NZDF General discussion thread

ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It appears that NZ status as a neutral country no longer applies. An interview with R Adm Jim Gilmore RNZN CJF NZDF. He speaks to the deployment to Europe which leaves tomorrow.


An interview last night with Wayne Mapp, a former DEFMIN on why he believes the NZ government has changed its mind on providing lethal aid to Ukraine.


Interview with previous DEFMIN Ron Mark on the NZDF deployment to Europe. He thinks that the deployment will be expanded with the Defence Legal Team and maybe the Disaster Identification Team being deployed as well to help with war crimes investigation.


There's a good point being raised by these interviews is that we are deploying capabilities that are sorely needed: airlift, logistics and intelligence analysts both on the ground in Europe and back here. The Hercules and logistics team will be helping move needed gear to staging areas in Poland, whilst the intelligence teams are analysing and providing intelligence directly to the Ukrainians. The team in NZ is working overnight Ukrainian time so that the Ukrainians are having uptodate info.
 
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OldTex

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Having read the article I get the impression that Matt Robson is upset that his political legacy is being consigned to the dustbin of history during his lifetime.
Most defence members of democratic countries willing defend the right of citizens to have an opinion. What the citizens (and many politicians) sometimes forget is that it does not mean that anyone else has to agree with or even embrace it.
 
spoz

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The west is depending on what, one Kiwi C-130 to enable resupply of the Ukrainians? Really? If it is to generate a sort of”coalition of the willing” view I can understand it - but the amount of practical difference it is likely to make would seem to approach zero!
 
Nighthawk.NZ

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
spoz said:
The west is depending on what, one Kiwi C-130 to enable resupply of the Ukrainians? Really? If it is to generate a sort of”coalition of the willing” view I can understand it - but the amount of practical difference it is likely to make would seem to approach zero!
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Where did they say the are depending on "one Kiwi C-130" it was more as you say ”coalition of the willing” that they are there to help where they can to also help co-ordinate all the logistics ... I never heard them say they are depending on the herc...
 
G

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
spoz said:
The west is depending on what, one Kiwi C-130 to enable resupply of the Ukrainians? Really? If it is to generate a sort of”coalition of the willing” view I can understand it - but the amount of practical difference it is likely to make would seem to approach zero!
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This deployment, like many similar, are as much about showing where we stand. Remember too that the C130 is only one cog of our contribution.... once you factor in some $$$ for weaponry and add in the intelligence & logistics personnel (the latter will work with more than just our aircraft) and almost certainly some further deployments of specialist teams and it starts to look like a nice well-rounded statement we're making. If this was happening closer to home it would be understandable to provide a much more substantial contribution... and remember there's a lot of much bigger countries in the world that I suspect aren't making tangible contributions. Also given the PRC's tacit acceptance of what Russia is doing it is timely (re: Solomon Islands deal) to be making a clear statement of where we stand on the world stage.
 
Stuart M

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
spoz said:
The west is depending on what, one Kiwi C-130 to enable resupply of the Ukrainians? Really? If it is to generate a sort of”coalition of the willing” view I can understand it - but the amount of practical difference it is likely to make would seem to approach zero!
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If the NZ contribution works out as a Company of Ukrainian soldiers pulling off a successful ambush, a bus load of refugees making it out of their shelled village alive or some exhausted squaddies simply getting a hot feed when they might only have got some cold rations, then I'd say it's worth it, practical difference be damned.
 
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
The media article author, is "left of left" (or "far-left") on the spectrum and is proudly so, his heritage includes being a member of the then Socialist Action League in the late 60's/70's (a Trotskyite group), amongst others, and for decades has been critical of the West etc. Nothing new for those that follow NZ defence/politics/foreign affairs (and google is your friend if anyone wants to know more).

Surprised he now aligns himself with the centre-left mainstream Labour Party, in fact very poor form of Stuff though for not acknowledging he was actually an MP for the Alliance Party (left or far-left, certainly not centrist or centre-left). Twenty years ago the Alliance Party (then in coalition with Labour) split apart because Alliance leader Jim Anderton supported the Labour Govt deploying the NZDF to Afghanistan under various UNSC mandates. The media article author was of course on the side (within the Alliance Party) that did not support the then Govt's defence deployment to Afghanistan (including the Provincial Reconstruction Team, which provided security to the minority Hazaras and NGO's)!

