Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Anthony_B_78]

You can't compare the manning requirements for the Burkes versus the Hunter because the USN and RAN operate their ships differently. Damage Control is it's own speciality in the USN, not so in the RAN.

@Sierra Mike

Welcome to the site. You need to justify your statement that DC is not a ‘speciality’ of the RAN. DG is an important part of the operations of the RAN (as it is with most competent maritime powers) and its effectiveness relies on more than just crew numbers for all Navy’s.

Looking forward to your response.

Alexsa

Not sure you're reading him properly.

He didn't say damage control is not regarded as important in the RAN; he said that in the USN they have sailors whose job is specifically damage control (a quick Google confirmed that), while our navy doesn't have that, apparently. The inference is that this helps to drive up the size of USN crews, relatively speaking. I don't know if this is true, but I could appreciate that in a behemoth organisation like the USN you could have more people employed in specific roles rather than being multiskilled. Where I would question his point is to ask why is it then that in USN ship classes that we've operated in Australia (Perths and Adelaides), have the crews been of a similar size to those employed by the USN? Or have they?

@Anthony_B_78 Ahem @alexsa is more than qualified to comment on that. He has spent the vast majority of his adult life as a seagoing branch officer in the RAN. In his various capacities he has had far more than passing acquaintances with the USN.

Ngatimozart.

 

[Morgo]

I think it is conditions, specially on board that affect most personnel requirements in developed world.

I think the improvement of the crew area played a big role for the Constellation class for example. (just look for the difference between a Burke III vs what you are going to get with the T26.



If the requirements are so "low" just plunder human capital from chinese adversary navies. I bet you could get tons of Koreans/Indians/Japanese/Europeans for the salary you are already offering.

Makes sense.

One more reason not to go down the corvette path? Even if they had the endurance I’m not sure how much fun being aboard for a long cruise would be.

 

[Sierra Mike]

Not sure you're reading him properly.

He didn't say damage control is not regarded as important in the RAN; he said that in the USN they have sailors whose job is specifically damage control (a quick Google confirmed that), while our navy doesn't have that, apparently. The inference is that this helps to drive up the size of USN crews, relatively speaking. I don't know if this is true, but I could appreciate that in a behemoth organisation like the USN you could have more people employed in specific roles rather than being multiskilled. Where I would question his point is to ask why is it then that in USN ship classes that we've operated in Australia (Perths and Adelaides), have the crews been of a similar size to those employed by the USN? Or have they?

thanks Anthony...

@alexsa - this was exactly the point I was trying to get across... USN approach to DC as it's own speciality whereas RAN creates DC parties from within the technical branches... inherently USN crew numbers are larger as a result as their manning requirements are different...

 

[Todjaeger]

You can't compare the manning requirements for the Burkes versus the Hunter because the USN and RAN operate their ships differently. Damage Control is it's own speciality in the USN, not so in the RAN.

@Sierra Mike

Welcome to the site. You need to justify your statement that DC is not a ‘speciality’ of the RAN. DG is an important part of the operations of the RAN (as it is with most competent maritime powers) and its effectiveness relies on more than just crew numbers for all Navy’s.

Looking forward to your response.

Alexsa

Not sure you're reading him properly.

He didn't say damage control is not regarded as important in the RAN; he said that in the USN they have sailors whose job is specifically damage control (a quick Google confirmed that), while our navy doesn't have that, apparently. The inference is that this helps to drive up the size of USN crews, relatively speaking. I don't know if this is true, but I could appreciate that in a behemoth organisation like the USN you could have more people employed in specific roles rather than being multiskilled. Where I would question his point is to ask why is it then that in USN ship classes that we've operated in Australia (Perths and Adelaides), have the crews been of a similar size to those employed by the USN? Or have they?

The USN would run their vessels (the Charles F. Adams-class DDG and Oliver Hazard Perry-class FFG) with larger crews. IIRC the USN OHP frigate would have ~six extra crew vs. a RAN Adelaide-class FFG crew after accounting for officers and embarked helicopter crews and support. The difference between a USN CFA and a RAN Perth-class are a bit more noticeable with a RAN crew of 311 vs. 330 enlisted aboard a USN destroyer.

Also, it is my understanding that non-DC personnel are also trained for DC in the USN, but might not have that as an assigned role or post aboard a vessel.

 

[Anthony_B_78]

The USN would run their vessels (the Charles F. Adams-class DDG and Oliver Hazard Perry-class FFG) with larger crews. IIRC the USN OHP frigate would have ~six extra crew vs. a RAN Adelaide-class FFG crew after accounting for officers and embarked helicopter crews and support. The difference between a USN CFA and a RAN Perth-class are a bit more noticeable with a RAN crew of 311 vs. 330 enlisted aboard a USN destroyer.

