Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The attached article indicates the Aust Army is looking at bringing back a fixed wing capability in the PC12 class. Article behind paywall. Australia seeking to rebuild army's tactical airlift capability (janes.com)
Saw a Army Pilatus Porter land and take off from a rugby pitch at Watsonia barracks back in the 80's
Impressive bit of work in such a short distance.
Can still see a space for a modern version of this style of aircraft for Army.
A good one for the top end.

Cheers S
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
From my POV the above does not appear to consider some of the key factors revolving around logistics. Namely the size/volume, and weights to be lifted, and over what distance. IIRC one of the things which had been happening, and part of the reason why the RAAF and before that the US Army was looking at the C-27J Spartan, is that very often a C-130 would be used for an airlift whilst being half empty, because of the distances the load needed to be airlifted. Now something like an A400M can certainly lift a larger sized piece of kit, as well as a heavier one, over a longer distance. However, the RAAF already has the C-17 which can lift more than an A400M. Adding A400M into the mix seems to be an expensive option, unless the ADF has an even greater need to carry outsized loads strategic distances, which the C-17 fleet cannot meet.

Unfortunately with the C-27 no longer in USAF service as an airlifter continued support and development for the platform has largely ceased and IIRC the RAAF was finding it difficult if not actually no longer viable as a battlefield airlifter. The Beech 300-series aircraft are decent as liaison aircraft as well as variants for EW and ISR roles, but due to their small size and layout, are really inappropriate for airlift. IIRC their max personnel lift is 11, or up to ~3,000kg of cargo but that cargo cannot be palletized due to cabin and door dimensions. The CH-47 medium lift helicopter is certainly capable, but has range and speed limitations. This ends up leaving the C-130 as being the go to aircraft to get personnel and kit to either where they need to go, or to logistics hubs where then other transportation options can be used.
Thanks Todjaeger

Probably just have to agree to disagree re the C-130.

Cheers S
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Saw a Army Pilatus Porter land and take off from a rugby pitch at Watsonia barracks back in the 80's
Impressive bit of work in such a short distance.
Can appreciate the Long Green at Watsonia supporting a Turbo Porter, especially without the later married patch at the end. The take-off run of around 200m was one of its best attributes (just like the STOL of the DHC-4 Caribou).
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The C-27J is in service with (in penny packets, mostly) or on order by 16 air forces & the USCG, & Leonardo has certainly not ceased support of it, & last I heard, had just introduced a significant avionics update. It 's still in production: Azerbaijan ordered some last month. In the last year a few upgrade contracts have been signed. Support ceased?
There is a reason why I included the word, "airlifter," as that is rather significant. As I understand it, the self-defence and countermeasures suites for battlefield airlifter roles are no long really being developed which is why the RAAF C-27J's are now no longer really able to operate outside of "safe" areas, i.e. in & around Australia.

The USCG has 14 ex-USAF C-27J's which have been converted in to HC-27J's for MPS, SAR and interdiction (drugs/contraband and illegal immigrant) missions, which is not the sort of environment where MANPADS are really considered a threat.

AFAIK the next largest user of C-27J aircraft is the Italian Air Force, with most being transport aircraft whilst a few are used as EW platforms, which is seeing ongoing development. However, with such a small platform user base, particularly with so many users having a handful or less, keeping the platform as a whole viable to operate in some of the same threat environments that a C-130 or A400M would be expected to face is going to be a bit of a problem. If it was not an issue, that the RAAF should not be having issues keeping their C-27J's and/or having them support forces deployed away from Australia.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The full article is coming up for that link and I don't have a Janes sub. They are looking at leasing 2 aircraft and are looking at the PC12, Cessna 208B, or the Dahar Kodiak 100/900.
That sometimes happens if the article is short enough.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
Saw a Army Pilatus Porter land and take off from a rugby pitch at Watsonia barracks back in the 80's
Impressive bit of work in such a short distance.
Can still see a space for a modern version of this style of aircraft for Army.
A good one for the top end.

Cheers S
At an airshow at Kingaroy saw a Caribou do a touch and go pass along the runway on only its nose wheel, followed by a Chinook doing the same but on only its tail wheels.

