International Army News Thread
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This is the RBR-7 from Serbia's Namenska. An optic and a grip has been added. Decades after it was first introduced the RPG-7; despite being relativity low tech; is still in widespread use and will be around for quite a long time more.
Interestingly the company still markets the M-84 [Yugoslav version of the T-72] which it sold to Kuwait prior to Saddam's invading.
@STURM Source please.
NG.
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SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Brazil selected CIO Centauro II as its new 8x8
www.edrmagazine.eu
CIO Centauro II wins the Brazilian VBC CAV MSR 8x8 bid - EDR Magazine
The Brazilian Army COLOG announced the ranking of the participants to the VBC Cav bid: the Italian CIO & the Centauro II emerged as the winner. EDR reports
www.edrmagazine.eu
@STURM Source please.
NG.
Sorry. Just noticed it.
This is Namenska's website which offers upgrades for the M-84; not newly built
M-84s. My mistake.
ppt-namenska.rs
I find the modifications they've performed on the RPG interesting. The Malaysians have just received a batch.
NG.
Sorry. Just noticed it.
This is Namenska's website which offers upgrades for the M-84; not newly built
M-84s. My mistake.
Tenk M84 AS1-Uređaji i sistemi - PPT Namenska
Nazad M-2001 (M-84AS)je najmoderniji osnovni borbeni tenk iz Srbije. Tenk je modernizovana verzija jugoslovenskog tenka M-84. Vidi karakteristike Preuzmi karakteristike Galerija Претходна Следећи Modernizacija Tenka M84 AS1 Tenk M84 AS1 Tenk M84 AS1 -Sistem za hladjenje-Sistem za podmazivanje...
ppt-namenska.rs
I find the modifications they've performed on the RPG interesting. The Malaysians have just received a batch.
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Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
Rafael announced ABM capability for its Spyder system which is currently used by 8 customers. It is unknown how they achieved that capability, whether by improving kinetic capabilities or removing computational or sensory bottlenecks, so not much else to comment on.
But this will make Rafael more competitive vs IAI whose Barak sees market success, in part thanks to its own ABM capability.
This will allow Rafael to merge, to an extent, the David's Sling and Spyder systems.
But this will make Rafael more competitive vs IAI whose Barak sees market success, in part thanks to its own ABM capability.
This will allow Rafael to merge, to an extent, the David's Sling and Spyder systems.
It was announced today that Norway is ordering 54 Leo 2A7, with an option of 18 more.
Quite a lot of noise around this process in Norway. K2 and Leo 2 were shortlisted and went through a thorough evaluation process, including testing in winter conditions in Norway. The process looked quite solid, and a decision was expected before Christmas last year. Then, all of a sudden, the Norwegian Defence Chief communicated to the government that he recommended Norway to postpone the purchase and instead buy HIMARS (or similar), more air defence, and helicopters. This came as big surprise to the government, and I think they were a bit upset, to receive this advice just before they were ready to announce a winner, after a long evaluation process.
Anyway, it seems like a compromise. We are getting only 54 not 70-80 (which was what was expected). Also, they highlighted that Leo 2 was chosen in part because it's German and in part because our neighbors Denmark, Finland and Sweden all have Leo's. I am guessing the K2 "won" the technical competition, but lost the "political" battle. (Interestingly Norway evaluated PHZ2000 against K9 and chose the K9, as did Finland Norway orders K9 howitzers in latest win for South Korean arms industry (defensenews.com))
I am disappointed by the whole thing. Norway is one of the richest countries in the world. I simply cannot understand why we cannot do like e.g., Germany and declare an extra "emergency defence budget" and go ahead and order MBTs, helicopters, and more SAMs instead of prioritizing one thing over another. The world is becoming more and more unstable, we need all of the above, and it takes a long time to get everything in place, so the sooner we start the better. Also, 54 MBTs is not a lot. We should have ordered at least 80 MBTs.
Delivery is expected to start in 2026. Price: 19.6 billion NOK (USD 1.93 billion.).
