The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
While we all make fun of RU trotting out relics form the cold war, they are supposedly a 1st world power. The fact they sink to such depths (T-62, S-60, Mosin-N, etc) makes it fair game for mocking. UKR on the other hand is barely even a regional power and is fighting a battle for survival. Bringing out the maxim is an act of desperation, but still a wise act.
NATO has supplied Ukraine WWII-era howitzers and AAA, Ukraine's own supplies have dipped into pre-WWII stockpiles of Maxim guns and DP-27s. While NATOs own supplies are vast and the amounts of ready material much greater then what Russia can muster, this war has stretched even NATO's ability to provide military aid, especially in the area of artillery and ammunition. It is no surprise that Russia is in a bad spot. The post-Cold war dismantling of defense industries occurred in Russia as well as in the west. This is why we're seeing MT-LBs with naval AAA turrets, rather then hundreds of ZSU-23-4/57-2s. This is why the west is supplying Ukraine with M113s, and buckets of armored cars on civilian SUV chassis. Nobody was prepared for this war. Russia has fewer total supplies and especially total industrial capacity then NATO and this is a reality that cannot be escaped. If Russia is out of more modern equipment to be easily supplied and the front badly needs anything it can get, Russian T-62s are as wise a move as Ukraine's T-72M1s (or M-55S). Nothing makes LDNR reservist "snipers" (DM marksman?) Mosins any more laughable then Ukraine's Maxim guns. And while we're at it, last time I checked at least one NATO member used Mosins as sniper rifles in peacetime. None of this is to suggest Russia isn't desperate for war materiel. But to suggest that both sides are stretched thin.
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
NATO has supplied Ukraine WWII-era howitzers and AAA, Ukraine's own supplies have dipped into pre-WWII stockpiles of Maxim guns and DP-27s. While NATOs own supplies are vast and the amounts of ready material much greater then what Russia can muster, this war has stretched even NATO's ability to provide military aid, especially in the area of artillery and ammunition. It is no surprise that Russia is in a bad spot. The post-Cold war dismantling of defense industries occurred in Russia as well as in the west. This is why we're seeing MT-LBs with naval AAA turrets, rather then hundreds of ZSU-23-4/57-2s. This is why the west is supplying Ukraine with M113s, and buckets of armored cars on civilian SUV chassis. Nobody was prepared for this war. Russia has fewer total supplies and especially total industrial capacity then NATO and this is a reality that cannot be escaped. If Russia is out of more modern equipment to be easily supplied and the front badly needs anything it can get, Russian T-62s are as wise a move as Ukraine's T-72M1s (or M-55S). Nothing makes LDNR reservist "snipers" (DM marksman?) Mosins any more laughable then Ukraine's Maxim guns. And while we're at it, last time I checked at least one NATO member used Mosins as sniper rifles in peacetime. None of this is to suggest Russia isn't desperate for war materiel. But to suggest that both sides are stretched thin.
Its not like this situation wasn't known about though.

This is from 2017.

Long Wars and Industrial Mobilization: It Won’t Be World War II Again (warontherocks.com)
But a long war today would be totally different. In fact, after about nine months of intense peer conflict, attrition would grind the U.S. armed forces down to something resembling the military of a regional power. The Army, for example, would be armed primarily with infantry weapons with heavy firepower coming from gun trucks and a trickle of modern equipment acquired from struggling domestic production and whatever logisticians could scrounge up on the world market.
This is a situation that has occurred because no one wants to deal with the opportunity costs that occur with maintaining sufficient industrial capacity to sustain a high intensity war that they think may never happen.
Shades of the Shell Shortage of 1915.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
This is why we're seeing MT-LBs with naval AAA turrets
Wondering how good that old 37mm naval AAA gun can handle drones swarm. Russian is not the only ones that using suicide drones swarm.

