The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The talk on here of what the possible conclusions to this war are is somewhat very premature because neither side has given any indication that it is willing to retreat from it's current diplomatic positions. Ukraine will not (rightly) cede any territory to Russia; and Russia will not be swayed from it's goals. By rights Russia should be forced to withdraw to the pre 2014 borders, whether it likes it or not because in this case it is the aggressor no mater what spurious claims have been put forward. Sorry @Feanor Russia has no legal or moral claims for its actions against Ukraine whatsoever. There are other ways to have dealt with any perceived problems. It chose not to go down that path, but chose the path of war instead.

Next both sides are reaching a point where their human forces are growing tired. For Ukraine that is a serious problem because they don't have a major reserve that they can utilise. Meanwhile Putin has caused his own problems because of his domestic framing of the war and he's painted himself into a real corner because of it. The Russian forces are facing the same human problems as the Ukrainians, however they do have an excess of human capital that they could access but for their political master's brilliant framing of the war for domestic political purposes. Since in his infinite wisdom he deemed it a "Special Military Operation" he has denied himself the ability to put Russia and its economy on a war footing, so he can't enable universal conscription, without a major political backdown; admitting he stuffed up and the war, ahem Special Military Operation, isn't going as planned.

The next problem is the fracturing of the European / NATO commitment and that may have already started with the recent Macron / Scholz call to Putin. Such calls didn't work before and they just play into Putin's hands. Putin isn't interested in reaching any agreement until all of his conditions are met. He plays on the lack of European unity which is the norm rather than a rarity. According to Angela Merkel the only language Putin understands is deterrence and that he's attacking everything that western liberal democracy stands for. She said that Ukraine is a very different country to what it was seven years ago because now it's much more of a stable democracy which is why Putin sees it as such a threat. She said that after dealing with Putin for 16 years "... it has become clear that we haven't effectively been able to put an end to the Cold War and there has always been the issue of Russia." She also explained why she was against Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO in the 2000s, and Ukraine again in 2014.

So there's a lot that has to happen before we can look at any possible outcomes after the shooting stops. At the moment anything is pure supposition without any real evidence to support claims. It's a case of wait and see at the moment.
 
By rights Russia should be forced to withdraw to the pre 2014 borders, whether it likes it or not because in this case it is the aggressor no mater what spurious claims have been put forward. S
I may be wrong but I think peace treaties are almost never based on rights but on power. I am from Spain, what rights did the US have in 1898 to annex Cuba, Puerto Rico and Guam? They just had the power to take them from us and they did.

Ukraine should try to enter in negotiations with the maximum leverage and power it can amass, it is to be known if that moment will be in the future or if that moment has already passed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

STURM

Well-Known Member
The talk on here of what the possible conclusions to this war are is somewhat very premature because neither side has given any indication that it is willing to retreat from it's current diplomatic positions. Ukraine will not (rightly) cede any territory to Russia; and Russia will not be swayed from it's goals.
Maybe but we may reach a point where either side may shift its political objectives/aims simply because it realises that it can sustain things militarily any longer.

By rights Russia should be forced to withdraw to the pre 2014 borders
No doubt but we don't live in a perfect world and whether we like it or not both sides will have to make concessions which would inevitably lead to Russia retaining some of what it seized by force. Either that or we have a 'fragile' peace with a high probability of another round of hostilities at some point in the future.

The next problem is the fracturing of the European / NATO commitment and that may have already started with the recent Macron / Scholz call to Putin.
For the time being I feel the Europeans will stay united. The question is what happens if things drag on indefinitely with both sides unable to gain a clear advantage or if things suddenly start to get worse for the Ukrainians?

