Australian Army Discussions and Updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
An extract from tomorrow’s Australian on Land. 400 suggests that the German Boxer order will not go ahead.

The move to award the contract to one of Australia’s closest trading partners will strengthen relations with a vital player in East Asian diplomacy. But it will go down badly in Germany and wider Europe, where Australia is trying to seal a free trade deal amid stiff opposition and after the Morrison government cancelled France’s Attack-class submarines contract.

Mr Conroy rang both bidders on Wednesday night to deliver the news. A source close to Rheinmetall said its Brisbane factory would now likely close in 2026, and the promised export orders would disappear.
Well if the Germans want to do that, that is up to them. It would be stupid, reduce their capabilities in a time where there is a high intensity war in Europe. It would also damage the relationship with a useful global middle power and it would also damage Germany's reputation and hurt future military sales.

Australia will not be bullied by any powerful nation to be forced by coercion to buy shitty equipment.

EU FTA be screwed. If the EU can't see value in adding Australia as a fundamentally stable produce supplier thats fines.

It’s understood Rheinmetall was told its Lynx vehicle had a “fundamental vibration issue”. The issue was linked to the vehicles all-metal tracks, which were said to have made several testers ill.
Seems like a pretty big tangible and real issue to me.

Also, around 2026, the world disorder will be clearer. At or before that point we can order more from an already running production line locally. Or repurpose that line for another type of military equipment.

Either by 2027 the world is on the edge of global war, which should be obvious, or its not. I would expect after making 100 odd and being 2026, we might want to reconsider the fit out and equipment spec any way. The Bushmaster is a good example, initial order was tiny, now there are 1000 of them, and they are internationally recognised as being really good kit, even at the end of their production life, even though war has shifted from counter insurgency in the desert to WW2 style artillery dominated battlefields in Europe, with drones and land mines.

Given that both land400 items are in place, I think Australia will clear out its existing M113 and ASLAV stocks. We now have a timeframe and can manage the end date for these fleets. This will strengthen the need for more Boxer and Hanwha redbacks, and probably more Hanwha Huntsmans.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Albo Government press release:


First IFV delivered early 2027, last IFV delivered late 2028, one would assume the 30 AS9 SPH and 15 AS10 resupply vehicles will all be delivered by end 2028 too.

Makes you wonder if local manufacture of such small numbers (of both types), is worth the effort, worth the premium that will no doubt be paid too?

Anyway....

I wouldn’t mind betting when the next election comes around the Opposition will say they will increase the number of both types of vehicles (back to somewhere near their original plan).

Jobs, jobs, jobs! equals votes, votes, votes!
 

Mark_Evans

Member
Albo Government press release:


First IFV delivered early 2027, last IFV delivered late 2028, one would assume the 30 AS9 SPH and 15 AS10 resupply vehicles will all be delivered by end 2028 too.

Makes you wonder if local manufacture of such small numbers (of both types), is worth the effort, worth the premium that will no doubt be paid too?

Anyway....

I wouldn’t mind betting when the next election comes around the Opposition will say they will increase the number of both types of vehicles (back to somewhere near their original plan).

Jobs, jobs, jobs! equals votes, votes, votes!
Completing the delivery of 129 by 2028. We will still have the issue of old m113 vehicles needing to be phase out.
I wonder what will happen in the years before 2028. Order for more redbacks to prevent plant being shut down, some more boxers to fill out the ranks or we just limp along with the m113.
We have an election in 2025 and probably 2028 so it will be an interesting topic to follow. Especially with latest defence review saying 129 is enough for our current strategic environment.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Completing the delivery of 129 by 2028. We will still have the issue of old m113 vehicles needing to be phase out.
I wonder what will happen in the years before 2028. Order for more redbacks to prevent plant being shut down, some more boxers to fill out the ranks or we just limp along with the m113.
We have an election in 2025 and probably 2028 so it will be an interesting topic to follow. Especially with latest defence review saying 129 is enough for our current strategic environment.
Yes the next two elections, 2025 and 2028 will be interesting from a Defence point of view.

As it is at the moment, the Dutton Opposition is saying very little, as you would expect, let the other side dig it’s hole, and try and fill it in on top of them when the time is right.

Such is the nature of politics.

Unless the Albo Government screws the pooch very badly between now and the next election, I think they are pretty well guaranteed a second term in office.

Knowing this, the opposition can, and probably will, promise the earth.

Promise increased expenditure, promise orders for more locally manufactured equipment in sensitive electorates, etc, etc.

All oppositions, of whichever political persuasion do this, knowing full well they have zero chance of winning the upcoming election, but are in fact setting themselves up for the following election.

Again, I don’t see the opposition making too much noise at the moment, but it will ramp up in the lead up to the next election.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Well if the Germans want to do that, that is up to them. It would be stupid, reduce their capabilities in a time where there is a high intensity war in Europe. It would also damage the relationship with a useful global middle power and it would also damage Germany's reputation and hurt future military sales.

Australia will not be bullied by any powerful nation to be forced by coercion to buy shitty equipment.

EU FTA be screwed. If the EU can't see value in adding Australia as a fundamentally stable produce supplier thats fines.


Seems like a pretty big tangible and real issue to me.

Also, around 2026, the world disorder will be clearer. At or before that point we can order more from an already running production line locally. Or repurpose that line for another type of military equipment.

Either by 2027 the world is on the edge of global war, which should be obvious, or its not. I would expect after making 100 odd and being 2026, we might want to reconsider the fit out and equipment spec any way. The Bushmaster is a good example, initial order was tiny, now there are 1000 of them, and they are internationally recognised as being really good kit, even at the end of their production life, even though war has shifted from counter insurgency in the desert to WW2 style artillery dominated battlefields in Europe, with drones and land mines.

