDF requested industry to come up with a solution for a generic AFV with a basic crew of 2, commander and driver, situated in a capsule. Both operate the weaponry located in a remote turret. Hence, no human loader.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Again, not an expert here, but either features are going to add further weight to an already heavy tank.

I would presume an autoloader will also cause significant design change to the way ammunition is stored as well. And I am not sure is it just a good to have, since I don't see / or maybe appreciate how this helps IDF.
Weight gain is a complicated issue. Much of it sources to how the MBT is built. A lot of modern MBT are built with old bones. Mechanical and electrical components that were brand new about 2 decades ago that were then plugged into the back end of a computer system. 2 tons of copper wire that could easily be replaced by fiber optic for a significant weight savings. Mechanical transmissions that were essential 2 decades back but today could be replaced by electric systems. Even without a complete reconfiguration of the MBT just ripping out much of the old systems could easily buy back a few tons.

An automatic loader doesn’t actually reduce the weight it’s that it usually brings a smaller turret which is lighter in weight. An Unmanned turret would farther reduce that as it doesn’t need to have anywhere near the base armor. Yes it would change the ammunition stowage but Merkava is already very unusual in that.
 

Big_Zucchini

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I don't remember if I posted this on the Hamas-Israel war thread, so I'm posting here as well:

Hamas brought quite a few munition types with them and studied all possible armored vehicles around Gaza. A few interesting notes are that Trophy seems to be limited to subsonic threats, and RPGs can get through if fired under 50m from the platform.
Weak points are turret ring area, a narrow section on the rear end of the side hull armor, and the rear door.
Even on older HAPCs like Achzarit and Nakpadon, they focus on the rear door.
 

Big_Zucchini

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I believed at first the IDF concentrated its best forces around Gaza. I was wrong. Here are modern Merkava 4M-400 MBTs along the Lebanon border, with improved Trophy systems.

Namers with Trophy, Merkava 4 without Trophy, and what is likely reservists (judging by lack of helmet covers and old uniforms), along the Gaza border. The IDF seems to ramp up its deployments and simultaneously mix and match units to create a healthy quality balance between potential fronts.

Israel reportedly tells UN to evacuate Palestinians from north to southern Gaza "within 24 hours". However, the IDF's methodologies rarely include ultimatums. What typically happens is real time intelligence is collected to ensure the evacuation went through, and an attack occurs then.
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Big_Zucchini

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There is a certain likelihood we may see an IDF stand-down regarding Gaza. This should not stand in conflict with increasing deployments around Gaza.
 

Feanor

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Merkava 4 tanks now seen with cope cages.
When done right with statistics to back it up, slat armor can provide a decent amount of protection, albeit typically against a limited number of threat types.
A closer look shows that these are anti-drone roof cages, not actual slat armor. They're likely (and rightly) more concerned with drones dropping munitions, then they are with actual top-attack ATGMs. But I think it illustrates my earlier point about Israel (not just Israel of course) having some lessons to learn about the new nature of warfare. And I think this conflict is an excellent opportunity to do so.

 

Big_Zucchini

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A closer look shows that these are anti-drone roof cages, not actual slat armor. They're likely (and rightly) more concerned with drones dropping munitions, then they are with actual top-attack ATGMs. But I think it illustrates my earlier point about Israel (not just Israel of course) having some lessons to learn about the new nature of warfare. And I think this conflict is an excellent opportunity to do so.
Indeed it seems from the 4th image that this is supposed to act as some spaced armor rather than slat.
Merkava 4 tanks have thick composite armor on the roof, however it is likely designed for attacks from shallow elevation angles, not direct drop-down munitions. A large standoff should reduce much of a shaped charge munition's penetration capability.
I assume some work will be done to improve capability vs drones via an APS as well.

One item I believe to be crucial especially now against drones is an RCWS, which unfortunately is missing on Israeli tanks, and only made an appearance on a computer model of a Barak MBT.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
One item I believe to be crucial especially now against drones is an RCWS, which unfortunately is missing on Israeli tanks, and only made an appearance on a computer model of a Barak MBT.
The spiral of technology is quite interesting. Originally the turret-roof mounted machineguns on tanks were meant for anti-air, especially helicopters. At least on Soviet tanks, I'm assuming it was analogous in the west. And now we're discussing RCWS on tanks being used as AAA all over again, but this time against drones. Personally I can't help but wonder if the RCWS and the radars from the APS can be linked up.
 

Big_Zucchini

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The spiral of technology is quite interesting. Originally the turret-roof mounted machineguns on tanks were meant for anti-air, especially helicopters. At least on Soviet tanks, I'm assuming it was analogous in the west. And now we're discussing RCWS on tanks being used as AAA all over again, but this time against drones. Personally I can't help but wonder if the RCWS and the radars from the APS can be linked up.
My perspective is instead of seeing a return, we're arriving at a point where missiles, guns, and projectiles (now being systems by themselves), are shifting away from specific purposes into being general purpose munitions where instead of being an anti-something projectile, it's now looked at as a projectile with X warhead, Y range, and Z speed. Artillery guns will be used for air defense, missiles used for interception as well as ground attack, and so on.
It's a shame an RCWS was not adopted for Merkavas. I have no idea why, but I'm not going to claim the IDF doesn't have its own fair share of counter-productive traditions.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Appeal to the Moderators @OPSSG @ngatimozart @Feanor @webmaster @Preceptor -

Please open up the Gaza thread with strict requirements to discuss only the military and war developments so far. Things are heating up over there and its sad that we cannot discuss it on such a well moderated forum.

I undertand and appreciate the difficulties of moderating such a highly politically charged topic, but I do believe that the members of this website can follow the rules and together we can have obejective discussions.
 
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