It's a case of wait and see at the moment.
It is indeed but whilst we're fixated with the current conflict and how it will eventually play out on the battlefield; we also have to give some thought to what comes after because that's just as important and is a matter of great concern.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Interestingly this article suggests some seriousness about the investigations of war crimes in the Ukraine
EU supports ICC investigation Russian war crimes in Ukraine (europa.eu)
It is of course undeniable that the war has not effected the economy of Europe
How has Europe’s economy been affected by Russia’s war in Ukraine? | Euronews
This Austrian chancellor suggested that there needed to be a further realignment with the U.S and peace is not a given because of recent events
Last Wakeup Call for Europe | Institute of European Studies (berkeley.edu)
I think you mean "It is of course undeniable that the war has not affected the economy of Europe"
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I may be wrong but I think peace treaties are almost never based on rights but on power. I am from Spain, what rights did the US have in 1898 to annex Cuba, Puerto Rico and Guam? They just had the power to take them from us and they did.
That was more than 100 years ago -- one could also go further back in time, and find even worse examples and use those to justify future horrendous crimes.

Or we can try to evolve our societies. I vote for the latter. However to make it work it becomes essential that those countries who prefer a rules based system that we assist countries like Ukraine when they are being invaded (unprovoked), raped and murdered by a larger neighbor.

I prefer a rules based international order not one governed by "the law of the jungle". The current system is not perfect (neither is democracy) but it's way better than any alternative, and I believe it's therefore better to work to improve and strengthen the rules based system.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Maybe but we may reach a point where either side may shift its political objectives/aims simply because it realises that it can sustain things militarily any longer.
Russia already shifted their aims quite a lot since February 24. Currently their plan is not to grab the whole of Ukraine. This happened because of strong Ukranian resistance together with support from Western countries. The West should work hard to provide as much assistance as possible. France and Germany are not being as helpful as they could in this respect. They have a lot to learn from Poland and the Baltics. Even Sweden and Finland are providing massive amounts of assistance. They see the big picture.

No doubt but we don't live in a perfect world and whether we like it or not both sides will have to make concessions which would inevitably lead to Russia retaining some of what it seized by force. Either that or we have a 'fragile' peace with a high probability of another round of hostilities at some point in the future.
Why is that "inevitable"? Too soon to tell. Also, why would e.g. kicking Russia completely out of Ukraine lead to a "'fragile' peace with a high probability of another round of hostilities"? I don't see that as a given. Making concession to Russia is a bad idea unless one is absolutely forced to. As Lenin said: "You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw". This is the Russian way of thinking. They will keep pushing until they meet steel. Presenting them with steel is the only way to stop them. Making concessions is not stopping anything from happening in the future.

For the time being I feel the Europeans will stay united. The question is what happens if things drag on indefinitely with both sides unable to gain a clear advantage or if things suddenly start to get worse for the Ukrainians?
As long as Ukraine wants to fight and ask for support, several countries will keep supporting them. The latest war in Afghanistan lasted for 20 years before the US decided it was enough and pulled out. Hopefully Russia will draw their own conclusions much before 20 years have passed and pull out. You seem to argue that Ukraine and the West should make a deal with Russia. Why? I would say it's up to Ukraine to decide their own future. If they want to fight for 20 years like Taliban did, then I would fully support the Ukrainians in their fight and I hope most Western countries will do the same, and keep providing military and humanitarian support. No reason to give anything than defeat to Russia. A Russian defeat would also be in the interest of "the West". It would send a strong signal to China, and perhaps make China think twice about trying a similar adventure. Ukraine tried "making a deal" with Russia in the past and look how that worked out.

It is indeed but whilst we're fixated with the current conflict and how it will eventually play out on the battlefield; we also have to give some thought to what comes after because that's just as important and is a matter of great concern.
One can speculate, but there are too many variables. Most people (including you) tend to make some assumptions about what you think will happen (or perhaps what you hope will happen) and then make some arguments around that. The most important thing is to try to avoid Russia using their WMDs. The second most important thing is to help Ukraine as much as possible both by providing aid, but also weaken Russian through sanctions since this makes it harder for Russia to sustain the war long term.
 
Last edited:

STURM

Well-Known Member
Also, why would e.g. kicking Russia completely out of Ukraine lead to a "'fragile' peace with a high probability of another round of hostilities"? I don't see that as a given. Making concession to Russia is a bad idea unless one is absolutely forced to.
What's also a "bad idea" is to have a fragile peace with various things undetermined; laying the precise conditions for yet another war. It's simply cloud cuckoo gagaland delusional thinking to suggest that no concessions will be needed. As much as many would hope that the Russians would retreat to their borders; give up all they've taken, including the Crimea; replace Putin with a liberal democrat eager to ingratiate his country with the West and adopt all those fine Western values like human rights, press freedom, etc, this is as likely as the Central African Republic deciding to raise a combined arms tank corps.

