Aardvark144
Active Member
It seems like the Aussie Media has finally woken up on the topic. Multiple Print and Radio now mentioning next week in San Diego.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The rough numbers for a P-270 Moskit work out to a ballistic trajectory covering about 2.5 km. The 'real' numbers would likely be somewhat less if the missile were to break up during the terminal approach as some of the debris would likely have a higher drag coefficient. However, that 2.5 km distance which the missile and/or debris would continue to fly through is greater than the ~1.5 km max effective range of a Mk 15 Phalanx. Also the P-270 is an AShM with a supersonic final approach and not a hypersonic weapon.
Wouldn’t a Phalanx be a better option for drone swarm attack? Eg a nearby fishing fleet launched a swarm of 20kg drones?
Aardvark144
Active Member
Has been discussed previously and on other sites. The Sun is predominantly a domestic new outlet for the UK. How about we wait until next week
No drama mate but this is now coming out of UK and US sources. I have no opinion or barrow to push on the subject.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Possibly, though if such a swarm was launched from vectors either outside of a Mk 15 firing arc, or within the firing arc but from multiple vectors a Mk 15 would potentially have issues. For something specific like lightweight drones and EW system might be more effective and efficient. Depending on what type or radar array is fitted, EA might even be an option.
It is one of those things where the utility of a piece of kit depends on the scenario and circumstances to a large degree.
At the risk of repeating myself - Feb 17 post# 3594
I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea but I don't imagine they would be transfered immediately. The HMS Astute itself was intended to serve 25 years which would suggest it would need replacing circa 2035. It might be conceivable that the RN might accelerate the replacement of this sub by a few years. It may also be possible to stretch out the service life of the Astute for a few more years giving Australia some capability out to the late 30s which may be enough time for a domestically built submarine to be completed.
All speculation. I expect we will know more in a few weeks.
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Thought I would share some thing on Workforce requirements for the SSNs.
108 Phd
215 world class experts
2635 mid tier professionals
3010 nuclear aware workers
This is not the workforce required to build the subs. this is just the world force to barely operate the subs.
It would be ideal to target coal power station shift managers, as coal declines moving skilled people in nuclear technology is a must. Those highly valued people with experience will be critical. It is a once only deal we need to make. There is a huge amount of overlapping experience operating a coal power station and a nuclear reactor. While the fuel source is different many of the skills and experience would be ball park similar. 1 or 2 years operating a nuclear Power Station on shore is small but if its backed by 5-10 years of coal power station experience it gives a lot more context.
Leasing Astutes doesn't solve our crewing problem. We won't crew anything by 2024 or 2026.
It would be the RN basing them in Australia with RN crews and RAN crews learning.
It doesn't help our only experience with nuclear energy and nuclear science is in Sydney. We don't base subs in or near Sydney anymore.
108 Phd
215 world class experts
2635 mid tier professionals
3010 nuclear aware workers
This is not the workforce required to build the subs. this is just the world force to barely operate the subs.
This aspect would have to start straight away. Even if the subs were 10 years into the future.
It would be ideal to target coal power station shift managers, as coal declines moving skilled people in nuclear technology is a must. Those highly valued people with experience will be critical. It is a once only deal we need to make. There is a huge amount of overlapping experience operating a coal power station and a nuclear reactor. While the fuel source is different many of the skills and experience would be ball park similar. 1 or 2 years operating a nuclear Power Station on shore is small but if its backed by 5-10 years of coal power station experience it gives a lot more context.
Leasing Astutes doesn't solve our crewing problem. We won't crew anything by 2024 or 2026.
It would be the RN basing them in Australia with RN crews and RAN crews learning.
It doesn't help our only experience with nuclear energy and nuclear science is in Sydney. We don't base subs in or near Sydney anymore.
I imagine that we don't have a lot of graduating PHD level scientists entering the workforce. Not to mention it takes around 10 years experience to produce experts.
So about 3 to 5 years to get a PHD and another 10 years to become expert.
Gives you an idea how challenging this is going to be.
So about 3 to 5 years to get a PHD and another 10 years to become expert.
Gives you an idea how challenging this is going to be.
Yep, My personal thoughts are that any hypersonic missile would reduce its velocity significantly as its altitude decreased in its terminal dive due to increased drag from the denser atmosphere and that debris would decelerate very quickly to subsonic speeds due to the very high supersonic drag for misshapen objects. Any missile that starts to break up at hypersonic speeds will self destruct very quickly due to the enormous forces involved. the other point to consider is that due to the misshapen nature of the debris, it will not continue on a predictable path and could and would go anywhere, not necessarily hitting the target. Even the warhead if not exploded would in all probability be tumbling with the associated aerodynamic forces decelerating it very quickly and it going on an unpredictable course.
Another question is how many Hypersonic missiles is your adversary likely able to afford and would they be reserved for priority targets. I personally think that for small and medium size warships that the greatest threat for some time to come will be the subsonic, low altitude and stealthy missile given the close rang detection is likely and the very limited range of engagement you may have.
A swarm of drones is no longer in the fantasy space.
Near by Fishing Fleet or many other launching possibility's are very much on the radar.
My pic would not be a relatively short raged solid shot but rather explosive rounds that create a bubble of shrapnel.
40mm is still my choice of calibre to meet the broad range inner defence scenarios.
Programable ammunition gives choice to the challenge at hand.
Cheers S
WaveWalker
Member
Until Australia decides tradies are not worth perhaps double what a graduate scientist earns it will be very difficult to keep our graduates in Australia. The money and opportunities are simply far greater overseas than in Australia.
On top of that many young people wouldn’t consider working for the military under any circumstances, from an ethical point of view. There are lots of negatives to working in the military and not a lot of advantages in todays world. We need to make it a far more lucrative and attractive career.
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Do you have a source for this?
Patience grasshopper. Whilst I agree that the Astute Class is looking more likely, the overly rotund lady hasn't warmed up her vocal chords and it ain't over until she's sung.
Lolcake
Active Member
Nothing official of course. So apologies for the direct inference. Just getting a little over-excited.
7 News mentioned US media reporting it will be the 13th. Time stamp, roughly 40 seconds in. AFR posted an article this morning also reporting it could be on the 13th.
Never would have imagined speaking with the old timer GF in 2007 on Strategypage where the topic of discussion was us aquiring vastly inferior equipment, that we now would be aquiring nuclear attack subs, Apache's and Vastly superior surface Vessels to those envisaged back then. I am still pinching my self.
Babcock Australia has appointed a former R.N admiral to lead the AUKUS division I won't speculate why
Defence Connect - Defence Industry News and Analysis
Defence Connect - Defence Industry News and Analysis
Australia, financed by farms and mines, run by lawyers and accountants for the benefit of financiers.
No desire for middle a class, or the professionals and para-professionals that form it, much better to have happy cashed up low skilled bogans who think it's cool to get paid more than the hoity toity educated people. A barrista in Sydney get paid more than a technical manager in
Uneducated, i.e. not even an apprenticeship, are allowed to call themselves tradesmen, people do two three day courses plus an assignment get a diploma in something or other and call themselves para professionals.
At the same time Engineers Australia and other bodies have rigged it so people who have done apprenticeships, associate or advanced diploma plus a professional post grad studies can't work at senior levels. Almost all the roles they filled up until about ten years ago are now professional engineer slots.
We have a shortage of competent qualified technical and engineering people and rent seeking organisations are gaming the system to place engineers into governance and assurance, instead of engineering, and keep techos on lower salaries than admin and finance people. It's a better career move for techos to transition to QA ILS CM PM or admin than it is to stay in engineering.
I wonder why we have shortages.