Both seemed to travel so slow it felt like a person could just keep pace walking alongside.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
There is a reason why I included the word, "airlifter," as that is rather significant. As I understand it, the self-defence and countermeasures suites for battlefield airlifter roles are no long really being developed which is why the RAAF C-27J's are now no longer really able to operate outside of "safe" areas, i.e. in & around Australia.

The USCG has 14 ex-USAF C-27J's which have been converted in to HC-27J's for MPS, SAR and interdiction (drugs/contraband and illegal immigrant) missions, which is not the sort of environment where MANPADS are really considered a threat.

AFAIK the next largest user of C-27J aircraft is the Italian Air Force, with most being transport aircraft whilst a few are used as EW platforms, which is seeing ongoing development. However, with such a small platform user base, particularly with so many users having a handful or less, keeping the platform as a whole viable to operate in some of the same threat environments that a C-130 or A400M would be expected to face is going to be a bit of a problem. If it was not an issue, that the RAAF should not be having issues keeping their C-27J's and/or having them support forces deployed away from Australia.
Leonardo announced on 7th March 2023 that the Italian Air Force had signed a contract for upgrading of the C-27J's avionics, including the self-protection suite. It's also been said that'll be applied to the EW versions, & development of an armed version has received funding.

None of that is incompatible with there not being a current, already developed, upgrade for the self-protection & countermeasures, but it appears that development is continuing, & for battlefield roles.
 

Alberto32

Member
Japan’s C-2 Cargo Jet Absolutely Dwarfs The C-1 It Was Developed From In This Viral Video - according to this article, and many others, the C2 does have air to air refuelling capability.
We need a mixed fleet similar to what we have today but feel the C130 generation should be replaced with something bigger.
Limited options.
A-400 , C-390 and Kawasaki C-2 which I don't believe has a refuelling capability for other aircraft.

The A-400 , C-390 therefore would be the preference, with the former having the benefit of greater numbers produced, for more customers, with greater capacity in load size and weight, so suggest this would be the logical way forward.
The A-400 has had it's challenges and we love to bag bag the Europeans, but to be fair it is a joint program by a number of players developed from the ground up as the logical replacement for the C-130.
It's a 21st century aircraft.
The C-130 is a compromise. It's your old reliable family car from decades ago with modern stuff added on.

The C27, Super King Air, Chinook and C17 all have a place within the ADF's logistics mix.


Cheers S


Ps - The Kawasaki C-2 is a very impressive aircraft.
Unfortunately limited numbers produced and only for JASDF.
Again no refuelling capability.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Two different things: the ability to take on fuel from other aircraft, & the ability to give fuel to other aircraft.

Stampede said "Kawasaki C-2 which I don't believe has a refuelling capability for other aircraft."

C-390 & A400M both come fitted for equipment to refuel other aircraft. You can buy plug & play kits which can be fitted quickly, so any C-390 or A400M can act as a tanker, provided the operator has some AAR kits, & I think most operators have bought some kits.

The C-2, AFAIK, doesn't have this ability. I think it would need to be modified to be a refueller. It's only equipped to receive fuel.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
If you compare the age of the RAAF KC-30A fleet to the USAF KC-135 fleet, the KC-30As are mere pups.

My understanding is the last new KC-135 was delivered in 1965, eg, they are 50++ years old, and that’s the youngest airframes too.

The RAAF KC-30A fleet are mere teenagers in comparison.

Anyway....

Back to the 2016 LNP DWP, it was suggested that an 8th and 9th KC-30A was being considered. Unfortunately by the 2020 LNP DSU, those plans were abandoned.

But, all was not lost....

The Government made it clear that the eventual replacement fleet would be expanded.

There is (was?), a project named ‘KC-30A Replacement’ planned time commence around 2033 through to the 2040s, with a budget of $17.5b to $26.2b.

That is a huge amount of dollars planned to be spent.

Anyway....

Let’s wait and see if the rumour of the Albo ALP Government adding 2 x KC-30A comes true.

For ease of commonality and support, I would imagine the RAAF would look to obtaining airframes of a similar age and configuration to the existing fleet.