Making concessions is not stopping anything from happening in the future.
No and nobody indicated otherwise but in real world diplomacy and realpolitik there is such as thing as "concessions" or tradeoffs to enable a commonly agreed deal to be reached in order for peace to be achieved.
We don't live in a ideal world; in an ideal world there would be Russian delegations in Kiev and Brussels suing for peace; begging for sanctions to be lifted and for their army to be allowed to withdraw unmolested.

The latest war in Afghanistan lasted for 20 years before the US decided it was enough and pulled out.
Apple's to oranges comparison. It was a different war; one with less effect on the world at large; one on a much smaller scale, etc. It also involved far less players.

You seem to argue that Ukraine and the West should make a deal with Russia.
Even the Ukrainians have acknowledged that peace talks will at some point be needed; yet you would suggest otherwise? Also if indeed a peace deal was reached and the Ukraine acquired a armed neutrality status; surely it would need the West and not Mongolia or Bhutan to provide security guarantees; so yes the West would have to be involved.

would say it's up to Ukraine to decide their own future. If they want to fight for 20 years like Taliban did
Firstly, it is indeed up to them and as I've indicated in the past some form of concessions/compromises will have to be made by both parties. Secondly, I also question whether the Ukraine's Western backers will object if the Ukrainians make too much concessions or concessions that the West feels should not be made. After all when it's all said and done; not all of the Ukraine's interests will be in line with those of its Western backers and vice versa. The West is supporting the Uhraine because it's in line with its strategic interests. Thirdly, even with near unlimited and long term Western support there is a limit as to how much more the Ukrainians can take.

It would send a strong signal to China, and perhaps make China think twice about trying a similar adventure.
The Chinese will draw the right lessons from this but if they reach a point where they feel they have to invade Taiwan they will. Note that to date the Chinese have not make the Western mistake of invading others and maintaining large numbers of troops on foreign territory. They will draw the right lessons from this and act accordingly.

Ukraine tried "making a deal" with Russia in the past and look how that worked out.
On that basis or logic the Ukraine should just declare that it will never negotiate with Russia until Russia totally withdraws and that it's willing to fight for the next 10,000 years or until the last Ukrainian. Or they should declare that negotiations will never be held as long as Putin is in power.

Most people (including you) tend to make some assumptions about what you think will happen (or perhaps what you hope will happen) and then make some arguments around that.
Do you fall in that "most people" label?

I have no idea what will happen but I know that we have to start thinking of how this ends and what comes after... As for "assumptions" I look at various angles/possibilities and some of what I mention are based on points mentioned; in various links I post here; by speakers who may not be infallible but tend to know what to they're on about.

The most important thing is to try to avoid Russia using their WMDs.
The "most important thing" is to ensure the fighting stays in the Ukraine and doesn't spread elsewhere. WW1 and WW2 started off as European conflicts and rapidly spread around the globe. If nukes start flying and places like Bergen, Calais and Rostov are wiped out; the fallout spreads to the rest of us in other places worldwide. The possibility of nukes being used is not far fetched.
 
Last edited:

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
What's also a "bad idea" is to have a fragile peace with various things undetermined; laying the precise conditions for yet another war. It's simply cloud cuckoo gagaland delusional thinking to suggest that no concessions will be needed. As much as many would hope that the Russians would retreat to their borders; give up all they've taken, including the Crimea; replace Putin with a liberal democrat eager to ingratiate his country with the West and adopt all those fine Western values like human rights, press freedom, etc, this is as likely as the Central African Republic deciding to raise a combined arms tank corps.
You did not quite read what I wrote: one should not make concessions to Russia unless one is absolutely forced to.

