Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would hope the OCV was never intended to be an up armed OPV, in fact the impression I got at the time the OCV was postulated, was it would basically be a slower, more sensible, less compromised LCS.

Drop the structural and propulsion compromises of the 40kt speed the LCS was intended to have, and you basically have a sloop. This is a type of ship the US has never really had or done well, but formed a critical element of the RN and RAN, in war and peace for decades.

The thing is, sloops are still warships, they were built in naval yards to naval standards for shock and survivability. They in many cases had the same systems (including armament, less torpedos) as destryors, but were longer ranged and also did mine sweeping.

They were more versatile than corvettes, frigates and Destroyer Escorts (DEs as the US refered to their frigate equivalents), which were often built in commercial yards, with high degrees of prefabrication elsewhere. Frigates and DEs tended to be single role vessels, specialising in one mission over others, with different variants, while sloops did it all.

Basically sloops were versatile, general purpose warships that could do almost everything a destroyer could, as well as some things they couldn't, and somethings better, i.e. ASW. They could even, due to their range, backfill some cruiser roles.

If you weren't planning massed torpedo attacks, sloops were a better option for a navy like the RAN. A general purpose back up for the heavy and light cruisers.

This is not by any means an OPV, which if you look at it, was a reluctant acknowledgement that the Armidale class PBs were not fit for purpose. OPVs, even with weapons tacked on, are not warships. They are the naval equivalent of mounting weapons on a Hilux and calling it a tank.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Absolutely agree that trying to turn the Arafura into a frontline warship is a terrible idea. We should have never bought them in the first place. The Turnbull government was well aware of Australia's worsening strategic situation and yet ordered a vessel they knew could never hope to operate in a combat environment. Actually the blame can go back further than that when the Gillard government decided to delay the OCV in favour of more patrol vessels.

I just have a feeling though that rather than scrap the whole project and start again they will try and do the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately any other approach would probably result in further delays.

There is very little detail on the proposed OCV other than it was a combatant so definitely not a patrol vessel. Its displacement was to be in the 2000 ton range. It was to be a multi-mission platform. The OCV would have been sufficiently well armed to allow it to support or substitute major combatants in some circumstances. It would have been able to accompany and provide support to task groups major units. We are certainly not talking OPVs here.


Perhaps the new emphasis on littorial operations will lead to a more capable ship being acquired. Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be to select a new class of warship to replace the navy's MCM fleet rather than the current plan to replace them with more Arafuras.

Just thinking, it has been 14 years since new frigates, submarines and OCVs were recommended in the Rudd Defence White Paper and not a single ship has yet been commissioned.
 
Last edited:

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Adding a new missile system, procurement, training and supply chain just for Arafura would be an incredibly daft move - at least in my opinion.
I could understand a medium 57 / 76mm sized gun being an orphan for a tier two vessel.
Anything else, gun or missile should be either in current inventory or alternatively viewed as a future system for across the whole fleet.


Cheers S
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I would hope the OCV was never intended to be an up armed OPV, in fact the impression I got at the time the OCV was postulated, was it would basically be a slower, more sensible, less compromised LCS.

Drop the structural and propulsion compromises of the 40kt speed the LCS was intended to have, and you basically have a sloop. This is a type of ship the US has never really had or done well, but formed a critical element of the RN and RAN, in war and peace for decades.

The thing is, sloops are still warships, they were built in naval yards to naval standards for shock and survivability. They in many cases had the same systems (including armament, less torpedos) as destryors, but were longer ranged and also did mine sweeping.

They were more versatile than corvettes, frigates and Destroyer Escorts (DEs as the US refered to their frigate equivalents), which were often built in commercial yards, with high degrees of prefabrication elsewhere. Frigates and DEs tended to be single role vessels, specialising in one mission over others, with different variants, while sloops did it all.

Basically sloops were versatile, general purpose warships that could do almost everything a destroyer could, as well as some things they couldn't, and somethings better, i.e. ASW. They could even, due to their range, backfill some cruiser roles.

If you weren't planning massed torpedo attacks, sloops were a better option for a navy like the RAN. A general purpose back up for the heavy and light cruisers.

This is not by any means an OPV, which if you look at it, was a reluctant acknowledgement that the Armidale class PBs were not fit for purpose. OPVs, even with weapons tacked on, are not warships. They are the naval equivalent of mounting weapons on a Hilux and calling it a tank.
It will be very interesting as to how many of the Arafura Class are built.
OPV, MCM , Survey or something else.
Will it be 7 or 12 or 20.