I do suspect saturation AAA guns firing area, more efficient then using missiles defense for anti drones swarming attack.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I dont know if UKR can handle the increased costs of providing mustache wax, which is a prerequisite for the extreme handlebar.
And NATO's production of moustache wax are woefully inadequate for a war of this magnitude. Thus Ukraine will have to put their handlebars against Russia's pushbrooms. It remains to be seen whether Russia's supply of Soviet era moustache pomade (with a little extra purchased from Iran and China) can hold their own against NATOs aid.


And here we are back at the same problem as that of artillery discussed above.

Wondering how good that old 37mm naval AAA gun can handle drones swarm. Russian is not the only ones that using suicide drones swarm.

I do suspect saturation AAA guns firing area, more efficient then using missiles defense for anti drones swarming attack.
25mm, and very poorly. No radar, no EO. Slow turret rotation.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
25mm, and very poorly. No radar, no EO. Slow turret rotation.
Thanks for correction and explanation. In that case, I don't see more use on that gun turrets in this war as side anti personal on urban warfare or against dug out position.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for correction and explanation. In that case, I don't see more use on that gun turrets in this war as side anti personal on urban warfare or against dug out position.
It's part of a troop train carrying 1 ZSU-23-4, and 4 Strela-10s. It's very clearly a mixed air defense btln, with one battery AAA, one battery of SAMs, and one battery of MANPADS. It even makes sense for the 155th Marines, for whom it's reportedly meant. Marines mixed ADBtlns are 4-system batteries (unlike land forces that have 6-system batteries).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
NATO has supplied Ukraine WWII-era howitzers and AAA, Ukraine's own supplies have dipped into pre-WWII stockpiles of Maxim guns and DP-27s. While NATOs own supplies are vast and the amounts of ready material much greater then what Russia can muster, this war has stretched even NATO's ability to provide military aid, especially in the area of artillery and ammunition. It is no surprise that Russia is in a bad spot. The post-Cold war dismantling of defense industries occurred in Russia as well as in the west. This is why we're seeing MT-LBs with naval AAA turrets, rather then hundreds of ZSU-23-4/57-2s. This is why the west is supplying Ukraine with M113s, and buckets of armored cars on civilian SUV chassis. Nobody was prepared for this war. Russia has fewer total supplies and especially total industrial capacity then NATO and this is a reality that cannot be escaped. If Russia is out of more modern equipment to be easily supplied and the front badly needs anything it can get, Russian T-62s are as wise a move as Ukraine's T-72M1s (or M-55S). Nothing makes LDNR reservist "snipers" (DM marksman?) Mosins any more laughable then Ukraine's Maxim guns. And while we're at it, last time I checked at least one NATO member used Mosins as sniper rifles in peacetime. None of this is to suggest Russia isn't desperate for war materiel. But to suggest that both sides are stretched thin.
The T-54/55 family joins the party. Unlike the T-62 for which both ammo production was recently investigated, and repair and overhaul work was recently done for Syria and Libya, and an upgrade variant was publicly presented pre-war, these tanks have no modernization or overhaul program in existence. Returning them to service is presumably possible if any are in relatively good shape. But starting a whole overhaul line for them is going to be complicated. Considering we've only seen 3 btlns of T-62Ms on the battlefield (2 were deployed initially, one to DNR reservists, one as part of the Don Cossack irregulars brigade, and 1 more recently showed up in Kherson region sporting the new thermals), there is no way that Russia out of T-62s. It's likelier that this work is being done in anticipation of all the new combat units to be formed per the Napoleonic plans announced for expanding the Russian armed forces. Hypothetically it could have something to do with the relatively slow pace of work on the T-62s. But on the other hand, I don't see why it would be easier to set up a second T-62 line for work then a separate T-54/55 line. Again we still haven't seen mass use of the T-72A or older variants (though a few have cropped up here and there, and some were initially being used by the 90th TD).