I was not saying concessions would not be needed. Of course realistically Ukraine in the end (being the weaker part) has to make some concessions, but I would recommend not until it's necessary to do so, and no more concessions that what is strictly needed.

It will be difficult to put an end to this conflict with an agreement, since Russia has time and time again demonstrated that they cannot be trusted. This is one of the reasons why it is important to weaken Russia so much that the threat from Russia is strongly reduced for quite some time to come. Ukraine cannot be safe until either Russia changes fundamentally; or Ukraine obtain nukes (which they already gave up voluntarily based on empty promises from Russia); or Ukraine becomes a member of NATO.

Why do you think the level-headed and highly rational Finns and Swedes have changed their security policies so rapidly and are now so eager to get into NATO?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
You did not quite read what I wrote: one should not make concessions to Russia unless one is absolutely forced
There is a profound difference between not agreeing with what you said and "not reading what you said".''

To spell it out in simple terms; despite not wanting to and despite all the rhetoric; as part of any peace deal the Ukranians will have no choice but to make concessions; unless Russia is totally defeated and is suing for peace. The Ukrainians will also have to continue living next to Russia.

I would recommend not until it's necessary to do so, and no more concessions that what is strictly needed.
It's as obvious as saying the sun will rise tomorrow or that we should never paedophiles but yes it will be necessary for both sides to make concessions in order for common agreement to reached.

This is one of the reasons why it is important to weaken Russia so much that the threat from Russia is strongly reduced for quite some time to come.
In theory but in reality a weakened Russia might be a more dangerous one.

Post WW1 the intention was to weaken Germany for the same reasons you mentioned about Russia. That lead to a weaken and unstable Germany which created the conditions which led to the NSDAP coming to power.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Post WW1 the intention was to weaken Germany for the same reasons you mentioned about Russia. That lead to a weaken and unstable Germany which created the conditions which led to the NSDAP coming to power.
I disagree -- Germany was even weaker after WW2 than after WW1. Still WW2 did not lead to a weakened and unstable Germany after the war.

The main difference between the two was what happened after the wars, not during the wars. After WW2 (after Germany had been completely defeated and was very weak) the Marshal plan was launched, causing a rebuilding of Europe including (Western) Germany. Since then Western Germany has been rich, stable and democratic. Now also Eastern Germany has become part of a rich and stable Germany.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I was not saying concessions would not be needed. Of course realistically Ukraine in the end (being the weaker part) has to make some concessions, but I would recommend not until it's necessary to do so, and no more concessions that what is strictly needed.
Ukraine has already done a fantastic job against all odds to prevent Russia from achieving their strategic goal of regime change and dismembering the country. He/Ukraine has already "won". But that came at a massive cost. If Zelensky's numbers on the losses per day (60 - 1000) are believable, they cannot keep this up against an entrenched force.

So it is not an "if it is necessary", it is inevitable. The question is in what shape it will take. Practically, anything short of going back to the pre Feb 2022 borders will not be acceptable. I don't see for example, Mariupol/Kherson in Russian hands as something the public can accept.

It will be difficult to put an end to this conflict with an agreement, since Russia has time and time again demonstrated that they cannot be trusted.
Interests/threats trumps trust/values in such negotiations. If Ukraine and NATO can demonstrate the ability to respond effectively in the future, it doesn't matter whether Russia is trustworthy or not. You have the ability to defend your position and you don' need to "trust" the other guy to keep their end of the bargain/deal.
 
Last edited:

STURM

Well-Known Member
I disagree -- Germany was even weaker after WW2 than after WW1. Still WW2 did not lead to a weakened and unstable Germany after the war.
My turn to disagree now. Look at the facts. Germany after WW2 was occupied and [as you said] was the beneficiary of the Marshall Pan; it had a stable and functioning government; first an Allied occupation one then a German one; which was able to put the country on the road to recovery.

Germany after WW1 was by itself and was ruled by various weak governments; was in a much weaker and unstable state than after WW2. It had weak political institutions; a very weak economy and no outside help; a population that was divided, etc.

