Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Maybe this weekend or early next week seeing as the UK PM is travelling to DC this weekend according to the UK press.
Rishi Sunak to announce significant increase in military spending during visit to the US | Daily Mail Online
Well according to the Daily Mail Albanese and Sunak will both be in Washington this Weekend, why this is not being reported in the Australian Press is beyond me.
UK and Australia urge Washington to ease secrecy rules in security pact | Financial Times (ft.com)
Monday 13 Mar Washington time according to the Financial Times.
 
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Aardvark144

Active Member
Rishi Sunak to announce significant increase in military spending during visit to the US | Daily Mail Online
Well according to the Daily Mail Albanese and Sunak will both be in Washington this Weekend, why this is not being reported in the Australian Press is beyond me.
There were media reports a number of weeks ago that the likely sub announcement would be when the three leaders would meet in DC in mid-March. Might pick up a head of steam in the Aus media when he leaves the cricket in India to travel to the US this weekend (maybe?)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I understand we have one Phalanx on each of the Hobart Class.
One on HMAS Choules and one on each of the Supply Class.
If the math is correct, that's 6 active units across the fleet.

If I recall we have 12 units with talk of an additional two.
Total inventory others could advise, but I'd suggest we have some spare capacity to deploy with the Canberra Class.
Why this has not being taken up is a mystery.

While there are arguments for and against Phalanx, it's certainly more capable than the LHD's 25mm Bushmasters.

Not quite sure if the DSR will shed any light on this subject!


Cheers S
IIRC the RAN has/operates the Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS on a pool basis, so whilst there might not be enough units to have all the possible mountings permanently fitted, IIRC some of the 'extra' pool CIWS do get fitted to ships heading into certain areas where more CIWS could be advisable if/when needed.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
There were media reports a number of weeks ago that the likely sub announcement would be when the three leaders would meet in DC in mid-March. Might pick up a head of steam in the Aus media when he leaves the cricket in India to travel to the US this weekend (maybe?)
I'm not surprised he is, it is just the total lack of any announcements in the Australian Press, seems to be a blackout on the story.
 

rand0m

Member
I understand we have one Phalanx on each of the Hobart Class.
One on HMAS Choules and one on each of the Supply Class.
If the math is correct, that's 6 active units across the fleet.

If I recall we have 12 units with talk of an additional two.
Total inventory others could advise, but I'd suggest we have some spare capacity to deploy with the Canberra Class.
Why this has not being taken up is a mystery.

While there are arguments for and against Phalanx, it's certainly more capable than the LHD's 25mm Bushmasters.

Not quite sure if the DSR will shed any light on this subject!


Cheers S
How ridiculous, some sort of CIWS should be fitted out to every major warship in the fleet as a minimum. If these ships were going into any sort of contested area I can guarantee you they would be kitted out very quickly (as we did in the ME with the frigates from memory?)

For the cost, it's deplorable that we would even have such ships with the number of personnel on assets onboard not fitted out with them in the first place!!
 
It’s surprising that for the relatively small expenditure of the current CIWS mounts, money couldn’t be found to permanently fit all vessels.
If Australia is serious about being able to fight our potential adversaries, adding something like RIM-116 would surely be necessary.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well hmas canberra is mean to happen ..
The upgraded systems will be deployed onto the Hobart class destroyer, Canberra class LHD and HMAS Choules platforms.
Maybe once the upgraded systems are back.

The anzacs can't fit a phalanx due to top weight issues.

Hunters are supposed to fit two Phalanx, each so we will need more mounts regardless.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
It’s surprising that for the relatively small expenditure of the current CIWS mounts, money couldn’t be found to permanently fit all vessels.
If Australia is serious about being able to fight our potential adversaries, adding something like RIM-116 would surely be necessary.
Yeah.
It’s totally counter intuitive!
Either they’re simply being cheap & not going to fit them at all, or they’re going to be in a mad rush to fit as much as they can at last minute?
- Will there be enough for the fleet?
Perhaps they’re holding off, pending a CIWS capability upgrade? All total speculation of course as I try to rationalise their motivation?

One would think that having a CIWS permanently fixed to your ship would be better logistically and for training currency.
 

Aardvark144

Active Member
Any sources for that information? I haven't been able to find anything. If it is true, San Diego is home for the U.S. Submarine Squadron 11 that consists of four Los Angeles class submarines (U.S. Navy).
This is what I read -
 

ddxx

Well-Known Member
The anzacs can't fit a phalanx due to top weight issues.
With the replacement of the heavier Harpoon system with the lighter and more compact NSM it’ll be interesting to see how much margin is gained back in top weight.

It’s certainly not ideal for the ANZACs to be without a CIWS as part of a layered defence against anti-ship missiles and other threats.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
With the replacement of the heavier Harpoon system with the lighter and more compact NSM it’ll be interesting to see how much margin is gained back in top weight.

It’s certainly not ideal for the ANZACs to be without a CIWS as part of a layered defence against anti-ship missiles and other threats.
It could be looked at I guess. I don't think there is a big taste for it. People aren't jumping out of their chairs about lack of Phalanx CIWS, they seem to be focused on VLS counts. The NSM are lighter, but they aren't hugely lighter, and harpoons aren't the only thing contributing to top weight issues.

Its pretty maxed out. Maybe they could fit something like CAMM that is nice and light with lighter launchers and could serve as an inner layer to ESSM.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
It could be looked at I guess. I don't think there is a big taste for it. People aren't jumping out of their chairs about lack of Phalanx CIWS, they seem to be focused on VLS counts. The NSM are lighter, but they aren't hugely lighter, and harpoons aren't the only thing contributing to top weight issues.