Leopard 2A7 and K2 Black Panther compete to become Norway's next MBT (janes.com)
Norge kjøper 54 Leopard-stridsvogner fra Tyskland - VG
Quite a lot of noise around this process in Norway. K2 and Leo 2 were shortlisted and went through a thorough evaluation process, including testing in winter conditions in Norway. The process looked quite solid, and a decision was expected before Christmas last year. Then, all of a sudden, the Norwegian Defence Chief communicated to the government that he recommended Norway to postpone the purchase and instead buy HIMARS (or similar), more air defence, and helicopters. This came as big surprise to the government, and I think they were a bit upset, to receive this advice just before they were ready to announce a winner, after a long evaluation process.
Anyway, it seems like a compromise. We are getting only 54 not 70-80 (which was what was expected). Also, they highlighted that Leo 2 was chosen in part because it's German and in part because our neighbors Denmark, Finland and Sweden all have Leo's. I am guessing the K2 "won" the technical competition, but lost the "political" battle. (Interestingly Norway evaluated PHZ2000 against K9 and chose the K9, as did Finland Norway orders K9 howitzers in latest win for South Korean arms industry (defensenews.com))
I am disappointed by the whole thing. Norway is one of the richest countries in the world. I simply cannot understand why we cannot do like e.g., Germany and declare an extra "emergency defence budget" and go ahead and order MBTs, helicopters, and more SAMs instead of prioritizing one thing over another. The world is becoming more and more unstable, we need all of the above, and it takes a long time to get everything in place, so the sooner we start the better. Also, 54 MBTs is not a lot. We should have ordered at least 80 MBTs.
Delivery is expected to start in 2026. Price: 19.6 billion NOK (USD 1.93 billion.).
Leopard 2A7 and K2 Black Panther compete to become Norway's next MBT (janes.com)
Norge kjøper 54 Leopard-stridsvogner fra Tyskland - VG
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
EDA launched Its biggest program ever
I'm not really into ground-forces, but as reported " CUGS aims to define, design and develop a set of functional modules which will be mounted on to existing platforms. "
Also " The final phase of the project will test full demonstrators for highly autonomous combat unmanned ground systems. "
The project Is pan-european, with 28 industries from 9 member states participating actively in the development.
More info in the link I posted...
I'm not really into ground-forces, but as reported " CUGS aims to define, design and develop a set of functional modules which will be mounted on to existing platforms. "
Also " The final phase of the project will test full demonstrators for highly autonomous combat unmanned ground systems. "
The project Is pan-european, with 28 industries from 9 member states participating actively in the development.
More info in the link I posted...
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Panus ไทยส่งมอบรถหุ้มเกราะล้อยางสะเทินน้ำสะเทินบก R600 8x8 สองคันแก่นาวิกโยธินไทย
Two prototype vehicles of domestic R600 eight-wheel drive (8x8) Amphibious Armored Personnel Carrier developed by Panus Assembly Co.,Ltd. ...
aagth1.blogspot.com
Thai amphibious 8x8 Panus R600. Develop locally although I suspect with some foreign influence. Still it is integrated locally, shown Thai quite mature automotive industry infrastructure.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
It looks like a 8×8 mixture of the Thyssen-Henschel Condor and Anoa Pindad, but still its impressive that Thailand can develop this. Specially if you look to the performance of this vehicle, which has a 600 hp Cummins diesel installed.Panus ไทยส่งมอบรถหุ้มเกราะล้อยางสะเทินน้ำสะเทินบก R600 8x8 สองคันแก่นาวิกโยธินไทย
Two prototype vehicles of domestic R600 eight-wheel drive (8x8) Amphibious Armored Personnel Carrier developed by Panus Assembly Co.,Ltd. ...
Thai amphibious 8x8 Panus R600. Develop locally although I suspect with some foreign influence. Still it is integrated locally, shown Thai quite mature automotive industry infrastructure.
