Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'm looking at Ukraine and the extremely challenging environment for attack and reconnaissance helicopters. Talking heads rave about the end of MBTs but I get the impression that attack helicopters are in more danger going forward.
I don't think that the helo gunships are in danger of going the way of the dodo. Yes the current Russo - Ukrainian War is showing battlefield difficulties for them, but lessons will be earned and gunship tactics and strategies will change. War is a dynamic force and you have to evolve or die.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I don't think that the helo gunships are in danger of going the way of the dodo. Yes the current Russo - Ukrainian War is showing battlefield difficulties for them, but lessons will be earned and gunship tactics and strategies will change. War is a dynamic force and you have to evolve or die.
Yup. Those aircraft aren't Apaches either...

But the weapons and sensors even for the Apache are in need of a substantial range increase, Spike NLOS is a good "start" for this...
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
Y
Yet for all the upgrades, it is still a 1950's "sized " aircraft doing logistics with 21st century expectations.
I would of thought it was well and truly time to move on to a more appropriate platform going forward.

So C130-J30; how many varieties of Army's vehicles and equipment will you be able to carry going forward.
A safe platform looking for a mission!

In my opinion !

Cheers S
What other existing option do you propose for a C130 replacement for the role of battlefield airlifter if it is no longer up to the task?
Do you envisage only C17 sized aircraft, and would have them operating out of forward bases on a regular basis, with all the risks that entails?

There is also the small load factor, using a stratigic airlifter to deliver a couple of pallets of goods may not be the most economic use of such an asset.
I understand this was one of the reasons for the C27.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
What other existing option do you propose for a C130 replacement for the role of battlefield airlifter if it is no longer up to the task?
Do you envisage only C17 sized aircraft, and would have them operating out of forward bases on a regular basis, with all the risks that entails?

There is also the small load factor, using a stratigic airlifter to deliver a couple of pallets of goods may not be the most economic use of such an asset.
I understand this was one of the reasons for the C27.
If the Boeing- Embraer partnership hadn’t fallen apart, the C390 would be an option, still could be if additional risk is acceptable for increased capability.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
The problem with the C390 as I understand it (If I am misinformed apologies) is it can't land outside of a paved runway, and requires one longer then that of the C130 for take off and landing. It has its benefits and for many nations the draw backs will be out weighed by its benefits but for the RAAF and our region shorter dirt strips are far more common so having an asset that can get to them is far better then an asset whose limitations may make a mission a no go from the start if not drastically increase its complexity.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
The number of new C130J-30 aircraft to be delivered from 2027(ish) suggests that by slight-of-hand the C-27 Spartans might disappear from the ORBAT around that time (or perhaps from 2030). The next piece of this jigsaw puzzle will be future of the avionics upgrade project for the C-27s. While having a single platform for tactical airlift makes sense for so many reasons (logistics, training, CONOPS etc) the existence of a smaller airlifter might offer some options for Defence support within the South Pacific Forum area (think an aerial version of the Guardian class patrol vessels).
So you’re thinking 12 C27s and 12 Hercs will become 20 Hercs?
 
I think I saw it in an earlier post, but if the C-27s are going to be replaced by the new C-130Js, is it possible the C-27Js act in a similar capacity to the ADV’s in terms of being to support our pacific nation neighbours and for own domestic support? The issue with the C-27s as I understand it is that they may not be survivable but are otherwise great aircraft and it’s capability redirected
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The problem with the C390 as I understand it (If I am misinformed apologies) is it can't land outside of a paved runway, and requires one longer then that of the C130 for take off and landing. It has its benefits and for many nations the draw backs will be out weighed by its benefits but for the RAAF and our region shorter dirt strips are far more common so having an asset that can get to them is far better then an asset whose limitations may make a mission a no go from the start if not drastically increase its complexity.
Not sure about about unpaved runways but likely it can in a manner similar to the C-17, doable but increased risk. As for runway length, probably higher but it is intended to compete with the C-130 so not too much more. The C-2 manages takeoffs at minimum load on 500m and it is larger than the C390. I am guessing the cost of the C-2 eliminated it as an option though.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The C-2's much heavier than C-130 or C-390. It's very similar in size & weight to the A400M. C-390 is heavier than C-130, can carry more, & has a higher, wider cargo box, but it's much closer to C-130 than to C-2 or A400M.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
What other existing option do you propose for a C130 replacement for the role of battlefield airlifter if it is no longer up to the task?
Do you envisage only C17 sized aircraft, and would have them operating out of forward bases on a regular basis, with all the risks that entails?

