Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
- Thread starter OPSSG
- Start date
In May 2022, average weekly total earning in Australia, which of course includes both billionaires and casual hospitality workers, was $1835.20, seasonally adjusted. Interestingly, male and female employee averages for ordinary time employment were higher in public employment than in private employment, by a bit under $250 p.w. for males and almost $300 p.w. for females. Source: ABS, Average Weekly Earnings, Australia, May 2022.
That actually stacks up with some research I did earlier this year which showed that tradesmen, qualified at the inspector level and in South Eastern Australia outside Sydney, were attracting salaries of between about $95K and $120k, depending on trade
That actually stacks up with some research I did earlier this year which showed that tradesmen, qualified at the inspector level and in South Eastern Australia outside Sydney, were attracting salaries of between about $95K and $120k, depending on trade
Last edited:
I wasn't making an argument at all.
I was merely using that as a comparison based on the manning capabilities.
Another better example might be the European Patrol Corvette in planning that is designed specifically for Oceanic range and has an on paper range larger than both the Hobart and Hunter.
At 3000t ~110m and an expected compliment of 90, it might be a better example of a larger corvette more suited to our requirements.
You would still get close to 2 for 1 in terms of manning requirements vs a Hunter.
Last edited:
Still then becomes same issues if not worse then the Anzac's. No room to upgrade or expand capabilities if the situation calls for it.
In the end for the role we want something affordable, low manning and plenty of room to upgrade. The Type 31 fits that bill nicely, or can even go back in its evolution to the Absalon class from Denmark and retain the flex deck and stern ramp which may be of use in our region.
Rather then thinking in vessel size which can sidetrack people think just in it's requirements and future proof capability. A 3,000t corvette will do Europe nicely because if they do run into any issues they have a dozen friendly or allied nations all around them to back them up, For Australia being at the a** end of the world we dont so we shouldn't and realistically can't limit our selves to a particular size.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I would hardly consider the European Patrol Corvette a good example, given the very wide differences between national designs, as well as the number of features or capabilities which yet to be publicly stated.
For instance, I have been able to find some information on a proposed Italian EPC design concept which did actually have systems and capabilities which would make it an FSG, with a 76 mm gun, LWT launchers, 16 VLS cells (likely for CAMM-ER), a pair of 25 mm guns, and possibly 4 AShM. In addition, there was a range estimate of 4,000 n miles @ 14 kts but no mention of endurance. Incidentally a cruising speed of 14 kts AFAIK would put the vessel at a slower cruising speed than most RAN vessels which IIRC are normally based around 18 kts cruising speed. All this to deliver a vessel with less capabilities than the somewhat larger, upgraded ANZAC-class FFH's.
In a similar vein, the information I have found for the proposed French version is intended to replace their Floreal-class frigates which patrol and support French overseas territories. Whilst the intended range is significant (8k - 10k n miles) and presumably an at sea endurance to largely match, there is no mention I have encountered of what the cruising speed to achieve such ranges. Given the Floreal-class frigates are listed with a range of 9k n miles @ 15 kts, I suspect the cruising speed would be something similar. Perhaps more importantly, the self-defence armament for the French version is the Thales RAPIDFire 40 mm gun system for an anti-air/anti-surface CIWS. I do not know enough about the similarities and differences in capabilities between the 40 mm Marlin gun originally proposed for the Arafura-class OPV and the 40 mm RAPIDFire gun, but it would seem that the French design would be armed more as an OPV than a corvette, which would then run into all the problems operating in Australian areas of interest that the Arafura-class OPV would.
There does seem to be a basic consensus amongst many that any future/additional combatants would at a minimum need to have ANZAC-class frigate levels of sensors, armament and capabilities, whilst also possessing the range, seakeeping and endurance to be able to actually transit to/from areas of interest to Australia and also have some time on station. An unfortunate reality is that a vessel the size and displacement of a corvette is just not going to be able to have both the systems and range/endurance that the RAN would really need.
Exactly. When I was in the RNZN and still today everyone does DC. We all had to do DC and fire training on our Basic Common Training (recruit course) when joining, and ever trip out there were always fire, DC, man overboard etc., drills held during the first couple of watches.
Don’t forget that duty watch fire drills are/used to be, held every single day and they involved all ranks and rates, cooks, stewards and stokers, everyone.