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The industry might be strong but their procurement seems messy.
Their 8 x 8 APC program has been going on for almost a decade, from the original Black Widow Spider mockup in 2013, first prototype in 2015, initially via Thai defense research agency, DTI. This alone came with assistance reportedly from British (Ricardo) to Singaporean (STK).
The Panus R600 on the other hand is a private venture which was unveiled in 2019 but achieved a small sale to RTN recently.
The story with the BWS has not ended. Recently, they iterated the design further into something called the Sea Tiger to meet a requirement for the Royal Thai Marines with again, a small sale.
It feels some of these efforts are just to keep certain people/companies happy, because at the end of the day, they end up buying foreign platforms like Norinco's VN-1 in large numbers (Thailand submits acquisition request for 41 Chinese VN1 wheeled armored vehicles)
8×8 Black Widow Spider (BWS) armored wheeled vehicle
Royal Thai army takes delivery of new Black Widow Spider 8x8 armored vehicle for trial tests | Defense News July 2020 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army 2020 | Archive News year
Royal Thai Army has taken delivery of the Black Widow Spider 8×8 armored vehicle developed by Thailand’s Defence Technology Institute (DTI).
Thai marines receive amphibious APCs
Thailand's Defence Technology Institute (DTI) has delivered an unknown number of locally developed 8×8 amphibious armoured personnel carriers (AAPCs) to the Royal Thai...
www.janes.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, I'm more see how they (Thailand) build their MIC logically in better base then say other in ASEAN aside Singapore. They build their MIC first on base of what their commercial Industry strength. While Indonesia or Malaysia (as example) build on what Politically project have more selling point, and not to the relative strength of their commercial Industry.
But yeah, preference on certain companies do make much of ASEAN MIC base shaky, as they are not build much on the relative commercial base to support.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
The new European MBT, also known as MGCS ( Main Ground Combat System ) or MBTS ( Main Battle Tank System ) has entered the European Defence Fund, EDF 2023.
The EDF was launched only in 2019 and started working in 2020, with the aim to integrate EU members defence by promoting joint procurement, research, training and industrial integration.
The program is called MBTS and is under the " Land Warfare " paragraph.
According to the EDF schedule, the consortium of companies will have to answer the call for proposal within november and, after evaluation, the project will finally start.
Some details are already available in the EU DG Defis ( Direction General Defence industry and Space ) website.
defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu
The EDF was launched only in 2019 and started working in 2020, with the aim to integrate EU members defence by promoting joint procurement, research, training and industrial integration.
The program is called MBTS and is under the " Land Warfare " paragraph.
According to the EDF schedule, the consortium of companies will have to answer the call for proposal within november and, after evaluation, the project will finally start.
Some details are already available in the EU DG Defis ( Direction General Defence industry and Space ) website.
European Defence Fund (EDF) - Official Webpage of the European Commission.
European Defence Fund (EDF) - Official Webpage of the European Commission.
defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Today a new giant has born.
The german Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and the french Nexter, the two most famous european state-owned land systems manufacturers, finally complete their merge process, becoming the first pan-european company in their field.
www.edrmagazine.eu
The german Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and the french Nexter, the two most famous european state-owned land systems manufacturers, finally complete their merge process, becoming the first pan-european company in their field.
Unified brand appearance: Land Defense Systems Group KNDS gears up for the European future - EDR Magazine
Amsterdam, 14 June 2023– KNDS, the merger of the German and French land defense systems providers Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) and
www.edrmagazine.eu
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
Giving it a few years at best. Maybe 2.Today a new giant has born.
The german Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and the french Nexter, the two most famous european state-owned land systems manufacturers, finally complete their merge process, becoming the first pan-european company in their field.
Unified brand appearance: Land Defense Systems Group KNDS gears up for the European future - EDR Magazine
Amsterdam, 14 June 2023– KNDS, the merger of the German and French land defense systems providers Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) and
Their flagship project - MGCS, is being constantly derailed by Rheinmetall, and it expands to a larger Franco-German political-industrial conflict.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
I don't have the crystal ball so I can't make any prediction, but I don't agree with your opinion at all.