It's a complete bag or mystery.

A strange state of affairs.


Cheers S
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Stingray

thanks very much for the clarification of the Navantia class F-100/105/110 development. As long as any “Batch 2” Hobart class build was to the upgraded F-110 standard that seems a viable candidate for a “tier 1” warship for the RAN.

I am not wishing to imply that I think the Navantia offer should win the decision. It will depend on many factors. But I do think the RAN needs more “tier 1” warships. Therefore while switching the Arafura build to a “tier 2” warship makes sense in terms of the DSR, we should not lose sight of the need to make up for lost time building up the “tier 1“ hull numbers.

Given your comments on crew numbers I can understand why the Constellation class is a less viable alternative.
The reason for the growth in the Hunter relates to fitting of AEGIS Baseline 9 and the SAAB 9LV tactical interface as well as retaining its formidible ASW capability (and to provide some grwoth margin).

Both the Hobart and F110 are smaller than the Hunter. The DDG (Hobart Class) will undergo a very challenging upgrade to fit AEGIS baseline 9 and the SAAB 9LV tactical interface. These ships a challenged by having next to no growth margin. It appears likely compromises will be made to fit these systems (i.e will it be practical to upgrade the generations capacity to provide sufficient redundancy).

The FREMM is in a similar size range. I am at a loss to understand why we would rush off and agree to building DDG which has no growth capacity and will struggle to take the systems being considered for the DDG upgrade.

Given its size T31 hull could certainly take the sensor and combat system fitted to the ANZAC. It would also appear to be able to carry more cells (24 to 36 has been mooted I think) making it a very good GP frigate (basically your Tier 2) but it would lack the ASW capability of the Hunter and I doubt it could take the AEGIS Baseline 9/SAAB 9LV combination. For a GP frigate the SAAB 9LV may be sufficient.

Noting we have no idea of the terms of reference for the review of SDR for ship types we have no idea what the desired outcome is or what a 'smaller' vessel means in reality and what is a Corverre. Does a 5700 tonne Type 31 qualfiy for these categories. It would appear extreamly improbable that you would fit the systems and sensors fitted in the upgrade ANZAC, and additional Mk41 cells, in something less than 4000 tonnes (that being about the displacment of the modified ANZAC with just 8 cells).

Finally tooling up and setting up supply lines for a new vessel is not an overnight task. it will take a lot of time (noting the reivew of the review needs to be finished, considered, responded to and then a design selected before any stuff gets ordered). Youa re looking a many years.

Basically the best option IMHO is to build the Hunter until another design completed, long lead itesm are order and the yard is ready to lay the keel.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What is the difference between DDs, FFs and Corvettes? Depends upon who you ask and what navy you are in. A navy could put a 50 cal on a rowboat and call it a FAC. The video below attempts to explain the situation. People should watch it before going on trying to define what is what; there are no longer any definite definitions.

 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The growth in the Hunter is more probably related to the fitting of the new mast design to accomodate the CEA radars. While both 9LV and Baseline 9 might add a bit of weight according the released illustrations the mast is a significant structure.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would hope the OCV was never intended to be an up armed OPV, in fact the impression I got at the time the OCV was postulated, was it would basically be a slower, more sensible, less compromised LCS.
There was some talk about modules, and austal had some ideas made out of aluminium.

The module thing I think still has merit for a tier 2 type vessel, that can't do every role all at once, but can embark some capability when needed.

The whole OPV-Patrol-Corvette-light Frigate is pretty much a blurry continuum these days. Take the Gowind thing, its as blurry as all hell, it can be a 1000t OPV, or a 3,100t frigate. The Italian Thaon di Revel class is a 4800t -6000t OPV but can sometimes embark up to ~150, operate two helos, 5" + 76mm, land attack/antiship, aster 30, 6 torpedo's and 2 xsh90.. They are offering these to greece with two dedicated corvettes. But we are talking about 21 days endurance here. Which is fine for Greece, its not like they have to go far to find Turkey. But in the Australian context we wouldn't even get out of WA EEZ.

Again Im not sure if our weakness is air defence. Im not sure we are looking at small air defence ships. It might be a flexible role we want to sometimes embark, but Im not sure its our focus.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
What is the difference between DDs, FFs and Corvettes? Depends upon who you ask and what navy you are in. A navy could put a 50 cal on a rowboat and call it a FAC. The video below attempts to explain the situation. People should watch it before going on trying to define what is what; there are no longer any definite definitions.