One other possibility is the availability of tank shells for the type. We've seen Russia using MBTs in indirect fire mode (with UAVs for fire correction) quite a lot over the past 3 months. It's possible that Russia is finally running out shells, and pulling older tank types is being done specifically because they have a different caliber gun for which ammo is still available. The 100mm Rapira AT gun also uses 100mm shells but of a different type, making the two uncompatible (bad normally but good here since it means they're not competing for ammo supplies).

 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
The T-54/55 family joins the party. Unlike the T-62 for which both ammo production was recently investigated, and repair and overhaul work was recently done for Syria and Libya, and an upgrade variant was publicly presented pre-war, these tanks have no modernization or overhaul program in existence. Returning them to service is presumably possible if any are in relatively good shape. But starting a whole overhaul line for them is going to be complicated. Considering we've only seen 3 btlns of T-62Ms on the battlefield (2 were deployed initially, one to DNR reservists, one as part of the Don Cossack irregulars brigade, and 1 more recently showed up in Kherson region sporting the new thermals), there is no way that Russia out of T-62s. It's likelier that this work is being done in anticipation of all the new combat units to be formed per the Napoleonic plans announced for expanding the Russian armed forces. Hypothetically it could have something to do with the relatively slow pace of work on the T-62s. But on the other hand, I don't see why it would be easier to set up a second T-62 line for work then a separate T-54/55 line. Again we still haven't seen mass use of the T-72A or older variants (though a few have cropped up here and there, and some were initially being used by the 90th TD).

One other possibility is the availability of tank shells for the type. We've seen Russia using MBTs in indirect fire mode (with UAVs for fire correction) quite a lot over the past 3 months. It's possible that Russia is finally running out shells, and pulling older tank types is being done specifically because they have a different caliber gun for which ammo is still available. The 100mm Rapira AT gun also uses 100mm shells but of a different type, making the two uncompatible (bad normally but good here since it means they're not competing for ammo supplies).
Beat me to it. I saw this this morning, but couldnt post until now.

I railed on the introduction of T-62 and IMHO the same applies here. You have yet another tank to train 4 people for, a new type of ammo (can there really be adequate stocks of this left), and a new set of spare parts.

Something has to be very wrong in the RU military stocks to drag out a T-54. I cant see any other conclusion. Not enough T-90/80/72/62 hulls available ? Ammo restrictions ? No techie parts of upgrade other tanks ? Who knows.

Before someone mentions it - yes, UKR has the same problem. M-55S, T-80, T-64, (a few) T-90, and now L2.... entirely expected given the UKR position. At least there I would expect training and ammo and spare parts to be in a better situation.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Beat me to it. I saw this this morning, but couldnt post until now.

I railed on the introduction of T-62 and IMHO the same applies here. You have yet another tank to train 4 people for, a new type of ammo (can there really be adequate stocks of this left), and a new set of spare parts.

Something has to be very wrong in the RU military stocks to drag out a T-54. I cant see any other conclusion. Not enough T-90/80/72/62 hulls available ? Ammo restrictions ? No techie parts of upgrade other tanks ? Who knows.
I don't see how it can be hulls. The T-62s made a certain amount of sense. There was an armored repair plant that specialized in them, plenty were readily available in decent shape, and the overhaul line was running very recently for Syria and Libya. This far less so. Again it remains to be seen what happens.

Before someone mentions it - yes, UKR has the same problem. M-55S, T-80, T-64, (a few) T-90, and now L2.... entirely expected given the UKR position. At least there I would expect training and ammo and spare parts to be in a better situation.
Let me continue the list. T-72s, M1 Abrams, Challeneger-2s, Leo-1s. Russia has 3 ammo types if you count the T-54/55s. Ukraine has at least 4 (105mm M-55S/Leo-1s, 120mm rifles, 120mm smoothbore, and 125mm). The difference is, all of these are in production in the west in some significant quantities.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
One other possibility is the availability of tank shells for the type. We've seen Russia using MBTs in indirect fire mode (with UAVs for fire correction) quite a lot over the past 3 months.
This is the speculation that I see on some Pro Russian forums and telegrams. Speculation that they are going to be used in Zaparozye fronts as some kind of artillery support for countering Ukrainian Infantry and Armour (non MBT), if Ukrainian going to launch this summer offensive. This will leave more modern MBT to counter new MBT supplies by West.