Also, it is my understanding that non-DC personnel are also trained for DC in the USN, but might not have that as an assigned role or post aboard a vessel.

Thanks. That would seem to be enough to make a significant difference.

This focus on the people is an important discussion that often gets overlooked. Somewhat tongue in cheek I wonder if we could almost say amateurs talk platforms, professionals talk personnel. For Australia, it is a huge issue. I'm fairly sure we'd find a larger share of our defence budget - compared to practically everyone else - is spent on wages per serviceman/woman. That's also symptomatic of the wider economy. Practically every industry is screaming about being short of people. What do we do about it? That's the really big question.

 

[John Fedup]

The total estimated spend on Defence personnel in FY23 is $14.2bn per the Budget papers. Assuming an average tax rate of 20 cents on the dollar, that would return $2.8bn in tax revenue back to then CoA.

This is simplistic but it’d be that sort of ballpark.

As an aside, given we look to be heading into a recession I would expect ADF recruitment and retention to be substantially better in the coming years even if no remuneration settings are changed. We’re in the hottest labour market ever and so we shouldn’t be basing long term decisions on current conditions, as they won’t last.

The key point was the gradually increasing tax break with the length of service thus enhancing the retention rate. The lure of a booming economy would be countered by losing the tax break should a member decide to leave the military.

 

[icelord]

AB pay is currently from $66K to well over $100K; POs from 84-111, and LEUTs 96-150. Not a lot in the average civvy street will approach those kind of figures for equivalent experience. Plus $13K at least of seagoing allowance if at sea.

"Thats what Service allowance is for"
Perhaps the easiest way to say we pay you 10k a year to work whatever hours we feel like

At the end of my 6yrs, i was AB with Tier 2 seagoing. My pay was about 108k year. Now being in Darwin on Patrol boats, we had seperate tier to Major sailors. I was also on the lower pay grades as non-technical sailor.

Start adding in
Rental allowance (Darwin being up to $250 a week)
Full health care ($150-180 mth for similar coverage)
Tax credits for being in different areas (Christmas Island)
Full rent paid when at sea beyond 21 days till return to home port (Essentially, you sail for 3mths and they pay your rent that period as your not at home, only if you live alone off base)
Not spending any money while at sea excluding ships Canteen for chocolate or soft drinks (Can be tab and paid upon return to port)

This like most jobs would be part of a package, which put me up to overall $120-130k. Now your pay never decreases (might lose a pay under Defence Discipline Act)

Longer you remain at sea, more it goes up. A change was made 5yrs ago where Tier 1 seagoing was reduced by about 30%. This was to encourage sailors to remain at sea longer to go up in pay, in amount of $10k after 3yrs at sea. Of note, seagoing is for posting to seagoing vessel, every other country that has seagoing allowance, pays for when the ships at sea only, this includes RN, RCN and RNZN. If your ships under maintenance for a year and you remain posted to it, you still get seagoing, so winning

The downside for seagoing is you go to sea alot, well i enjoyed that part as work was easier at sea then ashore and you got into a good rhythm. You would also save good money while at sea cause...where you going to spend it all? After a good 6-8wk patrol, you could return home with 3 pay packets in your pocket. Pay all bills in one and generally the next bills, and rest went to the good people of Wisdoms and Monsoons bars in Darwin

Over the last few years, retention bonuses have been thrown into this with $20k for 2 extras years of service, paid in 3 instalments or all at once. With Middle East deployments being extra $125 per day and your entire pay tax free, theres opportunities for alot of money.

People fail to realise the Australian Defence Force is the highest paid military in the world. While the countries wages are strong, the ADF hasnt been hampered. Yes you will get more money in the Civie market but thats normal.

 

[DDG38]

@alexsa - this was exactly the point I was trying to get across... USN approach to DC as it's own speciality whereas RAN creates DC parties from within the technical branches... inherently USN crew numbers are larger as a result as their manning requirements are different...

Incorrect, RAN ship DC parties are formed from all ship's company, everyone is trained be able to respond to DC emergencies, not just the technical branches.

 

[Jason_DBF]

AB pay is currently from $66K to well over $100K; POs from 84-111, and LEUTs 96-150. Not a lot in the average civvy street will approach those kind of figures for equivalent experience. Plus $13K at least of seagoing allowance if at sea.

These figures are incorrect.

 

[swerve]

Incorrect, RAN ship DC parties are formed from all ship's company, everyone is trained be able to respond to DC emergencies, not just the technical branches.

Same in the RN, I think. My cousin the ex-RN cook was assigned to damage control when needed, & he used his RN training to get a job in fire safety: better pay than cooking. Still a good cook, though.

 

[vonnoobie]

These figures are incorrect.