Martadinata-class frigate - Wikipedia
About the smallest warships built in the last 10 years that are called Frigates, are the Indonesian Navies Damen 10514, Martadinata class. at 2900t calling both them and the Hunter class, Frigates would be the equivalent of calling both the RANs WW2 Leander class and the RNs Renown class, Battlecruisers, the difference in size and capabilities are similar.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The growth in the Hunter is more probably related to the fitting of the new mast design to accomodate the CEA radars. While both 9LV and Baseline 9 might add a bit of weight according the released illustrations the mast is a significant structure.
Sorry my bad, I certainly intended to include the radar itself was part of the package for Hunters but was in a typing flurry. I understand the radar is also a bit of a power hog which has implications for generating capacity.

The fact that packing AEGIS and SAAB 9LV (along with associated upgrades requried by the moderisation) is a challenge for the Hobart remains an issue in respect of ship size and growth.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
IMHO from an outsider (and probably wrong ) point of view your main problem is manning. Specially the middle officers.

Because after seeing your programs like the Canadians ones, you are more than willing to spend tons of cash, so getting ships shouldn't be a problem.

What I don't understand is why with your way higher salaries (with still a welfare state of European/Developed level) you cannot tap into the man-pool of other countries.

I bet if you did the right program you could get tons of middle officers from navies all around the world. Yes probably going towards their retirement but they could easily buy you a decade of time to train yours.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
IMHO from an outsider (and probably wrong ) point of view your main problem is manning. Specially the middle officers.

Because after seeing your programs like the Canadians ones, you are more than willing to spend tons of cash, so getting ships shouldn't be a problem.

What I don't understand is why with your way higher salaries (with still a welfare state of European/Developed level) you cannot tap into the man-pool of other countries.

I bet if you did the right program you could get tons of middle officers from navies all around the world. Yes probably going towards their retirement but they could easily buy you a decade of time to train yours.
There are always barriers to transferring to another countries Defence Force, most countries you need to be accepted for citizenship, need to pass security checks, especially if your job demands high level security clearance. To join the ADF, you will need to be fluent in English, both spoken and written. While our pay may be good compared to many Defence Forces around the world, it does not stack up that well compared to equivalent civilian jobs here in Australia.
 

Meriv

New Member
But still better than an European military salary. And I think you can trust an European/Japanese/Korean/Chilean for example

And the European ones probably already speaks English if they reached that technical level.

Yes I imagine you need citizenship and X amount of requisites. But IMHO the clock is ticking in the Pacific and you need to risk it and create a corridor "ad hoc" for the crew.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’m not sure that what the RN is doing to T31 or T45, the Italians are doing in general, or the Japanese are doing as a successor to Mogami has much, if anything, to do with the RAN. Any chance of discussing issues to do with those ships on the appropriate threads?
 
Last edited:

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
The following link is to the United States Naval Institute (USNI), webpage containing the US Congressional Research Service report on the Virginia class SSN Procurement: Background and Issues for Congress, dated 19 May 2023.

Report on Virginia-class Attack Submarine Program - USNI News

The proposed sale of between three to five Virginia class SSNs to Australia commences on Page 14.
Navy Virginia (SSN-774) Class Attack Submarine Procurement: Background and Issues for Congress - Dated 22 May 2023
Feel free to identify whatever changes might have been made over three days...LOL
For those curious here is a listing of all previous versions of that report (68 in total)
The term "AUKUS" seems to first appear in version 230, but only in footnotes
The first appearance of the section addressing AUKUS is version 235 (May 19, 2023)
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The following link is to the United States Naval Institute (USNI), webpage containing the US Congressional Research Service report on the Virginia class SSN Procurement: Background and Issues for Congress, dated 19 May 2023.

Report on Virginia-class Attack Submarine Program - USNI News

The proposed sale of between three to five Virginia class SSNs to Australia commences on Page 14.
There are plans to build between 3 to 5 extra Virginias from 2030 through to 2039 to cover the sale of 3 to 5 submarines to Australia. Australia will be investing a substancial amount of money in order that US submarine builders will be able to increase production. I notice that Australia getting new build submarines has not been ruled out.

When you consider that the US submarine production rate will be increased, three to five additional Australian operated Virginias will be deployed in our region, extra naval facilities will be built for these vessels and those of our allies, and all of that at Australia's expense, then this deal is really win-win for the US.
 
Last edited:
Top