(Actually there is another surprise in the article which is he doesn't praise Putin and his "de-nazifying efforts")? o_O
 
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Ooops seemed to have killed off debate? Actually to be fair to the media article author (Matt Robson) I recall he was a fairly competent Minister and held various roles (Minister of Corrections & Minister of Courts amongst others, he had a legal background) and worked hard, fronted the media and clearly explained his thinking on issues (possibly the current lot in charge could take note and learn)!

Anyway back on topic, DefMin Henare tonight is "not ruling out sending Kiwi troops into Ukraine if needed". Say what!

(Did the DefMin pick up some of Aust. DefMin Peter Dutton's tough talking "habits" after meeting him the other week)? ;)

www.newshub.co.nz

Defence Minister doesn't rule out NZDF entering Ukraine

This morning 50 personnel left to help transport military aid to Ukraine.
www.newshub.co.nz www.newshub.co.nz
 
K

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
recce.k1 said:
Ooops seemed to have killed off debate? Actually to be fair to the media article author (Matt Robson) I recall he was a fairly competent Minister and held various roles (Minister of Corrections & Minister of Courts amongst others, he had a legal background) and worked hard, fronted the media and clearly explained his thinking on issues (possibly the current lot in charge could take note and learn)!

Anyway back on topic, DefMin Henare tonight is "not ruling out sending Kiwi troops into Ukraine if needed". Say what!

(Did the DefMin pick up some of Aust. DefMin Peter Dutton's tough talking "habits" after meeting him the other week)? ;)

www.newshub.co.nz

Defence Minister doesn't rule out NZDF entering Ukraine

This morning 50 personnel left to help transport military aid to Ukraine.
www.newshub.co.nz www.newshub.co.nz
Click to expand...
They mentioned it takes 5 days for a Hercules to get there from Nz, why is that? How many stopovers enroute I wonder.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
kiwipatriot69 said:
They mentioned it takes 5 days for a Hercules to get there from Nz, why is that? How many stopovers enroute I wonder.
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That's about right from memory. It depends which way it goes to. They aren't the quickest of aircraft and unlike commercial airliners they can't fly at 30,000+ ft where the air is thinner and they can take advantage of that. They have to travel at lower altitudes of about 20,000ft in denser air, are more prone to weather, and are slower. They don't have a toilet either like a commercial airliner, just a bucket on the ramp. No inflight movies and fancy tucker either. It'll be bagged lunches from the mess. Healthy rubbish with no meat pies or sausage rolls included. Sods. You're sitting sideways in webbing seats and no windows. If you're lucky you can stretch your legs out in front of you depending upon the load. I notice that they took a spare prop with them.
recce.k1 said:
Ooops seemed to have killed off debate? Actually to be fair to the media article author (Matt Robson) I recall he was a fairly competent Minister and held various roles (Minister of Corrections & Minister of Courts amongst others, he had a legal background) and worked hard, fronted the media and clearly explained his thinking on issues (possibly the current lot in charge could take note and learn)!
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Didn't have anytime for him at all and still don't. He was one of the cabal that killed the ACF and the frigates. He would've had the army singing kumbaya if he had his way. He hasn't lost his far left edge and sympathy either. I wouldn't be surprised if he has links to the CCP United Front here in NZ. He'd be definitely someone who they would cultivate.
Anyway back on topic, DefMin Henare tonight is "not ruling out sending Kiwi troops into Ukraine if needed". Say what!

(Did the DefMin pick up some of Aust. DefMin Peter Dutton's tough talking "habits" after meeting him the other week)? ;)

www.newshub.co.nz

Defence Minister doesn't rule out NZDF entering Ukraine

This morning 50 personnel left to help transport military aid to Ukraine.
www.newshub.co.nz www.newshub.co.nz
Click to expand...
Yes I saw the Minister's interview on the idiot box and just about spat my juice of the empire all over the floor when he said that. Thought that I had been hit on the head by something and was hearing things. Shocked I was, shocked. Maybe he's channelling his tupuna from a couple of hundred years ago and they've got his blood boiling. I had a look and he didn't have a taiaha, mere, musket, or anything similar on him. That remark will have Robson all fired up now and will give him something to really whinge about :D

I have been following the comments in the media where comments are allowed and on social media which have been quite interesting. from what I can see there isn't a lot of opposition to what the government is doing. You get the occasional one but on the whole most are ok with it. Most are not happy about what's happening in Ukraine and think that we should be helping in some form. I would say that its roughly a 70 - 30 split in favour of lethal aid to Ukraine especially after imagery of the Russian atrocities have surfaced. Alongside that there appears to be more people calling for a far better equipped and staffed NZDF with more frigates and fighter aircraft. So that is changing. What I haven't seen so far is the usual groups like the Auckland Peace Action group coming out and denouncing this, what they would call, warmongering by the government. But it's early days at the moment.
 
