International Army News Thread
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SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
I want to discuss the "K2 phenomenon".
The south korean "K2" MBT was basically unknown in the west and reached peak popularity after Poland announced they wanted to procure a total of 1000 ( 820 + 180 ) Black Panthers.
Journalists, analists, and many other predicted that " The K2 will be the successor of the Leopard 2 in many countries, especially in Europe".
Basically, a lot of people predicted the "death" of the Leo2 and an avalanche of orders for the korean tank.
Tech, price, delivery times, the possibility of g2g deals with south korea... The K2 had really the opportunity of booming in the European market.
But...Was it actually a flop?
These are the winners of European MBT procurement deals in the last 24 months:
Poland: M1 Abrams , K2 Black Panther
Germany: Leopard 2
Norway: Leopard 2
Czech Republic: Leopard 2
Hungary: Leopard 2
Slovakia: Leopard 2
Italy: Leopard 2
Romania: M1 Abrams
Leopard 2 was selected by 6/8 countries, M1 Abrams by 2/8 countries while K2 only by 1/8 ( Poland ) even if it participated in evaluating in Norway and was proposed to Romania, Slovakia and Czech Republic.
Hungarian Leopard 2s were ordere before the war but deliveries are still ongoing and started only in 2021.
Why didnt the K2 sold a single unit outside of Poland?
Why basically every country decided to buy from KNDS or GD?
The south korean "K2" MBT was basically unknown in the west and reached peak popularity after Poland announced they wanted to procure a total of 1000 ( 820 + 180 ) Black Panthers.
Journalists, analists, and many other predicted that " The K2 will be the successor of the Leopard 2 in many countries, especially in Europe".
Basically, a lot of people predicted the "death" of the Leo2 and an avalanche of orders for the korean tank.
Tech, price, delivery times, the possibility of g2g deals with south korea... The K2 had really the opportunity of booming in the European market.
But...Was it actually a flop?
These are the winners of European MBT procurement deals in the last 24 months:
Poland: M1 Abrams , K2 Black Panther
Germany: Leopard 2
Norway: Leopard 2
Czech Republic: Leopard 2
Hungary: Leopard 2
Slovakia: Leopard 2
Italy: Leopard 2
Romania: M1 Abrams
Leopard 2 was selected by 6/8 countries, M1 Abrams by 2/8 countries while K2 only by 1/8 ( Poland ) even if it participated in evaluating in Norway and was proposed to Romania, Slovakia and Czech Republic.
Hungarian Leopard 2s were ordere before the war but deliveries are still ongoing and started only in 2021.
Why didnt the K2 sold a single unit outside of Poland?
Why basically every country decided to buy from KNDS or GD?
In Norway, the K2 "won" the technical evaluation and was the preferred solution by most in the army. It was technically somewhat superior, and cheaper. However both met the minimal technical requirements, and for political reasons the Leo was chosen.
Interesting to note that the outcome for artillery was different: K9 was chosen by Norway, Finland, Estonia and Poland. Norway did a very thorough analysis (just like for the K2/Leo) with testing in Norway during winter, and the tests and analyses showed that the K9 was clearly superior in arctic winter conditions and was therefore chosen. The test results were shared with Finland who reached the same conclusion and chose the K9.
Pzh 2000, Caesar and M109G Fire kjemper om å blir Norges nye artilleri - Tu.no
Norway had actually signed a contract with Sweden to codevelop Archer however left the contract and initiated a competition.
I do not know the details but I suspect the Norwegian armed forces very much preferred tracked not wheeled artillery. They also preferred a mature design, not something that needed development. Archer now looks great, if one is happy with a wheeled system.
Terran
Well-Known Member
Opinion
Norway was a the Bid undercut the K2. Hungry as stated prewar. Germany obviously wasn’t going to abandon its own tank.
Poland really is 2 armies today and 2 armies tomorrow with K2 and Abrams fighting side by side. Though the K2 they got deliveries of us dramatically different from the K2PL Poland wants. Poland was shopping for a defense industry more than a Tank and K2PL will be the center of that. Opening a new tank production facility and routing maintenance for European K9, K10 and any other Hanwha vehicles though Poland.
the Rest of the list I think falls into the category of War time reaction and expediency. Even Poland to a degree made changes based on wartime expediency in accepting M1A1 models and Korean Spec K2 to back fill large number of its PT72 and PT91 fleets as they were transferred.
Many of these countries weren’t shopping MBT or were at some point years from now. Keeping Soviet vintage machines or having rolled up their Armored units years ago.