Its pretty maxed out. Maybe they could fit something like CAMM that is nice and light with lighter launchers and could serve as an inner layer to ESSM.
A Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS is ~6.2 tonnes. The Kiwi frigates have theirs mounted aft atop the hangar. Not sure if the RAN FFH's had a mounting built for them their as well or not. In order for the topweight issues of the RAN ANZAC-class frigates to not become even more of an issue, a comparable amount of topweight would need to be reduced elsewhere, in order to fit Phalanx. I do not really see that as happening.

Also keep in mind that Phalanx as a CIWS for AShM defence has been reduced in effectiveness vs. a number of the more modern and capable AShM. This is part of the reason why the -1B mod was developed to provide some anti-FAC capability.

It’s surprising that for the relatively small expenditure of the current CIWS mounts, money couldn’t be found to permanently fit all vessels.
If Australia is serious about being able to fight our potential adversaries, adding something like RIM-116 would surely be necessary.
There can be a number of advantages to operating a fairly simple system like the Mk 15 Phalanx in a pool fashion vs. permanently fixed mountings. AFAIK the RAN Mk 15 uses a non-deck penetrating mounting which can the Mk 15 can be bolted to, and then electrical, cooling and command/control connections wired. What this means from a more practical standpoint, aside from the RAN not needing to spend coin to purchase a Mk 15 for every single mounting spot across the entirety of the RAN fleet, is that instead of needing to conduct all maintenance, repairs and upgrades aboard ship, a Mk 15 could be pulled off a ship and replaced with a different Mk 15 which is ready for service.

Properly managed, modular/pool weapons and systems can be fitted and swapped so that available units are in service and vessels are not either deployed with a non-functional system or kept from deploying because they have a system awaiting repair.

In some respects, I do wish that the RAN would adopt more modular systems which could be used to augment the individual capabilities of vessels without requiring a full dockyard refit.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
‘Fitted For But Not With’, is excellent treasury speak for risk management, which in turn is code for ‘do nothing cos she’ll be right, bet it won’t be needed‘.

In the end of the day, the ships will need it fitted.
Probably every appropriate ship in the fleet will need its compliment fitted at the same time.
So, where ever that ship happens to be, it will need to return to be fitted.

The very premise is absurd & a throwback to strategic environments past, but hey, it’s only a warship.
 
Wouldn’t it make sense to spend the relative peanuts and fit all ships with effective CIWS and then have spares to swap out for maintenance. We’re spending billions of dollars on more deployed VLS tubes but we are not effectively protecting the ships that carry them. After all, we fight with what we have.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
‘Fitted For But Not With’, is excellent treasury speak for risk management, which in turn is code for ‘do nothing cos she’ll be right, bet it won’t be needed‘.

In the end of the day, the ships will need it fitted.
Probably every appropriate ship in the fleet will need its compliment fitted at the same time.
So, where ever that ship happens to be, it will need to return to be fitted.

The very premise is absurd & a throwback to strategic environments past, but hey, it’s only a warship.
I doubt that every vessel would need to be fitted at the same time. How often has the RAN, or any navy for that matter, had every single warship ready and available for deployment?

I would expect that in major wartime conditions, the normal 'Rule of Threes' might get modified or suspended, with some of the more minor maintenance and training cycles either postponed or cancelled outright. However, there will still be times when warships are undergoing significant maintenance or repair periods and not available for deployment for weeks or possibly even months at a time. In such cases, it would be much better to have a modular system which could be removed from the docked vessel and available to be used aboard another vessel.

Wouldn’t it make sense to spend the relative peanuts and fit all ships with effective CIWS and then have spares to swap out for maintenance. We’re spending billions of dollars on more deployed VLS tubes but we are not effectively protecting the ships that carry them. After all, we fight with what we have.
Here is the rub with the above post. What (at this point in time) is an effective CIWS? Is it SeaPhalanx, Phalanx, RAM, SeaRAM, or something else entirely?

Given a choice, I would rather have a Phalanx fitted prior to deploying to a possible combat zone than not, unless something else more effective was available. However the Phalanx and SeaPhalanx systems have kind of had their day in terms of effectiveness vs. aerial threats. Remember that their effective range is less than 2km, which means that there would only be ~1.3 sec of firing possible against potential inbound supersonic AShM like the П-270 Москит /P-270 Moskit/SS-N-22 Sunburn.

This then leads into the question of whether or not the RAN should start bringing some other type of CIWS into service, or alternately if more sensor systems as well as VLS and missiles are needed, to detect and attempt to intercept such threats before they get into an inner defensive layer?

I raise the question not so much because I want an answer, but to raise the point that there are tradeoffs. Spending coin, albeit probably not all that much since I think Mk 15 Phalanx systems current cost something like USD$15 mil. on a system that potentially will not contribute to the overall defences of a vessel, does not make sense. It might be a better/wiser decision to instead increase the number of active decoys like Nulka fitted to RAN vessels. Or have the RAN add another missile type into the inventory, and begin integrating a missile-based CIWS and/or VSHORAD missile to the fleet.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
I doubt that every vessel would need to be fitted at the same time. How often has the RAN, or any navy for that matter, had every single warship ready and available for deployment?
I appreciate what you’re saying.
In the end of the day, the level of defensive equipment allocated to a fleet unit will be risk managed according to its current/pre-determined perceived threat.

The optimum CIWS solution may not be deemed needed to be fitted.
 
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