Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

FormerDirtDart

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
Sender said:
Not RCN, but CCG again. Some quite detailed information (including fancy graphics) of the Multi-purpose Vessels, of which 16 are planned. 8200 tons, and PC4 rated.

www.seaspan.com

Multi-Purpose Vessels - Seaspan

www.seaspan.com www.seaspan.com
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Aker Artic, who seem to be the designers, released some info back in March
I will say that seems like a lot of boat
akerarctic.fi

Naval architect icebreaker | Aker Arctic

Aker Arctic has completed the hull form and contributed to the concept development for Canada’s sixteen new Multi-Purpose Vessels.
akerarctic.fi akerarctic.fi
 
IHFP

IHFP

Member
With respect to the cooperative effort from S. Korean corporation "Hyundai", "Babcock" ( Babcock and HHI Sign a Technical Cooperation Agreement for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project - Naval News ), the advent of the "CPSP" just might have a technological vector we can play with. Could the "KSS-III (Block 3) be antisedant in developing the Canadian SSP? According to ( KSS-III (Jangbogo-III) Class Attack Submarines, South Korea ) the "KSS-III" can remain submerged for quite a while without having to snort. This is important because as is explained in ( Canada urged to buy new submarines capable of operating in the Arctic ) and apparently as acknowledged by "Senate" being able to remain submerged for a significant amount of time is important to sub ice range.
Right now the "KSS-III" can remain submerged for "20 days", but Canadian security interests may require a submerged duration significantly longer than that. The prospect of sailors holding their breath, or revealing their position one of Putin's or Xi's subs is a terrible prospect.

My question is with the advent of lithium, and solid state battery technology does anyone care to speculate on the potential AIP duration of a freshly designed SSP?
 
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
IHFP said:
My question is with the advent of lithium, and solid state battery technology does anyone care to speculate on the potential AIP duration of a freshly designed SSP?
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TBH, no, because it is the same answer if one were to instead ask, "how long is a piece of string?" The answer also will not provide some of the data needed to determine the actual in-service value such a capability might have, and/or if it would be valuable to the RCN or others.

Dive duration or endurance is only part of the data needed. What transit distance is realistic during such a dive, and how long would that transit take? Can or could the sub's sensors and combat system function at full capacity during and after the transit? This are just some of the things which would need to be evaluated. If the energy density for Li and solid state batteries/energy storage starts to approach the potential energy storage of traditional hydrocarbon or petroleum-based fuels, then such a changeover might become more likely
 
IHFP

IHFP

Member
Todjaeger said:
TBH, no, because it is the same answer if one were to instead ask, "how long is a piece of string?"
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The price of string will never be long enough if your trying to take every contingency into consideration; and it looks like no amount of wishing is going to get Canada nuclear subs in the next half century.

The news points to Canada possibly getting something based on a "Hyundai" design, which points to the "KSS-III". Since submerged endurance is important for Canada it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that a Canadian SSP would have longer submerged rates than other versions of the "KSS-III". The "KSS-III" now has lithium based propulsion ( South Korea's KSS-III Batch 2 Submarine to Feature both AIP and Li-Ion Batteries - Naval News ) so I'm curious whats going to keep our subs underwater longer beyond holding our breath. Perhaps solid state, rubber bands...
 
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John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
IHFP said:
The price of string will never be long enough if your trying to take every contingency into consideration; and it looks like no amount of wishing is going to get Canada nuclear subs in the next half century.

The news points to Canada possibly getting something based on a "Hyundai" design, which points to the "KSS-III". Since submerged endurance is important for Canada it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that a Canadian SSP would have longer submerged rates than other versions of the "KSS-III". The "KSS-III" now has lithium based propulsion ( South Korea's KSS-III Batch 2 Submarine to Feature both AIP and Li-Ion Batteries - Naval News ) so I'm curious whats going to keep our subs underwater longer beyond holding our breath. Perhaps solid state, rubber bands...
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Whatever non-nuclear sub option is selected will only be suitable for coastal patrol on the Atlantic and Pacific sides of Canada. Only nuclear has the endurance for the long transit times up to the high Arctic regions and of course SSNs are the only realistic under ice performers. As you say; no realistic chance Canada would buy SSNs and no one would offer them….except for France and that’s a political sink hole.
 