There is also the small load factor, using a stratigic airlifter to deliver a couple of pallets of goods may not be the most economic use of such an asset.
I understand this was one of the reasons for the C27.
We need a mixed fleet similar to what we have today but feel the C130 generation should be replaced with something bigger.
Limited options.
A-400 , C-390 and Kawasaki C-2 which I don't believe has a refuelling capability for other aircraft.

The A-400 , C-390 therefore would be the preference, with the former having the benefit of greater numbers produced, for more customers, with greater capacity in load size and weight, so suggest this would be the logical way forward.
The A-400 has had it's challenges and we love to bag bag the Europeans, but to be fair it is a joint program by a number of players developed from the ground up as the logical replacement for the C-130.
It's a 21st century aircraft.
The C-130 is a compromise. It's your old reliable family car from decades ago with modern stuff added on.

The C27, Super King Air, Chinook and C17 all have a place within the ADF's logistics mix.


Cheers S


Ps - The Kawasaki C-2 is a very impressive aircraft.
Unfortunately limited numbers produced and only for JASDF.
Again no refuelling capability.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
We need a mixed fleet similar to what we have today but feel the C130 generation should be replaced with something bigger.
Limited options.
A-400 , C-390 and Kawasaki C-2 which I don't believe has a refuelling capability for other aircraft.

The A-400 , C-390 therefore would be the preference, with the former having the benefit of greater numbers produced, for more customers, with greater capacity in load size and weight, so suggest this would be the logical way forward.
The A-400 has had it's challenges and we love to bag bag the Europeans, but to be fair it is a joint program by a number of players developed from the ground up as the logical replacement for the C-130.
It's a 21st century aircraft.
The C-130 is a compromise. It's your old reliable family car from decades ago with modern stuff added on.

The C27, Super King Air, Chinook and C17 all have a place within the ADF's logistics mix.


Cheers S


Ps - The Kawasaki C-2 is a very impressive aircraft.
Unfortunately limited numbers produced and only for JASDF.
Again no refuelling capability.
From my POV the above does not appear to consider some of the key factors revolving around logistics. Namely the size/volume, and weights to be lifted, and over what distance. IIRC one of the things which had been happening, and part of the reason why the RAAF and before that the US Army was looking at the C-27J Spartan, is that very often a C-130 would be used for an airlift whilst being half empty, because of the distances the load needed to be airlifted. Now something like an A400M can certainly lift a larger sized piece of kit, as well as a heavier one, over a longer distance. However, the RAAF already has the C-17 which can lift more than an A400M. Adding A400M into the mix seems to be an expensive option, unless the ADF has an even greater need to carry outsized loads strategic distances, which the C-17 fleet cannot meet.