Then Russia invaded Ukraine and suddenly much of European priorities changed. Suddenly many of these countries were shipping off their old Soviet tanks to the east to support Ukraine. Tanks that had been moth balled or used for exercises were reactivated and rolling out. Armies that hadn’t had combined arms in a decade are dusting off manuals and looking to get whatever they can soonest. Leaving voids the Germans and Americans we’re happy to back fill them with Abrams and Leopards 2s on an accelerated basis.
Italy who had been sitting on its aging and rapidly outdated despite being fairly young tank fleet suddenly realized it need to hit the accelerator for Tank modernization and ordered Leopard2 well shifting moneys to refresh its indigenous tanks.
Germany has found itself both needing to shift excess resources out of country to rearming neighbors and critically short as it had bleed its forces dry.
As all this happened the old adage “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.”
For Romania I think K2 would have been the Perfect tank, but Abrams were offered for a song. Had Romania been shopping in 2026 I think they would’ve bough K2. In 2022… not so much.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Your views are basically alligned with mine... K2 is a good product but european countries have chosen politically ( which is a really good thing IMHO ) and consequently the Leopard was selected 75% of the times.
This is, however, a huge blow to the K2.
The polish deal is surely extremely important and the numbers, even if they are cut by half, are still huge. By did Poland really have any other choice?
I'll explain myself:
Poland needed a brand-new tank, they are already buying used M1 abrams ( in various versions ) from the US but they needed local production.
So the choice was really between 3 options: the Leopard 2, the K2 and to develop a new tank.
Poland is one of the most eurosceptic and nationalist country in the EU. The current government is engaged in a political war against the rest of the Union and the EU institutions, because as you know after the pandemics the EU started a fast and unheard-of integration process that the poles are not willing to follow.
The Leopard 2, being german, was clearly not a possible choice for the current nationalist-polish government.
Poland however dont have a big enough economy to sustain the development of a new MBT... their GDP is only the 6th of the EU and just 1/8 of the german one.
So here goes also the third choice... developing a new MBT was simply impossible.
The K2, as you see... really had no competitors.
Every other country in europe preferred to buy a european-made tank or to lease US tanks, but no one selected the K2 despite the korean tank being offered to basically every army.
This is, however, a huge blow to the K2.
The polish deal is surely extremely important and the numbers, even if they are cut by half, are still huge. By did Poland really have any other choice?
I'll explain myself:
Poland needed a brand-new tank, they are already buying used M1 abrams ( in various versions ) from the US but they needed local production.
So the choice was really between 3 options: the Leopard 2, the K2 and to develop a new tank.
Poland is one of the most eurosceptic and nationalist country in the EU. The current government is engaged in a political war against the rest of the Union and the EU institutions, because as you know after the pandemics the EU started a fast and unheard-of integration process that the poles are not willing to follow.
The Leopard 2, being german, was clearly not a possible choice for the current nationalist-polish government.
Poland however dont have a big enough economy to sustain the development of a new MBT... their GDP is only the 6th of the EU and just 1/8 of the german one.
So here goes also the third choice... developing a new MBT was simply impossible.
The K2, as you see... really had no competitors.
Every other country in europe preferred to buy a european-made tank or to lease US tanks, but no one selected the K2 despite the korean tank being offered to basically every army.
Terran
Well-Known Member
I think it’s a bit more complicated than that in areas and much more simple in others.
I think again expediency of war. The K2 Poland has received thus far are not the K2PL but Korean Army spec K2 that were rush delivery to Poland from Korean Army orders to back fill. About 180 units to make up for those PT72 and PT91 now sporting Blue and Yellow. This means that the proposition of another European country buying though possible would likely have to wait until the Koreans have open slots up or the Polish line starts moving.
Yes Norway did turn down K2N. Okay but, they placed that order at their leisure.
Looking at the post February 2022 orders and transfers the fleets developing are build on older tanks.
What has driven Poland to make their choices of late though is I suspect not EU Skepticism but rather annoyance with the Germans.
The Leopard 2 isn’t being replaced by K2PL but rather M1A2SEP3 Abrams.
The Polish government in 03 and 13 built a Polish army around modernized older Warsaw Pact indigenous vehicles and until recently a baby Bundeswehr. Poland bought and operated a not insignificant number of Leopard 2 tanks and other German army equipment.
Warsaw has spent the last 10 years fighting Berlin tooth and nail to try and modernize that fleet.
A process that was dragged out and delayed to the point it’s all but impossible. We see something similar with the Leopard 2 repair shop negotiations today.
The Poles got tired of it. Poland chose the Abrams to replace the Leopard 2 in April 202.
Realistically they didn’t have much other choice. Leclerc had long ago left production and it’s builder is now part of the same firm that makes Leopard 2. Challanger 2 isn’t just a cold line but an obsolete tank same for the Ariete. The Altay is still not ready yet. So the Americans who though GDLS may not be building new Abrams is happy to refurbish them and has a Huge support network and stocks. So they could be maintained.