The two second hand airframes (6th and 7th KC-30A), were ex Qantas (similar age and configuration of the five RAAF new built airframes), the ‘potential’ 8th and 9th might also be from that same production period too (Qantas still operate 16 x A330-200).
This is what Canada is doing in this space with their refueller fleets. part new and part second hand airframes. Canada buying four new Airbus A330 MRTT tankers
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The five used A330s bought for conversion have low hours (one positive for COVID I guess) so they will be capable of long service, a mandatory requirement for stingy Canadian governments always trying to minimize defence modernization.
I would say the Canadian Government went looking for up to nine 2nd hand late generation A-330s, knowing there are a lot of airliners parked due to the downturn caused by Covid, are able to find five, that fit the requirement of being of the current generation and are topping the numbers up with new build aircraft. The same aircraft being 10-15 years younger than the current RAAF KC-30s would create a sub fleet for the RAAF.
 

south

Well-Known Member
I would say the Canadian Government went looking for up to nine 2nd hand late generation A-330s, knowing there are a lot of airliners parked due to the downturn caused by Covid, are able to find five, that fit the requirement of being of the current generation and are topping the numbers up with new build aircraft. The same aircraft being 10-15 years younger than the current RAAF KC-30s would create a sub fleet for the RAAF.
Which isn’t necessarily the end of the world. Pretty much every large acquisition in the ADF will have sub-fleets to a degree. Surely we’d rather have more AAR, than just cross arms and go, “No thanks, it’s a different lot”.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I would say the Canadian Government went looking for up to nine 2nd hand late generation A-330s, knowing there are a lot of airliners parked due to the downturn caused by Covid, are able to find five, that fit the requirement of being of the current generation and are topping the numbers up with new build aircraft. The same aircraft being 10-15 years younger than the current RAAF KC-30s would create a sub fleet for the RAAF.
How exactly would it be a subfleet?. Commercial aircraft outside of cabin layouts and some fitted with particular bells and whistles and others bare bones are largely uniform for decades at a time. Same engines, electronics, parts etc built year after year after year. Unless you go for a an A330-neo you aren't actually going to end up with a subfleet unless the AAR fit out it self is changed (Which usually always involves upgrades to older models to bring them up to a uniform standard across various assets in all services)
 

Aardvark144

Active Member
How exactly would it be a subfleet?. Commercial aircraft outside of cabin layouts and some fitted with particular bells and whistles and others bare bones are largely uniform for decades at a time. Same engines, electronics, parts etc built year after year after year. Unless you go for a an A330-neo you aren't actually going to end up with a subfleet unless the AAR fit out it self is changed (Which usually always involves upgrades to older models to bring them up to a uniform standard across various assets in all services)
Given the differing ages over the existing RAAF KC30s, whilst outwardly identical, a younger airframe would generate a separate maintenance programme for a start, also, RAAF KC30s have GE engines whilst the most common is the RR. Given the current post Covid rebound, how many unwanted GE powered A330-200s are there available for conversion? I do not know; however, you certainly would not want 7 aircraft with GE and 2 with something else.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
How exactly would it be a subfleet?. Commercial aircraft outside of cabin layouts and some fitted with particular bells and whistles and others bare bones are largely uniform for decades at a time. Same engines, electronics, parts etc built year after year after year. Unless you go for a an A330-neo you aren't actually going to end up with a subfleet unless the AAR fit out it self is changed (Which usually always involves upgrades to older models to bring them up to a uniform standard across various assets in all services)
That's not how works, the larger and more complex a platform, the less identical they can possibly be, that's why configuration management exists. There will always be physical differences, if not tracked and understood you can't maintain, let alone operate an asset.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
That's not how works, the larger and more complex a platform, the less identical they can possibly be, that's why configuration management exists. There will always be physical differences, if not tracked and understood you can't maintain, let alone operate an asset.
Yeah I don’t see it’s as a major issue. Anything built 10 years after the first is going to have variances. I just hoped was more than an extra 2 to bring the entire fleet to the original requirement which is think was 12.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah I don’t see it’s as a major issue. Anything built 10 years after the first is going to have variances. I just hoped was more than an extra 2 to bring the entire fleet to the original requirement which is think was 12.
Look how much a car of the same make and model changes in 10 years. Aircraft are far more complex.
 
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