I couldn’t agree more. We have a modern GP Frigate (yes I know it’s nominally ASW) optimised for our needs that is just starting construction.
In my view, we need more Hunters, more quickly.
More crew to man them, more quickly.
Personally, I think we should be leaving the OPVs as they are and doubling the size of our Hunter fleet.
Yes this is expensive. Much more than the $6bn in the press for corvettes.
But Australia is a maritime power, and we need to be able to make the Eastern Indian Ocean, the Indonesian Archipelago and the South Pacific very bad places to be if we don’t want you there. Corvettes won’t have the range, seakeeping, crew amenities, flexibility, growth margin and combat power to do this.
I don’t think this is unrealistic. By 2050 our population will be comparable to the UK, and our economy likely significantly larger. They are planning on a total of 24 destroyers and frigates. Why shouldn’t we be aiming for something in the same ball park, rather than half the size?
in any case my view remains that the best thing we can be doing is throwing whatever additional resources we need in accelerating the Hunters.
When considering the question of Corvettes, size of vessels, capabilities etc,
- what abt Escorts?
Convoy Escorts.
Ensuring the safe passage of trade packages thru a SLOC from point A to point B.
Is there a possible distinction between smaller more general fighting vessels (’generic’ Corvette) v a more dedicated Escort type?
Perhaps ASW-lite, enough to make interference with the protected convoy sufficiently dangerous & only really supplied for each out/back tasking (Thereby allowing for a vessel design of shorter range and smaller tonnages)?
ie: As instead of trying to accommodate a more multi-role long range Patrol solution.
- what abt Escorts?
Convoy Escorts.
Ensuring the safe passage of trade packages thru a SLOC from point A to point B.
Is there a possible distinction between smaller more general fighting vessels (’generic’ Corvette) v a more dedicated Escort type?
Perhaps ASW-lite, enough to make interference with the protected convoy sufficiently dangerous & only really supplied for each out/back tasking (Thereby allowing for a vessel design of shorter range and smaller tonnages)?
ie: As instead of trying to accommodate a more multi-role long range Patrol solution.
Last edited:
Level of threat, versus money, versus crew training, versus time.
Level of threat is identified.
Oz is a rich nation. For all the worlds economic turmoil we can and will find the coin for defence.
Expanding and crewing the fleet in as short a time as practical is the challenge.
Time is the challenge.
Repeat
Time is the challenge.
How do we get the best increase in surface capability within the next 7 to 8 years and what does that look like.
What that looks like will be a compromise, based on time due to the apathy and poor decision making over the previous two decades.
It will be a bastard decision and a compromised vessel.
Its comparison is not to compare it to what we actually want and for that matter actually need.
But rather what we would of had; that being an under gunned OPV.
The RAN will no doubt push ahead with the Hunter Class and I'm sure they"ll be an admirable ship.
Maybe fingers crossed it will be a flawless build, not only running on time but also ahead of schedule.
Even so, it wont be till mid next decade that any significant numbers of Hunter's will be providing a meaningful service to the RAN.
As to additional Hobart's.
As appealing as it is, my gut feeling tells me for whatever layer of hurdles, it probably wont happen.
Which leaves us with what is in production today and what variation of that we can work with within the time available.
Call it fantasy fleets or whatever, but my gut feeling is that the recent media hype re up gunning OPV's / Corvettes is more than just selling copy.
Maybe some enlightenment in March of next year.
We may not like or approve of the decision, but we work with what is realistic.
Anyway that's my view through the looking glass.
Time will tell, aye what!
Cheers S
protoplasm
Active Member
This is Australia, range and sea keeping are everything. It doesn’t matter how wiz bang amazing the technology on the ship is, if the ship can’t get there, and persist there, it is of no use.
This means that the design must enable the desired systems to be carried to where they are needed. So a smaller hull is automatically very constrained by the trade off of carried fuel and crew supplies, versus the available tonnage and power for combat and weapon systems. In our case that will naturally lead to a larger hull, just to enable the transits to happen in our part of the world.
If we think about the current ANZAC systems with a proper tail for ASW. That’d make for a fairly good convoy escort. Able to defend a small bubble from air attack, and do the detect to engage chain for ASW. I reckon that the hull we’d want to put it on would be larger than the current ANZAC class, even with modern levels of automation to reduce crew size.