Still having the drama with the Leopard 2PL. Poland clearly could see the need to have its own AFV industry. They long built their own tanks in when they were behind the iron curtain and were doing so until relatively recently. With their Warsaw pact models aging out, a
Doctrinal want of a second lighter MBT they shopped around. The K2. Hanwha was happy to modify the design and indiginize a new model for Poland. The K2PL is not what the Poles have been getting delivery of. As I said above the Korean Spec K2 has been arriving to back fill. Those are shorter lighter MBT than the K2PL Wolf will be.
Does K2 not getting orders make the K2 a failure? With a Combined order of 1000 K2 and K2PL the K2 in Europe would out number the whole builds of Leclerc, Challanger 1/2/3 and C1 Ariete. Combine with Korean orders is about 1400 units is hardly a failure with other potential customers in the Middle East and still potential down the line.
Though it may not have succeeded as becoming the #3 European MBT behind Abrams and Leopard in 2023 its still in a respectable place.
The Koreans and Poles clearly have intentions to modernize it and with Both Abrams and Leopard 2 being over 40 years old they are both reaching the end of service lives. Things could change down the line most of the Leopard 2 moving around Europe are older A4, modernization would be needed and getting that going would have to have Germany willing to work out better dealings than they did with Poland. Rebuilding a spare parts and maintenance infrastructure that doesn’t seem to be open yet.
So rather than a long term deal here where Leopard2 has taken an unopposed position and K2 was no competition. I think what we have is a short term status that could change dramatically around the turn of the decade. Leopard 2A4 are okay for now great for relearning how to do armored combat but numbers are limited and they are fairly old. If poland couldn’t get a good deal to overhaul their Leo’s despite having a fairly respectable fleet of 186 tanks. one should wonder about the state whom has less than 2 dozen.
We also have another member joint in Cyprus is part of the EU and they just placed an order to back fill their tank fleet… with Israel. Merkava 3s. Not Leopard2 or Abrams or K2. An older Israeli tank.
This again I think points strongly to this all being a temporary state of events. These armies I think will use Leopard 2A4 to retrain themselves and rebuild the muscles of conventional forces that the peace dividend allowed to atrophy. As the clock ticks I do not see Leopard 2 as the one size fits all solution. Some like Germany will modernize. Others will seek a next step. K2 is a nice option here as it’s a stepping stone to future development. Once the line starts in Poland, then K2PL Wolf will be a European Tank. It has much of the most modern features baked In including future upgunning to a 130mm.
If not K2 then K3 already being talked about.
If not K3 then Rhinemetall Kf51 Panther or MGCS. The fact is Leopard 2 has more days behind it then in front of it.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Another country we should add to those that preferred the Leopard over the K2.
Or, one could say, another victory for the Leopard and loss for the K2.
www.defensenews.com
Or, one could say, another victory for the Leopard and loss for the K2.
Lithuania picks Leopard 2 tank over Abrams, Black Panther
The Baltic nation is beefing up its land forces in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
www.defensenews.com
Terran
Well-Known Member
Romania is apparently still up for grabs.
Despite the clickbait headline. It’s actually more of a maybe to K2 as they are also in talks with KNWS.
Despite the clickbait headline. It’s actually more of a maybe to K2 as they are also in talks with KNWS.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
I've read a couple of articles and actually the title is more than clickbait.
No decision made yet, at all.
I remeber people saying K2 was going to win easy both in Norway and Lithuania but koreans ended up losing both.
Lets see, both Leopard and K2 have their pros and cons...
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
ex-Italian Army Leopard 1a5 stored in Gorizia, near Trieste.
96 tanks were refurbished and put into storage from the Villesse It-Army depot and were sold to RUAG, who left them in Italy.
RUAG only recently denied permission to send these tanks to Ukraine, so they will remain in Italy stored.
Image from RSI.
RUAG: le prime immagini dei Leopard 1 in Italia - RSI Radiotelevisione svizzera
Parcheggiati all’aperto e coperti da teli verdi in un deposito vicino a Gorizia. Pubblichiamo per la prima volta foto e video dei carri armati, ottenuti dalla cellula inchieste della RSI
www.rsi.ch
The Abrams - and K2 - procurement in Poland is financed primarily through massive loans from the respective governments (in South Korea covering 70% of the procurement volume!). The rest is partially financed through the Armed Forces Support Fund, an instrument created by PiS to remove parliamentary oversight over expenditures - which took out loans from banks primarily in the USA.
FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
US State Department has approved the sale of about a brigades worth of Stryker vehicles along with assorted tactical support vehicles.
I suspect regular exposure to the U.S. 2nd Cav Rgt helped in their vehicle choice.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Rumors from Europe regarding the new european tank.