IHFP

IHFP

Member
John Fedup said:
Only nuclear has the endurance for the long transit times up to the high Arctic regions and of course SSNs are the only realistic under ice performers.
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I really want to prove you wrong, and I think you would want me to do so as well! But the power generation of fissile fuel being close to endless is a tough nut to crack. I don't know whats going to surface a "T-93" short of a ruptured septic tank on chili night. Even if Canadian SSK/Ps can't hold their breath as long as an SSN it sure would be nice to be able to visit the fence at the end of the back yard. It would be a good show to both Putin and Xi that we can at least swim under our own ice, even if its a direct line. Because its our ice, and we want to keep it.

- Perhaps this is the way its already done, but I think it would be cool to have a modular battery design that would allow for newer battery technology to be implemented when its available. .
- I haven't heard much about hydrogen cells being installed in submarines civilian or military. (First Green Hydrogen Submarine Amongst Winner Of Clean Maritime Competition (fuelcellsworks.com) )
- Each block of the "KSS-II" has been longer than the last. If this is the case perhaps we can store more O2, and batteries. Whats more valuble missile launch tubes or more room for oxygen and batteries?

If there are technologies out there that bump up our W/h, then who knows maybe we can make it to the Hudsons Bay.
 
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S

shadow99

Member
IHFP said:
I really want to prove you wrong, and I think you would want me to do so as well!
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The biggest problem is not the technology that's missing, its every Prime Minister acting like deadbeat dads to the Navy. Always promising to do something, then pulling up way short on money and commitment when the time comes. These politicians see the world more like the Matrix, except everything is dollar signs to them.
While working at the CBC I came across a news film of HMCS Protectoreur just launched and the navy spokesman stating the ship is good for 20 Years!
And here we are today still waiting, and waiting and...

Hats off to all in the Navy in what they have achieved so far despite the political inference.

On another note, I've informally questioned many Canadians from Managing Directors and lower over the years, and some responses stand out such as, "The US won't let anything happen to us" or "Who would want to attack us".

The only answer that I can see is to commit at minimum 2% GNP directly to a separate Military Treasury that can't be clawed back.
Let the professionals do what they do best and keep the Politicians out where feasibly possible.

If you want to "visit the fence at the end of the back yard" you are better off having a base at the end of your yard, which could be achievable by building it in southern Canada in a large container ship/tanker, and having the advantage to move it various places in the Arctic.

Its even possible to build an enclosed floating submarine dock for the Arctic eliminating wasteful travel time back south but without the will...

I wouldn't get your hope for anything unless there is drastic change in how things are done at the top.

Rant over.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
shadow99 said:
The biggest problem is not the technology that's missing, its every Prime Minister acting like deadbeat dads to the Navy. Always promising to do something, then pulling up way short on money and commitment when the time comes. These politicians see the world more like the Matrix, except everything is dollar signs to them.
While working at the CBC I came across a news film of HMCS Protectoreur just launched and the navy spokesman stating the ship is good for 20 Years!
And here we are today still waiting, and waiting and...

Hats off to all in the Navy in what they have achieved so far despite the political inference.

On another note, I've informally questioned many Canadians from Managing Directors and lower over the years, and some responses stand out such as, "The US won't let anything happen to us" or "Who would want to attack us".

The only answer that I can see is to commit at minimum 2% GNP directly to a separate Military Treasury that can't be clawed back.
Let the professionals do what they do best and keep the Politicians out where feasibly possible.

If you want to "visit the fence at the end of the back yard" you are better off having a base at the end of your yard, which could be achievable by building it in southern Canada in a large container ship/tanker, and having the advantage to move it various places in the Arctic.

Its even possible to build an enclosed floating submarine dock for the Arctic eliminating wasteful travel time back south but without the will...

I wouldn't get your hope for anything unless there is drastic change in how things are done at the top.