1) MGCS is being constantly derailed by Rheinmetall, except that it is not.
The new MGCS is one the program, as I reported here too, included in the 2023 EDF.
Your claim is probably based on the fact that you think RHM wants to sell its KF51 tank, but I guess you missed the fact that RHM was forced to recognize that KMW ( now KNDS ) is actually the intellectual owner of the Leopard 2 design, and guess what... the KF51 hull is exactly the Leo2 hull.
So I dont see why RHM should derail the MGCS.
They will likely be the main gun manufacturer and their core products are IFVs and AA systems, not MBTs.
So there is not a single reason why RHM would want to have the MGCS derailed.
2) You are talking of "larger franco-german political-industrial conflict".
Here I actually have to guess you have no idea what you are talking about.
These 2 nations just merged their 2 biggest state-owned land systems companies and are working rally tight to strenghten, integrate and federalize their defense industry and militaries.
The other big program, the FCAS/SCAF, after years of uncertainty got a big push forward from the invasion of Ukraine and work started only a couple of months ago, having a new office also opened in Spain.
Joint national office for NGWS/FCAS program gets underway - APDR
Indra’s new headquarters in Alcobendas, Spain, for the Next-Generation Weapon System/Future European Combat Air System (NGWS/FCAS) recently hosted the first meeting of the National Joint Office of the program, chaired by the Secretary of State for Defence, Amparo Valcarce.
asiapacificdefencereporter.com
You can also add that both Italy and Sweden officialy announced their will to participate in the MGCS and their full support for the program, not one but multiple times.
The only "conflict" currently undergoing in the EU is the one between the Eurozone and Hungary/Poland, who are being heavily criticized for their recent political moves ( Poland is also under infraction procedure by the EU court of justice )
My idea and the idea of every single european MPs, is that EU reliance on external nations must end.
Gradually, but it must end.
Terran
Well-Known Member
I am not going to go hard into #2I don't have the crystal ball so I can't make any prediction, but I don't agree with your opinion at all.
1) MGCS is being constantly derailed by Rheinmetall, except that it is not.
The new MGCS is one the program, as I reported here too, included in the 2023 EDF.
Your claim is probably based on the fact that you think RHM wants to sell its KF51 tank, but I guess you missed the fact that RHM was forced to recognize that KMW ( now KNDS ) is actually the intellectual owner of the Leopard 2 design, and guess what... the KF51 hull is exactly the Leo2 hull.
So I dont see why RHM should derail the MGCS.
They will likely be the main gun manufacturer and their core products are IFVs and AA systems, not MBTs.
So there is not a single reason why RHM would want to have the MGCS derailed.
2) You are talking of "larger franco-german political-industrial conflict".
Here I actually have to guess you have no idea what you are talking about.
These 2 nations just merged their 2 biggest state-owned land systems companies and are working rally tight to strenghten, integrate and federalize their defense industry and militaries.
The other big program, the FCAS/SCAF, after years of uncertainty got a big push forward from the invasion of Ukraine and work started only a couple of months ago, having a new office also opened in Spain.
Joint national office for NGWS/FCAS program gets underway - APDR
Indra’s new headquarters in Alcobendas, Spain, for the Next-Generation Weapon System/Future European Combat Air System (NGWS/FCAS) recently hosted the first meeting of the National Joint Office of the program, chaired by the Secretary of State for Defence, Amparo Valcarce.
You can also add that both Italy and Sweden officialy announced their will to participate in the MGCS and their full support for the program, not one but multiple times.
The only "conflict" currently undergoing in the EU is the one between the Eurozone and Hungary/Poland, who are being heavily criticized for their recent political moves ( Poland is also under infraction procedure by the EU court of justice )
My idea and the idea of every single european MPs, is that EU reliance on external nations must end.
Gradually, but it must end.