Italy, Germany, Spain, Sweden and Belgium ( plus other smaller EU-states ) are going to present an offer to the EU-Commission to get funds from the 2023 EDF-call to start the development of the new Tank family.
www.rid.it
This is an ultimatum to France, notoriously jealous of their military industries, that was apparently complaining about some shares in the program.
Let's see what will happen in the next months.
Will France join the program, as predicted, in the end?
Also... France doesn't really own a national ground-focused industry anymore.
Nexter was finally absorbed by the new KNDS earlier this year...
www.knds.com
Italy, Germany, Spain, Sweden and Belgium ( plus other smaller EU-states ) are going to present an offer to the EU-Commission to get funds from the 2023 EDF-call to start the development of the new Tank family.
RID Rivista Italiana Difesa - EDF - Main Battle Tank Platform System: ecco l’offerta di Italia, Germania e Spagna
EDF - Main Battle Tank Platform System: ecco l’offerta di Italia, Germania e Spagna
www.rid.it
This is an ultimatum to France, notoriously jealous of their military industries, that was apparently complaining about some shares in the program.
Let's see what will happen in the next months.
Will France join the program, as predicted, in the end?
Also... France doesn't really own a national ground-focused industry anymore.
Nexter was finally absorbed by the new KNDS earlier this year...
Home | KNDS Group
KNDS is the result of the association of Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Nexter, two of the leading European manufacturers of military land systems based in Germany and France.
Last edited by a moderator:
Not the countries, but instead a possible joint venture of companies from those countries.
And it's not so much an offer, it's a response to a call for proposals from EDF. Specifically to this call, EU-2023-DA-GROUND-MBT that has been open since April 2023:
EU Funding & Tenders Portal
The Funding and Tenders Portal is the single entry point (the Single Electronic Data Interchange Area) for applicants, contractors and experts in funding programmes and procurements managed by the European Commission.
The budget for the design study this call is for is 20 million Euro.
For some scale of this, EDF currently has 16 similar open calls for proposals with an overall budget of around 700 million Euro.
I am btw not quite sure whether the list cof companies named in the article is intended to submit a joint proposal, or whether that's simply companies that compete with each other for it in a number of international joint ventures.
The politically interesting part about the EDF call/response is that the study must be supported by at least two EU member countries with the intention to procure based on it.
KNDS is simply a holding company (based in the Netherlands) that is co-owned equally by the former shareholders of Wegmann & Co GmbH KG and Giat Industries (i.e. 50% the Bode family and 50% the French state), and that itself owns both KMW and Nexter as separate business entities. Additionally the French state holds a single "golden share" of Nexter, i.e. at 50%+1 retains a controlling share of it.
KNDS decided in June this year to overhaul its brand strategy though, and is planning to have both of its operational business entities appear under a single KNDS brand name in the future.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
It lives!
www.ft.com
France and Germany's defence ministers, Lecornu and Pistorius, announced a new and faster ( but I wouldn't bee to confident on that ) roadmap on the development of the new European tank, MGCS.
www.politico.eu
Most importantly, they announced that the program " will be managed so that every EU country interested can join and participate in the program, which will have a very important impact on European sovereign defence".
According to reports and rumours, but also to official statements from their Government ( the Italian one for example officially announced they were negotiating to join MGCS ), many EU countries such as Italy, Spain, Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands... are interested in joining the program.
This brings back optimism, but the program is still very far away from production or even prototype phase, so disasters can still happen.
France and Germany back ‘milestone’ development in joint tank project
MGCS plan would deliver modern combat systems as Ukraine conflict brings land warfare back to top of defence agenda
www.ft.com
France and Germany's defence ministers, Lecornu and Pistorius, announced a new and faster ( but I wouldn't bee to confident on that ) roadmap on the development of the new European tank, MGCS.
France and Germany give new push to joint next-generation battle tank
Defense ministers pledge to divide labor by year’s end but stay mum on technical details of the new main battle tank.
www.politico.eu
Most importantly, they announced that the program " will be managed so that every EU country interested can join and participate in the program, which will have a very important impact on European sovereign defence".
According to reports and rumours, but also to official statements from their Government ( the Italian one for example officially announced they were negotiating to join MGCS ), many EU countries such as Italy, Spain, Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands... are interested in joining the program.
This brings back optimism, but the program is still very far away from production or even prototype phase, so disasters can still happen.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Some very unclear and generic news.
www.defense-aerospace.com
France Releases Initial Details About French-German MGCS Future Tank Program
PARIS --- On September 22, Paris and Berlin gave new impetus to the MGCS, their Main Ground Combat System. The result of a collaboration between France...
www.defense-aerospace.com