As it stands the notion that a weakened Russia will be less of a threat is an assumption - in a previous post you mentioned - ''Most people (including you) tend to make some assumptions about what you think will happen (or perhaps what you hope will happen) and then make some arguments around that ''. A weakened Russian might be an instable and more dangerous Russia...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The talk on here of what the possible conclusions to this war are is somewhat very premature because neither side has given any indication that it is willing to retreat from it's current diplomatic positions. Ukraine will not (rightly) cede any territory to Russia; and Russia will not be swayed from it's goals. By rights Russia should be forced to withdraw to the pre 2014 borders, whether it likes it or not because in this case it is the aggressor no mater what spurious claims have been put forward. Sorry @Feanor Russia has no legal or moral claims for its actions against Ukraine whatsoever. There are other ways to have dealt with any perceived problems. It chose not to go down that path, but chose the path of war instead.
No legal or moral claims for its current actions against Ukraine. In my opinion the annexation of Crimea is morally justified and legally a gray area.

Next both sides are reaching a point where their human forces are growing tired. For Ukraine that is a serious problem because they don't have a major reserve that they can utilise. Meanwhile Putin has caused his own problems because of his domestic framing of the war and he's painted himself into a real corner because of it. The Russian forces are facing the same human problems as the Ukrainians, however they do have an excess of human capital that they could access but for their political master's brilliant framing of the war for domestic political purposes. Since in his infinite wisdom he deemed it a "Special Military Operation" he has denied himself the ability to put Russia and its economy on a war footing, so he can't enable universal conscription, without a major political backdown; admitting he stuffed up and the war, ahem Special Military Operation, isn't going as planned.
This isn't stupidity. It's necessity. Putin didn't cause his domestic problems by framing the war this way. He had to frame the war this way due to existing domestic problems. It's a painful lesson learned from the Chechen wars. Russia can't rely on conscripts. The Soviet Union in Afghanistan could, though even that came at a cost. But modern day Russia simply can't. It creates too many internal issues. This is why we see widespread use of Russian irregulars, Russian mercenaries, and conscripted rebels. Here it actually really helps to not have the LDNR be part of Russia. LDNR conscripts can be sent into battle with horrific casualties, and it doesn't really affect Russia internally.

It raises a separate question of why conscript staffing is even maitained, and does Russia really need a military of this size (I think the Serdyukov-era end state of ~650 000 troops in ~40 line brigades and support assets was plenty). But that discussion goes beyond the scope of this thread.

The next problem is the fracturing of the European / NATO commitment and that may have already started with the recent Macron / Scholz call to Putin. Such calls didn't work before and they just play into Putin's hands. Putin isn't interested in reaching any agreement until all of his conditions are met.
We have already seen military reality change what those conditions are. They may well change again, though at this point they appear to be very much in line with current military realities.

He plays on the lack of European unity which is the norm rather than a rarity. According to Angela Merkel the only language Putin understands is deterrence and that he's attacking everything that western liberal democracy stands for. She said that Ukraine is a very different country to what it was seven years ago because now it's much more of a stable democracy which is why Putin sees it as such a threat. She said that after dealing with Putin for 16 years "... it has become clear that we haven't effectively been able to put an end to the Cold War and there has always been the issue of Russia." She also explained why she was against Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO in the 2000s, and Ukraine again in 2014.
I don't think Ukraine is more of a stable democracy now then it was 7 years ago. Stable yes, democracy no. I think there was an opening in the 90s and 2000s for Russia to join to rest of Europe, and I think on some level both Putin and Merkel genuinely wanted that. It didn't happen for various reasons, big ones include Russian perceived interests and threats, though there are others. With hindsight it's easy to claim that Putin was always this threat. But this was far from obvious at the time, and I suspect far from true. Putin himself has changed and so has the nature of his regime. It's hard to be certain but I suspect Merkel's statements have more to do with this then with an objective analytical assessment. She is a politician after all.
 

Black Jack Shellac

Active Member

I thought these gentlemen had a pretty good analysis of what has occurred and where things appear to be going from here. I thought their comments about the Russians not losing the air war, and that the Russians are just following their doctrine were pertinent.