It's likelier that this work is being done in anticipation of all the new combat units to be formed per the Napoleonic plans announced for expanding the Russian armed forces.
Agree on that, they (Russian) need something to armed those new recruits. Their Industry can not keep up fast, thus using mothball units is the fastest way around. If West supplies Ukrainian more and more coming from their mothball units, certainly same situation face by Russian on supplying new recruits.
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
This is the speculation that I see on some Pro Russian forums and telegrams. Speculation that they are going to be used in Zaparozye fronts as some kind of artillery support for countering Ukrainian Infantry and Armour (non MBT), if Ukrainian going to launch this summer offensive. This will leave more modern MBT to counter new MBT supplies by West.
Is the T-54/55 even capable of useful indirect fire ? Poor optics and comms, and I assume no built in measures for artillery shots, could this really be used in this role ?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is the T-54/55 even capable of useful indirect fire ? Poor optics and comms, and I assume no built in measures for artillery shots, could this really be used in this role ?
You can always fire and adjust off impact. By itself, probably not very well. But with UAV support, almost certainly.
 

Capt. Ironpants

Active Member
Beat me to it. I saw this this morning, but couldnt post until now.

I railed on the introduction of T-62 and IMHO the same applies here. You have yet another tank to train 4 people for, a new type of ammo (can there really be adequate stocks of this left), and a new set of spare parts.

Something has to be very wrong in the RU military stocks to drag out a T-54. I cant see any other conclusion. Not enough T-90/80/72/62 hulls available ? Ammo restrictions ? No techie parts of upgrade other tanks ? Who knows.

Before someone mentions it - yes, UKR has the same problem. M-55S, T-80, T-64, (a few) T-90, and now L2.... entirely expected given the UKR position. At least there I would expect training and ammo and spare parts to be in a better situation.
I hesitate to comment, as I am just a civvie and certainly no expert when it comes to tanks. T-55s were the most common ones seen during the 1990s conflicts in former Yugoslavia, and I was told they are one of the easiest to operate and don't require the extensive training more modern tanks do. I gathered they were not all that difficult or complicated to keep in repair as the various sides managed to keep them going to the end, even the ragtag VRSK. Their armor seemed to leave a lot to be desired, though, as well-aimed RPGs could take them out. (There were also M-84s in theater, and these appeared to be better armored.) I hope the experts here will correct me if my take is wrong, but it seems to me that T-55s might make some sense as stopgaps for both Ukraine and Russia as they could perhaps be fielded more quickly because of the shorter training? And would they be easier to keep in repair in the field? (Cambodia had a few rattletrap T-54s still clanking around back in the 90s, and it seemed rather miraculous to me that the things could still move.) Perhaps I'm way off here, and hope it's okay to ask you guys who are experts.
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
You can always fire and adjust off impact. By itself, probably not very well. But with UAV support, almost certainly.
But is there even enough ammo for that sort of thing? There are no line of production for T-55 ammo and any stored ammo must be decades old.

I guess time will tell. It's not like Russia will tell us how many T-55 ammo they have stored so the only way we will know will be via their performance in the battlefield.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Its not just the T-55 but the preceding T-54 which entered production at end of second world war ,a question might be of the rumored large numbers of old tanks in reserve that were much younger are they holding them back or they cant be brought back into service ,it would be interesting to see latest satellite pictures of these old tank yard which had thousands in storage to see whats happening or not
Russia dusting off T-54, T-55 tanks as armor losses mount in Ukraine (taskandpurpose.com)
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update. Feb 13th-14th

Kherson-Nikolaev-Odessa.

Mobilization efforts continue in Odessa.


Zaporozhye-Dnepropetrovsk.

