Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
How can this ship be used for humanitarian support and disaster relief? From the description from 2018 I was thinking part smaller hospital ship, medical support, ability to land support vehicles, water purification and food supply. When not on disaster relief it would sail around the pacific delivering hood will. I don’t see how this ship will fill those roles?
Other than looking weird I think it will be fine in it's role. Perhaps it will have modules or containerised units to add extra functions. It's got a big crane which will be useful, goes down to 3km, we'll be able to drag up he next F35 that investigates the maritime domain. Useful for larger unmanned platforms, too. How long before someone high dives of that helo deck? It's got a moon pool for that late night skinny dipping and if your bored, you can always tow an iceberg. .
What's not to like?
If the alternative was to wait years for an Australian build and pay many times the cost, no thanks. This will be a great general purpose ship.
 

OldNavy63

Active Member
Other than looking weird I think it will be fine in it's role. Perhaps it will have modules or containerised units to add extra functions. It's got a big crane which will be useful, goes down to 3km, we'll be able to drag up he next F35 that investigates the maritime domain. Useful for larger unmanned platforms, too. How long before someone high dives of that helo deck? It's got a moon pool for that late night skinny dipping and if your bored, you can always tow an iceberg. .
What's not to like?
If the alternative was to wait years for an Australian build and pay many times the cost, no thanks. This will be a great general purpose ship.
No wonder the RAN were not bragging about this acquisition and it only became public during a Senate Estimates Committee meeting.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
On page 2 of today's Australian newspaper it was reported by Ben Packham that the Prime Minister is no longer guaranteeing that the SSNs will be built in Adelaide. The article is behind a paywall but the main part states:

"Scott Morrison has left the door open to Australia’s $100bn-plus nuclear submarines being built offshore, saying the “paramount goal” is not to build them in Adelaide but “to ensure we get that capability as soon as we can”. In his joint AUKUS announcement with US President Joe Biden and British Prime Minister Boris Johnson last September, the Prime Minister declared “we intend to build these sub - marines in Adelaide”. But he declined on Tuesday to guarantee the submarines – apart from their nuclear reactors – would be built in Adelaide. “We’re working through all of those issues,” he said. “And that is certainly our intention to maximise all of that. Of course it is. “But it’s also the paramount goal to ensure we get that capability as soon as we can, and it’s in the best form that it can be working with our partners.” The statement is the first by the Prime Minister that contemplates the prospect of the submarines, or some of them, being substantially built outside Adelaide to ensure they arrive faster."


Much as I would love to see all of our major naval vessels built in Australia I think the above statement represents a more realistic approach when it comes to nuclear submarines and that there is real merit in building at least the first of them in the USA or UK.

After spending a sleepless night after reading yesterday's sensationalised, selectively quoted and misleading 'scoop' about the army's Boxer vehicles in the Australian Pacific Defence Reporter (see Australian Army posts) I am a bit reluctant to believe anything I read at the moment but this one seems legit!

Tas
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
On page 2 of today's Australian newspaper it was reported by Ben Packham that the Prime Minister is no longer guaranteeing that the SSNs will be built in Adelaide. The article is behind a paywall but the main part states:

"Scott Morrison has left the door open to Australia’s $100bn-plus nuclear submarines being built offshore, saying the “paramount goal” is not to build them in Adelaide but “to ensure we get that capability as soon as we can”. In his joint AUKUS announcement with US President Joe Biden and British Prime Minister Boris Johnson last September, the Prime Minister declared “we intend to build these sub - marines in Adelaide”. But he declined on Tuesday to guarantee the submarines – apart from their nuclear reactors – would be built in Adelaide. “We’re working through all of those issues,” he said. “And that is certainly our intention to maximise all of that. Of course it is. “But it’s also the paramount goal to ensure we get that capability as soon as we can, and it’s in the best form that it can be working with our partners.” The statement is the first by the Prime Minister that contemplates the prospect of the submarines, or some of them, being substantially built outside Adelaide to ensure they arrive faster."


Much as I would love to see all of our major naval vessels built in Australia I think the above statement represents a more realistic approach when it comes to nuclear submarines and that there is real merit in building at least the first of them in the USA or UK.

After spending a sleepless night after reading yesterday's sensationalised, selectively quoted and misleading 'scoop' about the army's Boxer vehicles in the Australian Pacific Defence Reporter (see Australian Army posts) I am a bit reluctant to believe anything I read at the moment but this one seems legit!