Unfortunately with the C-27 no longer in USAF service as an airlifter continued support and development for the platform has largely ceased and IIRC the RAAF was finding it difficult if not actually no longer viable as a battlefield airlifter. The Beech 300-series aircraft are decent as liaison aircraft as well as variants for EW and ISR roles, but due to their small size and layout, are really inappropriate for airlift. IIRC their max personnel lift is 11, or up to ~3,000kg of cargo but that cargo cannot be palletized due to cabin and door dimensions. The CH-47 medium lift helicopter is certainly capable, but has range and speed limitations. This ends up leaving the C-130 as being the go to aircraft to get personnel and kit to either where they need to go, or to logistics hubs where then other transportation options can be used.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
From my POV the above does not appear to consider some of the key factors revolving around logistics. Namely the size/volume, and weights to be lifted, and over what distance. IIRC one of the things which had been happening, and part of the reason why the RAAF and before that the US Army was looking at the C-27J Spartan, is that very often a C-130 would be used for an airlift whilst being half empty, because of the distances the load needed to be airlifted. Now something like an A400M can certainly lift a larger sized piece of kit, as well as a heavier one, over a longer distance. However, the RAAF already has the C-17 which can lift more than an A400M. Adding A400M into the mix seems to be an expensive option, unless the ADF has an even greater need to carry outsized loads strategic distances, which the C-17 fleet cannot meet.

Unfortunately with the C-27 no longer in USAF service as an airlifter continued support and development for the platform has largely ceased and IIRC the RAAF was finding it difficult if not actually no longer viable as a battlefield airlifter. The Beech 300-series aircraft are decent as liaison aircraft as well as variants for EW and ISR roles, but due to their small size and layout, are really inappropriate for airlift. IIRC their max personnel lift is 11, or up to ~3,000kg of cargo but that cargo cannot be palletized due to cabin and door dimensions. The CH-47 medium lift helicopter is certainly capable, but has range and speed limitations. This ends up leaving the C-130 as being the go to aircraft to get personnel and kit to either where they need to go, or to logistics hubs where then other transportation options can be used.
And the RAAF hasn't requested a larger aircraft than the C-130, they have asked for more, originally twice as many.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
And the RAAF hasn't requested a larger aircraft than the C-130, they have asked for more, originally twice as many.
Not at all surprising, given that the full lift capabilities of the C-130 are often not entirely used on missions. Depending on the costs which would be involved in running two tactical airlifter fleets, there might be some justification for getting some CN-235's or C-295's to provide something smaller than the C-130. Otherwise, just keep things simple with a single type.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Throw into the mix that the ADF once operated, not only C-130 and Caribou, but also HS748 (configured as trainers but still capable of transport operations), 707, DC-3, as well as the Army fleet of Nomads and Porters.

I would suggest, that while extra C-130s are great, and that the C-27 is an orphan, that there may be a place for PC12 or PC24, as used successfully by the flying doctor throughout Australia.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Unfortunately with the C-27 no longer in USAF service as an airlifter continued support and development for the platform has largely ceased
The C-27J is in service with (in penny packets, mostly) or on order by 16 air forces & the USCG, & Leonardo has certainly not ceased support of it, & last I heard, had just introduced a significant avionics update. It 's still in production: Azerbaijan ordered some last month. In the last year a few upgrade contracts have been signed. Support ceased?
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Throw into the mix that the ADF once operated, not only C-130 and Caribou, but also HS748 (configured as trainers but still capable of transport operations), 707, DC-3, as well as the Army fleet of Nomads and Porters.

I would suggest, that while extra C-130s are great, and that the C-27 is an orphan, that there may be a place for PC12 or PC24, as used successfully by the flying doctor throughout Australia.
The attached article indicates the Aust Army is looking at bringing back a fixed wing capability in the PC12 class. Article behind paywall. Australia seeking to rebuild army's tactical airlift capability (janes.com)
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member

OldTex

Well-Known Member
The attached article indicates the Aust Army is looking at bringing back a fixed wing capability in the PC12 class. Article behind paywall. Australia seeking to rebuild army's tactical airlift capability (janes.com)
The article mentions the possible aircraft being located at an airfield in SE Qld. That would suggest Oakey, being the AAvn centre and being an Army establishment and not a RAAF airbase (Amberley).

The PC12 would be the likely choice based on speed and range, whilst the 208 Caravan would be the pick based on cargo capacity. It will depend on what the actual requirements are for the lease. Senior sirs would lean towards the PC12 while boxkickers would go for the 208 Caravan. It will be interesting to see if the lease actually goes ahead.
 
Last edited:
Top