This means that the design must enable the desired systems to be carried to where they are needed. So a smaller hull is automatically very constrained by the trade off of carried fuel and crew supplies, versus the available tonnage and power for combat and weapon systems. In our case that will naturally lead to a larger hull, just to enable the transits to happen in our part of the world.
If we think about the current ANZAC systems with a proper tail for ASW. That’d make for a fairly good convoy escort. Able to defend a small bubble from air attack, and do the detect to engage chain for ASW. I reckon that the hull we’d want to put it on would be larger than the current ANZAC class, even with modern levels of automation to reduce crew size.
I think people are missing what the corvettes will most likely be doing, they will be extending Australian presence into our greater region, including the South Pacific.
No one is talking corvettes instead of Hunters, no one is talking corvettes as an ANZAC replacement. The only capacity corvettes are being discussed in is as an alternative to building all twelve Arafuras and arming them, with the possibility of replacing already completed Arafuras and cascading them to border force.
Why are they talking corvettes? The same reason they are talking arming the Arafuras with anti ship missiles, our strategic situation has deteriorated and a major power is seeking to gain influence and advantage in our immediate region.
They are signing treaties to access ports and other facilities and we can be sure to see "fishing fleets" and escorting "coast guard" vessels. Just look to what has been happening in the South China Sea, people have literally been shot and killed, boats and ships have been rammed.
Basically we can expect an escalation in our region that the Arafuras, let alone the Capes, are not equipped to deal with, but do not justify a major fleet unit.
Corvettes will be similar in price and crew to armed OPVs but more capable. They would be an affordable increase in capability, better able to show the flag and provide security in our region.
We can debate that an up gunned OPV or at the other extreme, a patrol or GP frigate would be a better option than a Corvette, but to suggest a full blown FFG or DDG would be better completely misses the point. This is an alternative to OPVs, not to the Hunters.
No one is talking corvettes instead of Hunters, no one is talking corvettes as an ANZAC replacement. The only capacity corvettes are being discussed in is as an alternative to building all twelve Arafuras and arming them, with the possibility of replacing already completed Arafuras and cascading them to border force.
Why are they talking corvettes? The same reason they are talking arming the Arafuras with anti ship missiles, our strategic situation has deteriorated and a major power is seeking to gain influence and advantage in our immediate region.
They are signing treaties to access ports and other facilities and we can be sure to see "fishing fleets" and escorting "coast guard" vessels. Just look to what has been happening in the South China Sea, people have literally been shot and killed, boats and ships have been rammed.
Basically we can expect an escalation in our region that the Arafuras, let alone the Capes, are not equipped to deal with, but do not justify a major fleet unit.
Corvettes will be similar in price and crew to armed OPVs but more capable. They would be an affordable increase in capability, better able to show the flag and provide security in our region.
We can debate that an up gunned OPV or at the other extreme, a patrol or GP frigate would be a better option than a Corvette, but to suggest a full blown FFG or DDG would be better completely misses the point. This is an alternative to OPVs, not to the Hunters.
So then, the corvette option should not interfere with an additional 3 AWD buy then?
As 3 additional AWD were to cover the Hobart's while they were being upgraded and awaiting delivery of the type 26s.
So we could possibly see 12 corvettes and 3 additional Hobart type ships?
Of course the extra Hobart's would be built in Spain, and the Corvettes, (only as Arafura alternatives) built in Australia.
The new Hobart's are problematic, they can't be the same as the first three (in either their original config, or their upgraded form), they can't have extensive commonality with the Hunters, they may effectively be orphans as completed. There are also questions about how much, if any sooner they could be delivered than the Hunters.
Antipode
Member
Wouldn’t something like Al Jubail class corvettes tick some of RAN boxes?
(Source: Navy Recognition)
Arriving at Jeddah (Source: Janes)
Contract for five units was signed in 2018, USD 2000 million for the lot + five years maintance and support. Figures dance from source to source, but aprox
104m and 2500/3000t
92+10 complement, rations for 21 days
4.500 nautic miles at 18 knots, max speed 27 knots
Leonardo SR 76mm gun, 16 VLS, 35mm Millennium CIWS, two 12,7mm automated machine gun stations, two triple 324mm torpedo launchers, two cuadruple Harpoon launchers (NSM would be for RAN I guess).
