The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Vivendi · Apr 4, 2023

Ananda said:
I call it terrorism, but you are clearly want this to be call justified killing. Seems you are the one who have agenda from beginning to discounted anything that happen to other side on anything then potential terrorism act.

Incorrect -- I am not calling this "justified killing". Where did I do that? Please stop inventing things.

Unlike you I will stick to the FBI definition of terrorists that you yourself linked to, and the implication of this is that I cannot draw a conclusion on whether this was a terrorist act or not, until further information becomes available. I may conclude it was an act of terrorism; I may not. The evidence in combination with the definition of terrorism will determine the conclusion, not anybody's agenda, in spite of your best efforts to present it that way.

You are clearly not sticking to the definitions of terrorist that you yourself linked to, which is rather odd. Perhaps you don't understand the definitions? Think about the large number of mass shootings in the US. In some of them, a large number of people are getting killed, often in public places. In each case the FBI investigates whether it was "terrorism" or not. In many cases these tragic events are not categorized as terrorist acts even if they fulfil the criteria you seem to focus on: that it happened in a public place with "civilians" (which may or may not be the case in this case, see postings from Swerve and others on that). This link provides a list of some tragic mass shootings that the FBI concluded were not terrorism: 1. What Terrorism Is, and Is Not | ATrain Education (atrainceu.com)

Anyway I will stop this here. Unlike Ngatimozart and Feanor, who had a reasonable discussion including the definition of terrorism and linking that to their own arguments in a logical manner, you just link to some (random?) pages and do not seem to properly connect those definitions to your own arguments, which makes discussion with you not very productive. In addition you make false accusations against me, which also is not conducive to a productive discussion.

Ananda · Apr 4, 2023

The guy who was killed was not a journalist. He was a blogger. Some of the statements he made before he was killed:

You don't to call the killing terorism, yet complain if someone else call this terorism. So what kind of killing that you implied? So I don't inventing things, just speak out what you implied.

Vivendi said:
you just link to some (random?) pages and do not seem to properly connect those definitions to your own arguments, which makes discussion with you not very productive

Well same thing with you. You don't want to have arguments, you just want to shown your Western condensending attitude. I already see that for several previous arguments already. That's why I never put serious efforts to argue with you, cause it is useless anyway. So stop trying to shown trying to have productive arguments. You never are try doing that, so why must I bother to have productive ones with you.

Vivendi · Apr 4, 2023

Ananda said:
Well same thing with you. You don't want to have arguments, you just want to shown your Western condensending attitude. I already see that for several previous arguments already. That's why I never put serious efforts to argue with you, cause it is useless anyway. So stop trying to shown trying to have productive arguments. You never are try doing that, so why must I bother to have productive ones with you.

So you admit that you are not bothering to have "productive discussions" with me? This is outrageous and borderline trolling!

I see you also accuse me of never trying to present "productive arguments". Well I am sorry I don't meet you high standards. I will try to improve but I guess I simply cannot meet your standards then.

Before the Mods intervene I suggest we make an agreement: I will stop responding to your posts (that you yourself admit are not a serious attempt at having a discussion) and then you stop responding to my posts, that you clearly find to be substandard and probably not worthy of your time. If you don't respond to this post I take that as an acceptance of the agreement.

Ananda · Apr 4, 2023

Vivendi said:
This is outrageous and borderline trolling!

Trolling?? You are the ones that debate terorism first with me (post #7.106 to mine #7.105). I used to try to have productive discussion with you some time ago, but it is no point with your continues condescending attitude.

Vivendi said:
then you stop responding to my posts,

The last time I response to any of your post when you call Asian, African nations to wake up on Russia. I believe even other non western members in here comment negatively to your post. That's a real condescending Western attitude to non western. Asside for that I'm not bothering to respond to any for your post for some time.

I will only response to any of your posts in future if you make another condescending implicitly to non western especially Asian. Asside for that I never bothered with your posts anyway.

swerve · Apr 4, 2023

Ananda said:
Doesn't mean that particular cafe now is not consider as public area, as some in here seems eager to justify. Doing private function (if this is really happening) on a Cafe is usual business to do, and does not suddenly make a cafe ceased to be a public place.

Attacking someone in public place with explosive device, is terrorism act. US targeted killing using missile from drones practise is to wait until the target leave public space to reduce collateral damage (just as example on open policy in targeted killing). Doing this purposely in public space knowing well and disregarding of potential collateral damage, is act of terrorism no matter whose doing it.

A public space is a space open to the public. A space which is sometimes open to the public, but restricts access at other times, is not public while access is restricted. For example, I've known private houses of historical interest be open to the public on special occasions. That does not make them public spaces the other 99.9% of the time.

And stop talking to me as if I agree with this bombing! I don't - & I've said so. Read what I wrote.

Ananda · Apr 4, 2023

swerve said:
A space which is sometimes open to the public, but restricts access at other times, is not public while access is restricted.

Let's agree to disagree. Seems you and I have different understanding on what constitutes as public. Private parties can still be considered as public place.

swerve said:
stop talking to me as if I agree with this bombing! I don't - & I've said so. Read what I wrote.