Bit of advice rather then a one liner if claiming fiqures are wrong then you should also post what you either A. believe or be the correct figures or B. The correct figures with a source to back it up. Same should applyto any post you make, if stating something as a fact or disagreeing back it up.

 

[Jason_DBF]

Bit of advice rather then a one liner if claiming fiqures are wrong then you should also post what you either A. believe or be the correct figures or B. The correct figures with a source to back it up. Same should applyto any post you make, if stating something as a fact or disagreeing back it up.

Maybe the original poster should have provided the correct information himself.

 

[spoz]

Which is where I got them from; there are no sailor categories (or officer specialisations) in group one other than a few trainees. (Personally I was an officer group 8.) They are incorrect in that I believe there has been a pay increase since then, that is why I left the figures rounded. And, my lowest level was an AB ie a fully trained sailor, I left out the SMN. Similarly a LEUT is a useful officer - I may have met a useful SBLT, somewhere……For the purpose of the discussion at the time, however, copying the complete list didn’t seem either necessary or advisable and those rounded figures were good enough.

 

[Redlands18]

Defence forms Naval Shipbuilding Group - Australian Defence Magazine
Defence has announced the formation of Naval Shipbuilding Group (NSSG) to oversee Australian naval shipbuilding and sustainment. Formerly this group was part of CASG and will remain closely aligned to CASG.

 

[TScott]

AB pay is currently from $66K to well over $100K; POs from 84-111, and LEUTs 96-150. Not a lot in the average civvy street will approach those kind of figures for equivalent experience. Plus $13K at least of seagoing allowance if at sea.

You are kidding right?

I have 15 x 1st year carpentry apprentices straight out of school on $85k-$100k a year at the moment. That's on full wages, holiday pay, portable long service leave, portable sick leave, income protection and a fortnightly RDO's with 10-15% fixed annual pay rises for their first 4 years.

Our 4th years are on around $115k-$125k with the above benefits.

This is their base wage only and is excluding all overtime. Most yearly OT averages out as a minimum of +20%.

It's not unusual for one of my apprentice carpenters to earn $150k a year on a particularly large infrastructure/defence/health project with large programme demands.

That is what the defence force is competing with....

I saw a sign on the side of the road, for required workers for a hand car wash offering $40/hr the other day.

Large high profile Australian manufacturers have had 50-60 open positions for 12-18 months and are resigned to not filling them at the moment.

 

[old faithful]

Unqualified Prison officers are earning +$200k per yr in the NT with over time, also, 15 paid sick days, 7 weeks annual leave and 4 months long service leave. Roster 13 days rostered on of a 28 day roster, 12 hour shifts.
Lots of ex defence, probably +60%

 

[Volkodav]

Senior engineers (as opposed to engineering managers) in defence working for CASG and NSSG are on less thank $100k, many less than $90k, quite a few on less than $80k. Senior paraprofessionals are on less.

I wonder why they are having difficulty attracting and retaining people. Why there is so much churn, why there are so many contractors on more than twice as much. Why so many projects are falling behind and having issues.

Could it possibly be the lack of investment in people is a root cause for many problems?

 

[76mmGuns]

Unqualified Prison officers are earning +$200k per yr in the NT with over time, also, 15 paid sick days, 7 weeks annual leave and 4 months long service leave. Roster 13 days rostered on of a 28 day roster, 12 hour shifts.
Lots of ex defence, probably +60%

My Singaporean friend's friend, who is singaporean until migrating to Aust, worked as a prison officer in the country. I thought it was odd, given how white collar and non physical their upbringing tends to be compared to western countries. I didn't know the pay though. That explains it. Only recently quit the job, was there at least 2-3 years. Nice sum, if he and his wife were budgeting well.

 

[old faithful]

My Singaporean friend's friend, who is singaporean until migrating to Aust, worked as a prison officer in the country. I thought it was odd, given how white collar and non physical their upbringing tends to be compared to western countries. I didn't know the pay though. That explains it. Only recently quit the job, was there at least 2-3 years. Nice sum, if he and his wife were budgeting well.

$200k plus means doing OT when you are on days off. Most do $150k easy without breaking sweat, and still having plenty of time off, while still accumulating annual leave. Keep in mind, it's a negative work place, surrounded by idiots, and that's including management and beurocrats!
But if you can keep a positive outlook, and leave work at work, no worries! I'm typing this in Bali, still have 9 weeks annual leave in the kitty and 4 month LSL yet to use.....kaching!

 

[DDG38]

Meanwhile, HMAS Perth ship's company had a fund raising drive for Children's Brain Cancer and had a swimex afterwards. #lifeatsea
"HMAS Perth’s crew finished their ‘Walk the Plank’ fundraising event for Childhood Brain Cancer research with a swim exercise in the Pacific Ocean." Image Source : ADF Image Library