Given that both land400 items are in place, I think Australia will clear out its existing M113 and ASLAV stocks. We now have a timeframe and can manage the end date for these fleets. This will strengthen the need for more Boxer and Hanwha redbacks, and probably more Hanwha Huntsmans.
Yeah I suspect the claim of closing the facility in 2026 might be an ambit claim. Isn’t there 3000 Rhienmetal trucks and the boxers plus whatever else to do maintenance on? I hope the German order proceeds but to the point.

But would say I Am fairly sure we wouldn’t class the Lynx as shitty equipment.

Apparently the 2 vehicles were neck and neck and only vibration issue was with metal tracks on bitumen … which seems like an obvious outcome from a layman’s point of view. I’ll bet less vibration that an M113. They offered to use the rubber tracks on Lynx anyway but it was too late on testing to be includes. Not sure how the one peice rubber track gets repaired vs link tracks if they hit a mine for example,
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Yes the next two elections, 2025 and 2028 will be interesting from a Defence point of view.

As it is at the moment, the Dutton Opposition is saying very little, as you would expect, let the other side dig it’s hole, and try and fill it in on top of them when the time is right.

Such is the nature of politics.

Unless the Albo Government screws the pooch very badly between now and the next election, I think they are pretty well guaranteed a second term in office.

Knowing this, the opposition can, and probably will, promise the earth.

Promise increased expenditure, promise orders for more locally manufactured equipment in sensitive electorates, etc, etc.

All oppositions, of whichever political persuasion do this, knowing full well they have zero chance of winning the upcoming election, but are in fact setting themselves up for the following election.

Again, I don’t see the opposition making too much noise at the moment, but it will ramp up in the lead up to the next election.
Mind you Albo can also offer extra orders
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Mind you Albo can also offer extra orders
When ASLAZ and M113 vehicles are retired , I find it difficult to believe our future fleet of armour will be limited to 129 Rednecks and 211 boxers. plus small numbers of SPGs and MBTs.
Yes politics will come to play in the years ahead, but so does Army's need for firepower and protection.

The above is a good balanced small force that will give us a useful small but limited expeditionary capability.

As has been shown recently in europe,vehicle numbers matter when fighting in a high intensity conflict.

Confident extra vehicle orders will be forthcoming


Cheers S
 

AndyinOz

Member
Mind you Albo can also offer extra orders
In all honesty I suspect that is what will happen. Moving to a somewhat piecemeal approach like say is done in the US with their air force procurement as an example off the top of my head. Or even as we did with the Bushmasters. Stretching out the expenditure for a program over various budgetary cycles allows for things like once in 15 year budget surpluses. Knowing that additional orders will be made down the track but they for now do not appear on the books as expenditure. You also have the added political bonus of making an announcement that you are 'buying an additional squadron of this, or battalion's worth of that' which you can justify by saying the security environment is continuing to degrade.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Of course he can.

But he’s just got through telling us (via the DSR), we don’t need 450, we only need 129, less than one third of what was originally proposed.

That would be a pretty big back flip to perform in such a short space of time, yes?

Make him look a bit stupid actually.
Have to remember what the DSR said with respect to the force in being, enhanced objective force and objective future force.

129 can be spun easily to support the force in being / enhanced objective force and additional orders could be announced under the intended biennial “National Strategy” documents that will follow on from DSR to support either the enhanced objective force or objective future force.

A walk in the park for a spin doctor.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Of course he can.

But he’s just got through telling us (via the DSR), we don’t need 450, we only need 129, less than one third of what was originally proposed.

That would be a pretty big back flip to perform in such a short space of time, yes?

Make him look a bit stupid actually.
Fair point but I suspect that’s what will happen…
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah I suspect the claim of closing the facility in 2026 might be an ambit claim. Isn’t there 3000 Rhienmetal trucks and the boxers plus whatever else to do maintenance on? I hope the German order proceeds but to the point.
Germany has committed to a huge defence spend. However, if they don't spend it fast enough inflation will erode it and starting new big defence projects is harder in Germany than it is even for Australia. They need to make buys like boxers from Australia. In fact, they should make more of those type of buys. The Germans aren't the French, I feel that the Germans will go through with buying the boxers.

The main thing is that this get production started and through to the next election cycle. Yes we need to make more a ordered in the future, but that is a future problem at this point.

For all we know Albo has done a deal with the Germans and the Koreans, and we will build stuff for the Ukrainians and the Germans and Koreans will pay. Or we are selling onto Poland. The current situation is quite chaotic and perhaps not everything is public..

Who knows what the future holds. A decision is made, 100+ vehicles are signed for, production is starting. Yay.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Is there any chance they might cancel the HIMARS and start building Chunmoo in Geelong? Chunmoo will be able to fire PRSM apparently
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Is there any chance they might cancel the HIMARS and start building Chunmoo in Geelong? Chunmoo will be able to fire PRSM apparently
You would think they would lean towards Rheinmetall gmars over Hanwhas Chunmoo.
commonality with the HX trucks already in the fleet vs maybe cheaper per unit cost?
 

Mark_Evans

Member
N
Quick Question- Why does Aus prefer their IFV to have the 30mm cannon over the Korean version's 40mm?
Not sure how accurate this is but supposedly the 30 mm cannon of the Redback can be easily upgraded to a 40 mm cannon - only three parts need to be replaced and no modifications to the turret are required. Military today article.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Quick Question- Why does Aus prefer their IFV to have the 30mm cannon over the Korean version's 40mm?
I feel 40mm is the preferred choice for both Army and Navy going forward.
Range and impact much better than the 30mm to meet the broad range of threats across the battle space.

Question.

Do Boxer and Redback each have different 30mm cannons and ammunition supply?

Cheers S
 
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