Where do I say that you agree with this bombing?

I say that attacking someone in public place with an explosive disregarding collateral damages from others is act of terorism. Feel free to disagree on that, but I never say you are agree on this bombing.

seaspear · Apr 4, 2023

Attacking someone in a public space with disregard for collateral casualties is often called an act of war , a question is can be is this person a legitimate target ,the setting is where often Russian state cyber users are alleged to gather ,the site is alleged to be owned by the owner of the Wagner group ,the person killed was an intelligence officer conducting a gathering of individuals who may have views similar to his that this person organised a propaganda blog that displayed torture of prisoners by Wagner soldiers as entertainment to his viewers does not inspire sympathy for his demise

Vivendi · Apr 4, 2023

A great thread by Michael Kofman:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1643232900685463554

The Russian offensive in the Donbas has not yet ended, but it has weakened in pace of operations and intensity. Russian forces are probably preparing to shift to a defensive posture in anticipation of a Ukrainian offensive.

UA is building out a sizable additional force: three corps, consisting of six maneuver brigades, and supporting elements. However questions remain about how complete these will be and the level of training. Kofman sees potential capability gaps in breaching equipment, mine clearing, combat engineering, bridging, support, and core items like communication, night vision, ISR.

Short term Russia most likely has the manpower and reserves to mount a stubborn defense. However long term Russia has manpower problems and also need to start rationing ammunition.

Most likely we will see some limited successes for Ukraine during the spring/summer, but we should not expect any major wins for Ukraine, due to the large losses they have experienced (including some of their most experienced and well trained soldiers), and several limitations on the equipment side.

Feanor · Apr 4, 2023

After a pause, Russian forces have resumed the push in and around Artemovsk/Bakhmut. In the city itself they've taken the city administration building, and a number of other landmarks in the center, and have cleared out most of the AZOM industrial area. West of the town Russian forces are assaulting Bogdanovka from the north-east. Presumably this is intended to provide a better springboard to cutting the road out of Khromovo. The roads in and out of Artemovsk/Bakhmut remain under Russia fire, and destroyed Ukrainian vehicles are piling up in the area, but Ukrainian forces are still managing to keep the roads open. There's no word of the reinforcement that we saw arriving in Konstantinovka and Chasov Yar last week. They might be committed to the current fighting around Bogdanovka, Krasnoe, and Khromovo. That would be bad for Ukraine. They might still be a Damocles' sword hanging over Russian salients. That would be worse for Russia. It's not obvious how this ends with the Ukrainian offensive now in sight and Artemovsk/Bakhmut frequently referred to as a possible location. Of course This could be a diversion intended to tie down Russia's more competent infantry in the area, while Ukraine's real blow lands elsewhere. The Orekhov area in Zaporozhye seems a likely candidate though we can't rule out others.

Colonelcassad

❗️ Битва за Бахмут Обстановка к исходу 4 апреля 2023 года В Бахмуте штурмовые отряды ЧВК «Вагнер» полностью освободили территории промышленного комплекса АЗОМ и ж/д станцию «Бахмут-1» и остальные кварталы восточнее улицы Мира. ▪️«Вагнеровцы» закрепились по улице Александра Сибирцева, заняв...

t.me

http://rybar.ru/piwigo/upload/2023/04/04/20230404210128-bfe2224b.jpg

Colonelcassad

ЧВК "Вагнер" заняли серую зону перед н.п. Богдановка и приблизились уже вплотную к данному н.п.

t.me

seaspear · Apr 5, 2023

Picture of the Russian "journalist" killed in the explosion he has been identified as a serving intelligence officer

@seaspear Wheres the link to the source? You have been on here long enough to know the rules.

Ngatimozart.

ngatimozart · Apr 5, 2023

Apparently the Ukrainians have 5 brigades of artillery near Bakhmut and are undertaking counter battery fire. The Russians had moved their arty closer to Bakhmut itself to support the ground fighting there. This is because of their arty lack of accuracy. It also has placed them well and truly in the range of the Ukrainian arty which is predominantly western arty systems. The Russians have taken the whole of the river side of the main street within Bakhmut after the Ukrainians withdrew because of Russian crossfire causing the position to become untenable.

The Ukrainians have been mining multistory buildings as they retreat and not exploding them until Russian forces enter them. This gives the Russians an unpleasant surprise and is now causing them to be somewhat wary of captured multistory buildings. They left such a nasty present in Bakhmut's town hall and caught a reasonable number of Russians. Multistory buildings are important in Bakhmut, as in any urban fighting, because they offer commanding views of the battle. That's why ATGM, machine guns, and snipers love them. The Russians answer has been to use arty to destroy the buildings, however a side effect of such an approach leaves lots of rubble which is ideal from a defenders POV.

This video is complied by a Ukrainian source, so take that into account. However hs has confirmed at various times some of the reports that @Feanor has posted.

Feanor · Apr 5, 2023

seaspear said:
View attachment 50401
Picture of the Russian "journalist" killed in the explosion he has been identified as a serving intelligence officer

@seaspear Wheres the link to the source? You have been on here long enough to know the rules.

Ngatimozart.