They are made at Navantia’s San Fernando shipyard. One in service, one delivered, two on the water, one still dry.
www.navyrecognition.com
Salud
(Source: Navy Recognition)
Arriving at Jeddah (Source: Janes)
Contract for five units was signed in 2018, USD 2000 million for the lot + five years maintance and support. Figures dance from source to source, but aprox
104m and 2500/3000t
92+10 complement, rations for 21 days
4.500 nautic miles at 18 knots, max speed 27 knots
Leonardo SR 76mm gun, 16 VLS, 35mm Millennium CIWS, two 12,7mm automated machine gun stations, two triple 324mm torpedo launchers, two cuadruple Harpoon launchers (NSM would be for RAN I guess).
They are made at Navantia’s San Fernando shipyard. One in service, one delivered, two on the water, one still dry.
Saudi Navy commissions Al Jubail class corvette Al Diriyah built by Na
According to a tweet published by Navantia on July 26, 2022, the Royal Saudi Navy has commissioned the second Al Jubail class corvette Al Diriyah in San Fe
www.navyrecognition.com
Salud
Spot on
Range isn't enough. They require a 6,000 nm range because Australia covers a very large area. Its EEZ alone is ne of the largest in the world and then factor in distances to the Pacific Islands that the vessels would have to cover. Also the wave climate in the Pacific Ocean is different to anything that the Arabian gulf sees. Around the bottom of Australia and Tasmania there are huge seas and high winds with monotonous regularity. If the RAN decided to send their corvettes further south to into the Furious Fifties they would be facing 10m seas with 15 - 20+m outliers. So any ship has to be built for Southern Ocean conditions. The Southern Ocean can generally be defined as the waters below 50°S. Between 35°S - 50°S there isn't all that much landmass apart from South America, bottom part of South Africa, bits of Australia and all of NZ to break up the predominant westerly winds, creating the largest fetch in the world for wave generation.Wouldn’t something like Al Jubail class corvettes tick some of RAN boxes?
View attachment 49742
(Source: Navy Recognition)
View attachment 49744
Arriving at Jeddah (Source: Janes)
Contract for five units was signed in 2018, USD 2000 million for the lot + five years maintance and support. Figures dance from source to source, but aprox
104m and 2500/3000t
92+10 complement, rations for 21 days
4.500 nautic miles at 18 knots, max speed 27 knots
Leonardo SR 76mm gun, 16 VLS, 35mm Millennium CIWS, two 12,7mm automated machine gun stations, two triple 324mm torpedo launchers, two cuadruple Harpoon launchers (NSM would be for RAN I guess).
They are made at Navantia’s San Fernando shipyard. One in service, one delivered, two on the water, one still dry.
Saudi Navy commissions Al Jubail class corvette Al Diriyah built by Na
According to a tweet published by Navantia on July 26, 2022, the Royal Saudi Navy has commissioned the second Al Jubail class corvette Al Diriyah in San Fe
Salud
Not an alternative, I get that, but it's being marketed by Marle's as a measure we can take while we are waiting for the Hunters and while the Hobart's are being upgraded.
Basically, we will be down to the 8 Anzac and 1 or 2 Hobart's, with only about 5 Anzac available at any one time, 2 Collins available and maybe a Hobart.
The corvettes are being planned to fill that gap, AND do the job of the Arafuras.
Yep I get the challenge of satisfying the broad and various tasking assigned to the RAN.
Its a big ask!!!
Certainly we find ourselves with limited surface fleet options for the immediate years ahead.
At the end of the day
Whatever gives us increased capacity over and above what is outlined in the 2020 Force structure plan will be a timely bonus to capability.
We wait to see what that looks like.
Cheers S.
Ps - Trust your enjoying Bali
Long held the view the RAN needs a couple [ Two ] appropriate ships for the southern Ocean.
Correct they will not look like the OPV's / Corvettes in the current conversation.
But they will be big and robust for the challenges and distance required to do the job.
Helicopter / flight deck and hanger.
Large multi mission bays for "stuff" with accommodation for additional numbers of personnel when needed.
Constabulary ships with commensurate weapon / sensor fit out but with margin for growth.
A promising NZ / RAN joint project.
Cheers S