The other item I picked up on was a comment at the end about NATO supplies to Ukraine, and how Ukraine is losing equipment much faster than NATO is supplying it, and unless NATO picks up the pace, Ukraine is going to be in big trouble.

I will now return to lurking.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
France and Germany are not being as helpful as they could in this respect. They have a lot to learn from Poland and the Baltics. Even Sweden and Finland are providing massive amounts of assistance. They see the big picture.
It's not as simplistic as having 'a lot to learn' and seeing the 'big picture'... France and Germany have different political dynamics at play.

I thought their comments about the Russians not losing the air war, and that the Russians are just following their doctrine were pertinent.
Thanks for the link. Will definitely have a look. The air war I think is pretty much a stalemate; albeit in which Russia has an edge. On doctrine I was under the impression that a lot of the problems the Russians faced was caused by not following doctrine; partly due to political misconceptions and assumptions by the political leadership. If they had followed doctrine and were expecting determined resistance surely the Russians would have conducted better planning; had adequate logistics and units would have performed combined arms tactics; as prescribed in Russian doctrine.
 
Last edited:

STURM

Well-Known Member
A lot has been mentioned about the various types of Western supplied gear gifted to the Ukrainians but much less about the medium to long term sustainment issues the Ukrainians will or are already facing having this hodgepodge of gear.


'Sustained combat takes a toll not just on the people who fight but also on the equipment used. The barrels on artillery pieces get worn out after several thousand rounds, lose their accuracy and need to be replaced. The tracks on armoured vehicles need regular maintenance. Damaged vehicles can be fixed but this takes time and manpower. Russia’s troops have to deal with poor maintenance but Ukraine’s maintenance and repair crews now struggle to fix a variety of unfamiliar foreign systems for which there are few spare parts. Damaged tanks, vehicles and artillery have to be redrawn from vital sectors while they are being repaired by the few Ukrainian staff that are able to fix and turn them back into effective weapons.'

From the onset of this war we kept hearing about Russian losses. The Ukrainians had/have the advantage of a large military and a large pool of available manpower; fully mobilised. They've also done a great job of not only dominating the information war but also keeping their casualties under wraps. The Russians in contrast have had their casualties widely documented and can't bring in conscripts unless they declare this a full fledged war and not a ''special operation' . Nonetheless the Ukrainians have suffered high casualties and as this drags on it will have a large effect on their ability to continue effectively resisting the Russians.

'Russia’s casualties are heavy but at roughly 100 Ukrainian military deaths along with 400 to 500 wounded per day Ukraine is starting to lose some of its best soldiers as the country’s forces are caught up in a meat grinder that shows little sign of slowing down.'
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

I already heard this for sometime on Russian and Pro Russian media and online sources. However since this come from on of UK mainstream media, saying it is quoting Western Inteligence sources, then I do believe it is something that based on (since similar situation coming from both opposite sources).

I do still think the report on Ukraine being outgunned especially on long range artilery and MLRS will be used to gain more support for justification on more supply for longer range artilery and MLRS from the West.

However the significant disparity of POW held by Ukraine and Russia clearly shown better picture on what's going on in the ground. Zelensky can talk much on getting all Azovstall prisoners back, but it will be empty talk.

He wants to prosecute Russian POW on Bucha, did he expect Russian will not do same thing to Azov Batalions for Mariupol ? The West might call Russian trial for Azov batallions as sham, but Russian already not cares with West opinions. It is their domestics and non western (especially non western allies) world as target audiences.