Russian Palantin EW got destroyed in Zaporozhye region.


Oskol Front.

Russian BMPT fires near Kremennaya. This very curious and rather awkward vehicle has turned out much better the I would have thought, in actual combat. But ultimately hasn't done anything that can't be done by more conventional means.


Russian artillery strikes near Svatovo.


Russian recon near Kremennaya showing off captured Milan ATGMs.


Reportedly Russian forces have pushed back Ukraine's 80th and 95th Air-mobile brigades near Kremennaya 1-2kms back from the town.


LDNR Front.

Russian UAV-dropped munitions, Seversk area.


Russian Su-24 damaged near Artemovsk/Bakhmut, possibly the same jet Prigozhin recently flew in.


M113AS4 knocked out, Mar'inka.


DNR Kaskad btln UAV-directed artillery fires in the Ugledar area.


DNR Kaskad btln assault teams capturing a Ukrainian POW, Ugledar area.


Footage of Ugledar. The town is clearly in ruins.


Russia BMP-3M destroyed near Ugledar. Note up until now it's been regular BMP-3s that we've seen.


Allegedly a Russian TOS-1A getting destroyed near Ugledar.


DNR 58th SpN btln firing an ATGM at allegedly a Ukrainian BMP-2. They clearly hit something based on the blast, but what isn't clear.


Allegedly a Ukrainian UAV operator team getting hit by an ATGM launch from the 58th SpN btln.


DNR 1st Bde MT-12s firing, exact location unclear.


LNR quadcopter munition drops.


LNR MGR in Stakhanov got hit by a strike presumably Ukrainian, allegedly HIMARS. Note Ministries of Interior and state security agencies on both sides of the front line are actively participating in the war effort, making them generally legitimate targets.


School No3 in Mariupol' got hit by allegedly a HIMARS strike. It was allegedly a Russian staging area.


HIMARS munition fragments Nikol'skoe (Volodarskoe) DNR area.


Russian strikes in Kramatorks aimed at a local sports facility allegedly being used as a Ukrainian staging area.


In Kramatorsk it appears the Ukrainian city mayor's office has fled. This is despite the town not currently being on the front line, and there still being a significant civilian population in the town. The person filming has unkind words for the city officials and the Ukrainian president.


Misc.


Russian tank fires, through thermals, 64th Motor-Rifles. Location and context unclear.


Ukrainian river boat getting hit by a Russian loitering munition. Unclear whether it's Kherson or Zaporozhye-Dnepropetrovsk area.


Ukrainian Uragan MLRS flipped upside down and destroyed.


Ukrainian Mugin-5 UAVs purchased from China and converted into improvised loitering munitions, but shot down by Russian forces.


Another Ukrainian MiG-29 pilot that may have been downed in an encounter with a Shahed munition.


Ukrainian M113SA4 captured, possibly the same one as above in Mar'inka.


Apparently captured Ukrainian kit, location and context unclear.


BTR-82As with extra armor kits in Ukraine. Note pre-war only the latest BTR-82ATs had the mounts of the extra armor were available. However in the course of the war we've seen at least some BTR-82As with mountings for the armor but the original sights. Weak armor protection is probably the biggest weakness of the BTR-82A.


Russian crews training on BRM-1KAMs in Ukraine. The type is a logical and relatively inexpensive BRM/BMP-1 upgrade. If they could add Kornets to the turret, and extra armor on the hull it would go from decent to downright good.


Russian T-72B3 mod'22s in Ukraine. Note the Sosna and wind sensors.


Russian armored tractor, somewhere in Ukraine.


Captured Russian vehicles getting refitted and repaired in Ukraine.


Ukrainian mobilization efforts continue.


NATO/EU.

Ukrainian service members training on Leo-2s in Poland.


US military equipment being unloaded in Germany. Some of it is likely to end up in Ukraine.


Norway is reportedly handing over 8 Leo-2A4NOs to Ukraine.

 
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