Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Meriv]

Going the Arab way?
You got the cash you can find tons of International professionals easily. Just like you wrote about navantia professionals.

By the time the T26 will be in service they will be citizens (I don't know your citizenship rules, for us is 20years of residence).

 

[old faithful]

Regarding crewing and retention of ADF personnel.
There is an easy way to give ADF personnel a huge pay rise without giving them a pay rise.
Huge TAX breaks for members.
In increments.
The longer they serve, the bigger the tax breaks, provided they continue to be effective and keep progressing.
I'm no accountant, but surely a hundred and something thousand Australians getting big tax breaks would be a drop in the ocean regarding revenue loss.
Just a thought....shoot me down now lol.

 

[John Fedup]

Regarding crewing and retention of ADF personnel.
There is an easy way to give ADF personnel a huge pay rise without giving them a pay rise.
Huge TAX breaks for members.
In increments.
The longer they serve, the bigger the tax breaks, provided they continue to be effective and keep progressing.
I'm no accountant, but surely a hundred and something thousand Australians getting big tax breaks would be a drop in the ocean regarding revenue loss.
Just a thought....shoot me down now lol.

IMO, a great idea……hopefully pollies don’t apply this idea to themselves.

 

[Morgo]

IMO, a great idea……hopefully pollies don’t apply this idea to themselves.

The total estimated spend on Defence personnel in FY23 is $14.2bn per the Budget papers. Assuming an average tax rate of 20 cents on the dollar, that would return $2.8bn in tax revenue back to then CoA.

This is simplistic but it’d be that sort of ballpark.

As an aside, given we look to be heading into a recession I would expect ADF recruitment and retention to be substantially better in the coming years even if no remuneration settings are changed. We’re in the hottest labour market ever and so we shouldn’t be basing long term decisions on current conditions, as they won’t last.

 

[StingrayOZ]

By the time the T26 will be in service they will be citizens (I don't know your citizenship rules, for us is 20years of residence).

For Australia its more like 4 years if that is what you want to do. Eligible visa, 4 years (mostly in Australia, some holiday trips etc allowed)you can apply for citizenship. Australia is a major migrant destination. We usually have around 250,000 skill migrants migrating to Australia.

For ADF military transfers, 5 years in a compatible force, and currently serving and less than 48 years old.

However, and as previously discussed, the F100 is not only mature as a design, but is over aged. Any new build might look like a Hobart, and will certainly have the limitations of a Hobart hull, but its equipment fit will be very different due to the unavailability of equipment which, for the originals, was ordered 15 years ago, and at what was effectively the end of the production life of some of them.

Does sea4000p6 involve the replacement of these older systems? Supporting material capability of the hobarts (CN40)? I recall reading that electrical distribution, data, mechanical services, generation would be looked at as part of the upgrades. Possibly why the upgrade at $5+ billion is so expensive (?).

The design was significantly updated for the American ffg(X) bid. From ladders, access hatch sizes, corridors, damage control, power generation, growth margins, stability, power distribution, stores, fuel bunkerage, weapon handling and storage, length etc. I've heard the changes are more significant that between Burke Flight II and flight III.

Any new builds I assume (again no details from anywhere) would be of this type. The revisions made it a much, much better ship. With out of the box Aegis 9 or 10, Spy 6, latest engines, latest subsystems. Very different ship to HMAS Hobart hitting the water in 2015. That probably undermines the idea that they are the same proven class of ship, but I guess that is more likely what would happen.

The time between Cristal Colon hitting the water and Hobart was 5 years.
The time between the existing Hobart and any Flight II Hobart's hitting the water(2029?) would be similar to the time difference between Hobart and the original Alvaro de Bazan (~15 years).

Even if the Hobart was a complete new design and new everything. After ~15-20 years it would have aged out as well.

We could have updated Hobart. We chose not to. Batch buying and delays made this decision silly.. Now we are spending $5billion.

 

[Volkodav]

Regarding crewing and retention of ADF personnel.
There is an easy way to give ADF personnel a huge pay rise without giving them a pay rise.
Huge TAX breaks for members.
In increments.
The longer they serve, the bigger the tax breaks, provided they continue to be effective and keep progressing.
I'm no accountant, but surely a hundred and something thousand Australians getting big tax breaks would be a drop in the ocean regarding revenue loss.
Just a thought....shoot me down now lol.

Even easier than that, something that's simple, effective and saves money, something that has already started, removing excessive compliance.

For years government has been subjecting APS and defence members to excessive reporting, arduous request processes etc. for even the simplest, least expensive entitlements that are meant to be part of their packages. Even just getting expenses paid, i.e. your money you spent as part of doing your job, is a major embuggerance.

It pisses people off and creates a bureaucratic barrier that costs more than it saves, take an excessive amount of time to complete and process, produces useless data that no-one has the time to read and creates pitfalls that can see honest people being penalised for inadvertent errors.

Treat people like adults, and don't make them jump through hoops to get the entitlements that are meant to be part of their job (a job that incidentally, pays less than market rates to start with).

 

[MARKMILES77]

Australia to commence manufacture of 127mm Naval ammunition.
Interesting that that may also include long range guided ammunition types.

NIOA, Diehl unveil naval ammunition partnership

Established in 1973, NIOA has grown to become Australia's largest privately-owned supplier of small arms to the commercial, law enforcement and military markets.

defence.nioa.com.au

 

[MARKMILES77]

Presumably referring to Vulcano?