Rant over.
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When it comes to Canadian governments and defence, the rants should not end. I am still waiting for some significant players to speak up against the desire of pollies to derail the P-8 in favour of a paper Bombardier proposal. Not holding my breath!
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
John Fedup said:
When it comes to Canadian governments and defence, the rants should not end. I am still waiting for some significant players to speak up against the desire of pollies to derail the P-8 in favour of a paper Bombardier proposal. Not holding my breath!
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Canadian Defence Procurement? Hmmm... got to love it, (not!).

Until Defence becomes a political priority, and there is bipartisan support, the same sorry state of affairs will continue to dog the Canadian Defence Force.

DDGs retired without replacements available for service, AORs retired without replacement (yes there is the interim MV Asterix), I can sadly see the SSKs retired without a replacement available at time of decommissioning too.

The only silver lining is the potential for us here in Oz, we may well see a whole generation of Canadian submariners transfer to the RAN.

Now I say that partly tongue in cheek, but the odds could be 50/50 that we end up with RCN sailors transferring en masse to the RAN.

Hmmm.....
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
John Newman said:
Canadian Defence Procurement? Hmmm... got to love it, (not!).

Until Defence becomes a political priority, and there is bipartisan support, the same sorry state of affairs will continue to dog the Canadian Defence Force.

DDGs retired without replacements available for service, AORs retired without replacement (yes there is the interim MV Asterix), I can sadly see the SSKs retired without a replacement available at time of decommissioning too.

The only silver lining is the potential for us here in Oz, we may well see a whole generation of Canadian submariners transfer to the RAN.

Now I say that partly tongue in cheek, but the odds could be 50/50 that we end up with RCN sailors transferring en masse to the RAN.

Hmmm.....
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Transferring en masse, surely that is impossible! A warm climate and a nation that takes national defence seriously, why would a RCN member be enticed? ……no more listening to junior’s BS would be my first guess!
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
John Fedup said:
Transferring en masse, surely that is impossible! A warm climate and a nation that takes national defence seriously, why would a RCN member be enticed? ……no more listening to junior’s BS would be my first guess!
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You know what John?

Those Canucks can still go skiing in the Australian Alps every winter too.

And believe it or not, Ice Hockey is played here in Oz too (my daughter did it years ago, and they had a Canuck coach too!!).
 
S

Sender

Active Member
Very interesting article on the requirements for Canada's future submarine fleet:

cdainstitute.ca

Canada's Future Submarine Capability | CDA Institute

This report provides a detailed analysis of the critical role of submarines within the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and their importance in the shifting international security landscape. Canada's unique geopolitical positioning, surrounded by three oceans underlines the strategic value of...
cdainstitute.ca cdainstitute.ca
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sender said:
Very interesting article on the requirements for Canada's future submarine fleet:

cdainstitute.ca

Canada's Future Submarine Capability | CDA Institute

This report provides a detailed analysis of the critical role of submarines within the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and their importance in the shifting international security landscape. Canada's unique geopolitical positioning, surrounded by three oceans underlines the strategic value of...
cdainstitute.ca cdainstitute.ca
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A good assessment on the why and how to obtain suggestions for submarines. The obstacles, politics, budget, and crewing are significant. The latter two can likely be addressed, the first, pretty much zero IMHO.
 
7

76mmGuns

Active Member
Sender said:
Interesting update on the CSC design progress, specifically in regards to the CIC layout.

www.canada.ca

Sailors shape future CSC Command Information Centre

The Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) Project recently achieved another design milestone while collaborating with the United States Navy (USN) to adopt a new Operations Room layout.
www.canada.ca www.canada.ca
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"Human factor engineer". They look after ergonomics, make sure things designed and built work? But....what do "normal" engineers do then?
 
OldTex

OldTex

Well-Known Member
76mmGuns said:
"Human factor engineer". They look after ergonomics, make sure things designed and built work? But....what do "normal" engineers do then?
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"Normal" engineers design and build things that work. "Human factor" engineers design and build things so people can use the thing that works. No having to create/breed 3 armed people or people with 2 or more sets of eyes etc.
 
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