It's impossible to be 100% but it looks like him. Note, he served within DNR formations, so the idea of him in a Russian "tsifra" camo with a VSS isn't surprising. He routinely wore military kit during his frontline visits in the current war, and it certainly wouldn't be unlike him to pose with a weapon. I couldn't tell you where or when that photo is from but it looks authentic and doesn't contradict anything we know about him.

KipPotapych · Apr 5, 2023

seaspear said:
View attachment 50401
Picture of the Russian "journalist" killed in the explosion he has been identified as a serving intelligence officer

@seaspear Wheres the link to the source? You have been on here long enough to know the rules.

Ngatimozart.

Not sure if there was anything hidden about the guy. I wouldn’t call him a journalist per se, but wouldn’t go as far as an intelligence officer either. “Intelligence officer” definitely sounds like a stretch. Most Russian sources I saw provide a brief bio along the lines of the following (via Google translate):

Maxim Yurievich Fomin was born on April 25, 1982 in Makeyevka, Donetsk region (now the DPR). After graduating from school, he worked at the mine. A few years later, he opened a furniture sales business. According to his own words, he took loans to expand the enterprise, but the stores did not bring enough profit. In December 2011, according to his story, he robbed a bank with his friends. He was arrested and convicted, serving his sentence in a colony in Gorlovka.

In the summer of 2014, there were fighting near the colony. On August 27, 2014, Maxim Fomin escaped from the colony and joined the militia, participated in combat operations with the call sign Professor. He was later arrested again, as there were no legal grounds for his release. However, he was pardoned by the head of the DPR Alexander Zakharchenko. He served under field commander Igor Bezler. Then he got into the Vityaz unit. After the transformation of the militia into a people's militia (NM) and until the end of 2014, he served in the intelligence company of the fourth brigade of the NM LPR. In the spring of 2015, he got into the Vostok battalion, as part of which he fought for a year. In 2017, he signed a contract with NM LPR. He served in battalion intelligence. He was not taken to the DPR People's Militia because of his criminal record.

In 2019, he resigned from military service. He moved to Moscow and under the name Vladlen Tatarsky began to lead his own group in VKontakte and Telegram channel, covering the events in Donbass (he chose a pseudonym in honor of the hero of Victor Pelevin's novel "Generation "P""). In early February 2022, he returned to service in the Vostok battalion. He managed drones, made calculations for UAVs. In addition, he covered the SVO as a war correspondent in social networks.

On September 30, 2022, he attended the ceremony of Vladimir Putin signing a decree on accession to Russia of the DPR, LPR, Kherson region and Zaporozhye. Leaving the hall, he said: "We will win everyone, we will kill everyone, we will rob everyone we need, everything will be as we love."

The Telegram channel "Vladlen Tatarsky" has about 563 thousand subscribers, in the group "VKontakte" - 21 thousand. Maxim Fomin is the author of the books "Run", "War" and "Meditation".

Usually accompanied by this photo, but sometimes another:

Taken from:

Кто такой Владлен Татарский

2 апреля 2023 года в кафе на Университетской набережной в Санкт-Петербурге произошел взрыв. Погиб военный корреспондент Владлен Татарский (настоящее имя — Максим Фомин). Подробности его биографии — в материале «Ъ».

www.kommersant.ru

As one may note, the last sentence of the second from the bottom paragraph has been parroted by many western outlets using google translate, literally, sometimes with some very basic minor adjustment. I don’t believe it was ever hidden that he actively participated in fighting, but timeline is uncertain. Some sources I saw mentioning he was a friend (or at the very least knew) Dugina, who was assassinated earlier. Little question, in my opinion, whether both of those were acts of terrorism: both were.

@KipPotapych My message in red above is not because the information is lacking but because a source is required and the original poster knows that. The Moderators and other posters are interested in sources because:

Including the source prevents both the original poster and the Forum from accusations of plagiarism which can result in legal action being taken against us.
Because it allows others to verify the veracity of the information and / or read further on the topic.
The rules stipulate that sources are required unless it is common knowledge. Common knowledge is defined as knowledge that the general public easily knows.

Ngatimozart.

KipPotapych · Apr 5, 2023

Feanor said:
The roads in and out of Artemovsk/Bakhmut remain under Russia fire, and destroyed Ukrainian vehicles are piling up in the area, but Ukrainian forces are still managing to keep the roads open.

The photos and videos from those roads start resembling photos/videos of the streets filled with burned Russian vehicles from last March.

Feanor · Apr 5, 2023

Update. Feb 22nd

Zaporozhye-Dnepropetrovsk.

Russian ATGM launch against allegedly Ukrainian munition storage. I can't tell what they hit but it's a large explosion.

Colonelcassad

Уничтожение склада с боекомплектом ВСУ на Запорожском направлении. @ZA_FROHT

t.me

Russian strike on a suspected Ukrainian LP/OP in Zaporozhye region.

Colonelcassad

Удар по наблюдательному пункту ВСУ в Запорожской области. @XU_kraine

t.me

The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Well-Known Member

The Bunker Group

Well-Known Member

The Bunker Group

Super Moderator

The Bunker Group

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The Bunker Group

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member