Stuart M

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
ngatimozart said:
Snip

Didn't have anytime for him at all and still don't. He was one of the cabal that killed the ACF and the frigates. He would've had the army singing kumbaya if he had his way. He hasn't lost his far left edge and sympathy either. I wouldn't be surprised if he has links to the CCP United Front here in NZ. He'd be definitely someone who they would cultivate.
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Hear he was a Trot at uni.

ngatimozart said:
Yes I saw the Minister's interview on the idiot box and just about spat my juice of the empire all over the floor when he said that. Thought that I had been hit on the head by something and was hearing things. Shocked I was, shocked. Maybe he's channelling his tupuna from a couple of hundred years ago and they've got his blood boiling. I had a look and he didn't have a taiaha, mere, musket, or anything similar on him. That remark will have Robson all fired up now and will give him something to really whinge about :D
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I say we raise a pair of divisions, 4th and 5th Divisions 3NZEF, and go a conquering... just for Matty R.
 
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
ngatimozart said:
Yes I saw the Minister's interview on the idiot box and just about spat my juice of the empire all over the floor when he said that. Thought that I had been hit on the head by something and was hearing things. Shocked I was, shocked. Maybe he's channelling his tupuna from a couple of hundred years ago and they've got his blood boiling. I had a look and he didn't have a taiaha, mere, musket, or anything similar on him. That remark will have Robson all fired up now and will give him something to really whinge about :D
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Suspect DefMin Henare is most concerned about the situation via confidential defence briefings and the wider ramifications.

Which could explain why he went against the official Govt narrative early last week and reportedly sought out the Parliamentary press gallery journos and told them to their astonishment that he actually supported sending Javelin missiles to the Ukraine but that Cabinet didn't support that. Then remarkably, rather than censure the DefMin the NZG, by the end of last week, stated they would now support "lethal aid" and step up intelligence support for NATO etc.

And if I could be bold enough to suggest it out loud, that yes you are probably right, that there could be an element of the DefMin "invoking" the honor of his ancestors (particularly his grandfather who fought in Europe during WW2 and ended up leading the 28th Maori battalion) and stepping up to "lead" into this "new unknown"? These are, as they say, interesting times.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
recce.k1 said:
Hey I thought you were gonna say we repurpose Rocket Labs' launch site to launch ICBM's .... the bonus also being, before you know it, Tasmania will be ours, all ours (cue evil laugh tape recording endless loop)?
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There are things that we don't say in public, OK. The Aussies don't need to know about our weaponised nuclear sheep program.
 
G

Gooey

Well-Known Member
Chaps & Chapesses,

Shock. Horror. A reasonable attempt from RNZ:
www.rnz.co.nz

Hitting the right balance on defence spending

Some countries are increasing their defence budgets as the war in Ukraine rages on. The Detail looks at whether New Zealand needs to follow suit.
www.rnz.co.nz www.rnz.co.nz

Its interesting in the amount of detail covered by MSM but still relatively simplistic.

My main critique is that it doesn't discuss what expenditure and capability that NZ should have after the strategic upheavals over the past few months. Additionally, there is nothing on rebalancing the NZ national security organisation or the impacts of our Anti-Nuclear policy on our alliances with AS & US.
 
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Gooey said:
My main critique is that it doesn't discuss what expenditure and capability that NZ should have after the strategic upheavals over the past few months. Additionally, there is nothing on rebalancing the NZ national security organisation or the impacts of our Anti-Nuclear policy on our alliances with AS & US.
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The "poor" Minister of Finance ... he was probably on trajectory to do as little as possible for defence in next month's budget? And he may very well continue to do so, however, one can now picture a wave of criticism heading towards the Govt from the media and public (and one thing they don't handle well is criticism, even the PM "refuting" (accusations they are doing nothing) won't wash)!
 
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