One thing I'm agree with Independent assesment. Russian with much larger POW will used them as leverage toward Ukraine internal politics. By insistance with one on one trade of POW, they know they have leverage on that.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Putin has praised Peter the Great and says that he has the same task as Peter the great had of reclaiming lands lost to Russia. Hailing Peter the Great, Putin draws parallel with mission to 'return' Russian lands | Reuters I think that Putin has visions of grandeur and it's somewhat of great leap to place himself in the same league as Peter the Great because Peter was more than just a conqueror. He was also a thinker and a builder and I think this comment from the article is quite apt: " "Putin likes leaders he sees as tough, strong managers," said Andrei Kolesnikov, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He wants to be seen as a Peter [the Great]-style moderniser, even though he will go down in history as a cruel ruler more like Ivan the Terrible," he added. "
No legal or moral claims for its current actions against Ukraine. In my opinion the annexation of Crimea is morally justified and legally a gray area.
It has no legal or moral claims for its 2014 actions either. A moral justification doesn't make it a legal one though even though I think that it would be a difficult matter to adjudicate after Stalin deport the Crimean Tartars after WW2 to the gulags and other localities in the east, replacing them with Russians.
This isn't stupidity. It's necessity. Putin didn't cause his domestic problems by framing the war this way. He had to frame the war this way due to existing domestic problems. It's a painful lesson learned from the Chechen wars. Russia can't rely on conscripts. The Soviet Union in Afghanistan could, though even that came at a cost. But modern day Russia simply can't. It creates too many internal issues. This is why we see widespread use of Russian irregulars, Russian mercenaries, and conscripted rebels. Here it actually really helps to not have the LDNR be part of Russia. LDNR conscripts can be sent into battle with horrific casualties, and it doesn't really affect Russia internally.
Well the rebels are a problem because under international law they aren't a recognised military force so don't have the rights of authorised combatants. They can be classified as terrorists, but no one has yet done that. They have just sentenced three POW foreigners serving in the Ukrainian military to death as mercenaries. Ukraine war: Britons Aiden Aslin and Shaun Pinner sentenced to death - BBC News That is illegal because all three are legitimate POWs and the court is not recognised internationally. There is absolutely no excuse for this. But then after all they have rebelled against their own government so why should they respect the rule of law.
It raises a separate question of why conscript staffing is even maintained, and does Russia really need a military of this size (I think the Serdyukov-era end state of ~650 000 troops in ~40 line brigades and support assets was plenty). But that discussion goes beyond the scope of this thread.

We have already seen military reality change what those conditions are. They may well change again, though at this point they appear to be very much in line with current military realities.

I don't think Ukraine is more of a stable democracy now then it was 7 years ago. Stable yes, democracy no. I think there was an opening in the 90s and 2000s for Russia to join to rest of Europe, and I think on some level both Putin and Merkel genuinely wanted that. It didn't happen for various reasons, big ones include Russian perceived interests and threats, though there are others. With hindsight it's easy to claim that Putin was always this threat. But this was far from obvious at the time, and I suspect far from true. Putin himself has changed and so has the nature of his regime. It's hard to be certain but I suspect Merkel's statements have more to do with this then with an objective analytical assessment. She is a politician after all.
I agree that Ukraine was more stable and yes it was also more democratic, but not to the level of other European nations such as Georgia or Romania. That would've taken time. Putin's invasion has changed all of that. He destabilised the country in 2014 because his puppet / lackey got turfed out and rightly so too. The Maiden Revolution had to happen in order to begin freeing Ukraine from Russian interference and domination. Russia has to learn that it's period of imperial expansion and domination of its neighbours is over.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I think there was an opening in the 90s and 2000s for Russia to join to rest of Europe, and I think on some level both Putin and Merkel genuinely wanted that. It didn't happen for various reasons, big ones include Russian perceived interests and threats, though there are others. With hindsight it's easy to claim that Putin was always this threat. But this was far from obvious at the time, and I suspect far from true.
I think this is true, but I suspect that 'Russia to join to rest of Europe' has different meanings to Europe and to Russia, even back then. Putin/Russia expects to be first among equals, befitting power with nuclear weapons and a massive army. Europe/Schröder/Merkel/Chirac probably did not understand that, and I suspect their personal relationships with Putin might have clouded their expectations.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think this is true, but I suspect that 'Russia to join to rest of Europe' has different meanings to Europe and to Russia, even back then. Putin/Russia expects to be first among equals, befitting power with nuclear weapons and a massive army. Europe/Schröder/Merkel/Chirac probably did not understand that, and I suspect their personal relationships with Putin might have clouded their expectations.
I think Putin had options and made choices that set him and Russia down this path. I think certain situations and certain behaviors from the west didn't help, and had much to do with why he made those choices. But he had choices.
 
Top