Ammunition | Diehl Defence | Diehl Defence

www.diehl.com

 

[seaspear]

An interesting article that suggests some further development in the use of uncrewed technology
British warships in ‘game-changing’ NATO experiment (ukdefencejournal.org.uk)
Certainly the R.A.N is pursuing this a question might be is will this capability able to address issues from limited numbers of manned platforms
Royal Australian Navy commences Exercise Autonomous Warrior 2022 (naval-technology.com)

 

[old faithful]

The total estimated spend on Defence personnel in FY23 is $14.2bn per the Budget papers. Assuming an average tax rate of 20 cents on the dollar, that would return $2.8bn in tax revenue back to then CoA.

This is simplistic but it’d be that sort of ballpark.

As an aside, given we look to be heading into a recession I would expect ADF recruitment and retention to be substantially better in the coming years even if no remuneration settings are changed. We’re in the hottest labour market ever and so we shouldn’t be basing long term decisions on current conditions, as they won’t last.

2.8 bn in revenue would be 100% tax free wages.
I'm suggesting incremental cuts based on service time. Starting after say 4 years....incentives to stay on.

 

[spoz]

Australia has been manufacturing 5 inch for more than 50 years..

Phase 6 is not replacing main engines, or CP propellers, or steering motors, or.

 

[Bob53]

2.8 bn in revenue would be 100% tax free wages.
I'm suggesting incremental cuts based on service time. Starting after say 4 years....incentives to stay on.

I like the idea. The issue in Australia is everyone who misses out then puts their hand out so other departments then say we are discriminated against because we identify as Salamanders….. but its a great suggestion. Something like 4-7 years 25%, 7-10, 50%, 10+ 0% tax.

 

[Morgo]

I like the idea. The issue in Australia is everyone who misses out then puts their hand out so other departments then say we are discriminated against because we identify as Salamanders….. but its a great suggestion. Something like 4-7 years 25%, 7-10, 50%, 10+ 0% tax.

I'm sympathetic to the idea. But why not just pay people market rates? Isn't that simpler rather than all of the admin mucking about?

Also if you structured it as "0% tax" you would get people with other sources of income joining, and staying in, the ADF for the completely wrong reasons which would make the culture cactus.

 

[Redlands18]

I'm sympathetic to the idea. But why not just pay people market rates? Isn't that simpler rather than all of the admin mucking about?

Also if you structured it as "0% tax" you would get people with other sources of income joining, and staying in, the ADF for the completely wrong reasons which would make the culture cactus.

They would still be paying 2nd income Tax on any other income and would still have to do a Tax return.

 

[kato]

The German approach is to use tenders. That would be another option I guess.

Using the K-130 Braunschweig-class corvette as an example (which the Sa'ar 6 was based off) a transit from FBW to Singapore at 15 kts would consume a significant portion of the onboard fuel (over half) and take ~7.4 days at sea. Those days at sea would be a problem since the vessel has a seven day endurance unless there was RAS, an accompanying tender, or a port call to refuel and re-provision en route.

The present tenders in the German Navy, while used in conjunction with the K130 squadron, are considered far too small for this particular job, and thus of very limited use in fully supporting corvettes of this size. Their actual use with K130s is limited to acting as a forward mobile supply base based out of a port in the area and shuttling supplies from that port to one or two corvettes patrolling in theater.

The German tenders are currently planned to be replaced by 10,000-ton small AORs with significantly larger supply/support capacity to cover a small group of corvettes for a longer period, the ability to support/accompany singular combat ships on global-reaching deployment and the ability to operate as patrol and auxiliary vessels on their own in forward areas (e.g. Mediterranean).

 

[Morgo]

They would still be paying 2nd income Tax on any other income and would still have to do a Tax return.

So best to just pay proper wages?

 

[spoz]

AB pay is currently from $66K to well over $100K; POs from 84-111, and LEUTs 96-150. Not a lot in the average civvy street will approach those kind of figures for equivalent experience. Plus $13K at least of seagoing allowance if at sea.

 

[Morgo]

AB pay is currently from $66K to well over $100K; POs from 84-111, and LEUTs 96-150. Not a lot in the average civvy street will approach those kind of figures for equivalent experience. Plus $13K at least of seagoing allowance if at sea.

Those are decent wages, and comparable with the junior to mid ranks of many professions. It doesn't seem like pay is the issue, so presumably conditions are the bigger challenge?

 

[Meriv90]

I think it is conditions, specially on board that affect most personnel requirements in developed world.

I think the improvement of the crew area played a big role for the Constellation class for example. (just look for the difference between a Burke III vs what you are going to get with the T26.

For Australia its more like 4 years if that is what you want to do. Eligible visa, 4 years (mostly in Australia, some holiday trips etc allowed)you can apply for citizenship. Australia is a major migrant destination. We usually have around 250,000 skill migrants migrating to Australia.

For ADF military transfers, 5 years in a compatible force, and currently serving and less than 48 years old.

If the requirements are so "low" just plunder human capital from chinese adversary navies. I bet you could get tons of Koreans/Indians/Japanese/Europeans for the salary you are already offering.

 

[Sierra Mike]

I think it is conditions, specially on board that affect most personnel requirements in developed world.

I think the improvement of the crew area played a big role for the Constellation class for example. (just look for the difference between a Burke III vs what you are going to get with the T26.



If the requirements are so "low" just plunder human capital from chinese adversary navies. I bet you could get tons of Koreans/Indians/Japanese/Europeans for the salary you are already offering.

You can't compare the manning requirements for the Burkes versus the Hunter because the USN and RAN operate their ships differently. Damage Control is it's own speciality in the USN, not so in the RAN.

@Sierra Mike

Welcome to the site. You need to justify your statement that DC is not a ‘speciality’ of the RAN. DG is an important part of the operations of the RAN (as it is with most competent maritime powers) and its effectiveness relies on more than just crew numbers for all Navy’s.

Looking forward to your response.

Alexsa