But just to point out that on #1 RHM has an option that could solve the KF51’s potential problems in regards to the leopard 2 hull. Develop their own.
The three hyper modern western MBT demonstrator designs that have made the rounds are Abrams X, EuroMBT and KF51 Panther. These 3 MBT demonstrators all have 4 things in common. First Automatic loaders, second Active protection systems, three UAS integrated into the vehicle and four they are built from existing hulls. Abrams X is built on an Abrams, EuroMBT from KNDS is a heavily modified Leclerc turret on a Leopard 2 hull and the RHM is a Leopard 2 hull with a new turret.
It’s not outside the realm of possibility that they may as the transition to actual product to have them develop new MBT hull’s. RHM’s Lynx KF41 already provides that they know how to build a tracked AFV suspension.
Next Leopard 2 operates with a RHM gun the L55 120mm and it’s KNDS trying to knock RHM out of that market.
Nexter part of KNDS is pushing a French 140mm for MGCS gun well Rhinemetall wants its 130mm gun. What we know of these gun systems is completely incompatible with each other. Ascalon: Nexter’s solution for the MGCS main gun - EDR Magazine
#2 As to joint ventures across Europe. It’s highly unlikely that all the members of the MCGS will buy the final product.
Particularly as the French have a habit of being French and tailoring their products to French defense needs which may be completely different from say German or Italian, Swiss ecta. The French favor light weight higher speed with the French army being more optimized for expeditionary asymmetric conflict in former French colonies. The French army is arguably the best prepared to fight of the EU but it’s style and doctrine do not necessarily translate into that of its neighbors or partners.
RHM has a wide range of products many are or were in competition with KMWS. They may have joint ventures with KMWS but they are competing.
With RHM clearly intent on keeping MBT in their business plans. Both the Kf51 and Challenger 3 prove that. They clearly hope to create a separate option that can be marketed both in and outside of Europe as both option to preempt MCGS (Offer as license or For joint ventures) or as a fall back option in the event MCGS doesn’t offer a product to the needs of a member state.
Unless all of the whole of the EU PMs and MODs decide to outsource their defense doctrine, training, acquisition, administration and industry planning to the Hotel de Brienne. It is bold claim to make blanket statements about the MGCS.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
KMW and Nexter will naturally double down on KNDS for their own sake - it pleases share holders. But there's no doubt Rheinmetall is a destabilizing actor with its plans for a KF51 production in Ukraine (I assume this is them making noise and not a real plan, but why make that kind of noise?), its push for a 130mm but inside and outside the MGCS program without clear KNDS policy, and plans for a new MBT hull of their own.
And even before we raise any issues with the MGCS concept phase, there's the fact that now a 2030-2040 IOC target may seem too far for all involved parties.
Article on Rheinmetall offering KF51, generating a minor threat and a lot of suspicious noise.
www.defensenews.com
French article about grievances with the MGCS status.
www.opex360.com
And I wanted to also link a source to Rheinmetall developing a new hull for KF51 but apparently the only link I found is to a paywalled article (Jane's).
And even before we raise any issues with the MGCS concept phase, there's the fact that now a 2030-2040 IOC target may seem too far for all involved parties.
Article on Rheinmetall offering KF51, generating a minor threat and a lot of suspicious noise.
How realistic is it for Rheinmetall to build a tank plant in Ukraine?
Company boss Armin Papperger said negotiations with Kyiv are ongoing, with a decision expected later this spring.
www.defensenews.com
French article about grievances with the MGCS status.
Un député suggère de remplacer le char Leclerc par l'EBMT de Nexter et de Krauss-Maffei Wegmann - Zone Militaire
Depuis qu'il est apparu sur le champ de bataille , voire même avant, le char a régulièrement fait l'objet de débats sur sa pertinence. Surtout depuis la
www.opex360.com
And I wanted to also link a source to Rheinmetall developing a new hull for KF51 but apparently the only link I found is to a paywalled article (Jane's).