Tas
Should we be so certain that the US is not prepared to transfer 1-2 Virginia's, either Boats in service or brand new off a Hot production Line? Its the easiest way to get SSNs in RAN service quickly. The official line coming out first from Dutton a couple of weeks ago and the 3 leaders this week is everything is being done to get RAN SSNs in service quickly.
Yes I am aware that the US needs new Subs as badly as we do and its probably to late to add more Astutes to the production line.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
On page 2 of today's Australian newspaper it was reported by Ben Packham that the Prime Minister is no longer guaranteeing that the SSNs will be built in Adelaide. The article is behind a paywall but the main part states:

"Scott Morrison has left the door open to Australia’s $100bn-plus nuclear submarines being built offshore, saying the “paramount goal” is not to build them in Adelaide but “to ensure we get that capability as soon as we can”. In his joint AUKUS announcement with US President Joe Biden and British Prime Minister Boris Johnson last September, the Prime Minister declared “we intend to build these sub - marines in Adelaide”. But he declined on Tuesday to guarantee the submarines – apart from their nuclear reactors – would be built in Adelaide. “We’re working through all of those issues,” he said. “And that is certainly our intention to maximise all of that. Of course it is. “But it’s also the paramount goal to ensure we get that capability as soon as we can, and it’s in the best form that it can be working with our partners.” The statement is the first by the Prime Minister that contemplates the prospect of the submarines, or some of them, being substantially built outside Adelaide to ensure they arrive faster."


Much as I would love to see all of our major naval vessels built in Australia I think the above statement represents a more realistic approach when it comes to nuclear submarines and that there is real merit in building at least the first of them in the USA or UK.

After spending a sleepless night after reading yesterday's sensationalised, selectively quoted and misleading 'scoop' about the army's Boxer vehicles in the Australian Pacific Defence Reporter (see Australian Army posts) I am a bit reluctant to believe anything I read at the moment but this one seems legit!

Tas
I was afraid to read that, after being unable to find any new money in the budget to indicate upgrading the ASC site in Adelaide to a nuclear engineering standard necessary to build SSNs would begin before 2025. This suggests the government is walking away from local sub building.

In my view this is regrettable in so many ways, and misunderstands the whole nature of the Sea 1000 project. Local manufacturing of submarines was never about creating jobs or minimising cost. It is about creating the local capability to build and sustain RAN submarines in operation. Without local construction we will not build up the local industry that can supply all the parts so that local maintenance is reliable.

The local industry we have built up through building and sustaining the Collins Class will eventually wither and die as well. How will we maintain operational submarines after that? Submarines wear out with operational use, and need critical components like pumps regularly replaced.

Nuclear submarines are complex. No nation operates them without also building them. Of course the nuclear reactors would need to be built elsewhere, but with the modular construction techniques pioneered by EB on the Virginia Class and also used on the Astute Class, ASC construction of the rest of an Australian nuclear submarine is entirely feasible in my view.

I admit to personal bias on this because I am an Adelaide engineer, not a navy person. I know some engineers who have worked on ASC projects, and this would be an immensely disappointing decision if true, with some people feeling they have wasted years of their lives as a result.

If this gives the RAN a better naval capability sooner I could accept it, but I find that hard to believe. I had thought both the US and UK submarine construction shipyards were fully booked for years, and struggling to meet their own navys' delivery targets. Who will delay their own sub build program to build them for us?

A better compromise in my view would to build the first one or two Australian SSNs 100% offshore (in USA or UK) then build following SSNs in Australia with a gradually increasing local content. That would ensure any naval capability gap was minimised, but local support capability was built over time.

Incidentally both the RN and USN have backlogs on their own SSN and SSBN maintenance exceeding a year. There is no getting around the need for Australia to be able to fully support whatever we buy or build locally.
 
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Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ex-Sirius is now berthed at the AMC at Henderson, WA. Not sure if this is in preparation to a sale or just to clear the berth at Stirling. Cheers.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
It would make sense to build at least the first submarine overseas. Whether the US are willing to sacrifice one of their build spots is debatable. While they may want submarines for themselves it is also strategically to their benefit to see Australia operating Nuclear Boats ASAP.

I don't think the British would necessarily be in a position to offer a boat built in the UK. They simply don't have the capacity the US has.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes I am aware that the US needs new Subs as badly as we do and its probably to late to add more Astutes to the production line.
Excellent, so when does Australia build a new greenfields submarine yard in the the US or UK and start hiring workers in those countries?

The UK has no capability to build a reactor or fuel rods for submarines. The current estimate is 2026 before the builds are finished, although it is hope the reactor construction area will be completed, perhaps later this year. But then they are already backlogged with the Dreadnaught class, so unless the UK is giving up nuclear weapons, this is not happening.

For the US, if you want to use existing yards, be prepared for a fight..
  • Two factors have been the primary causes of delays in the Navy's shipyards: The amount of maintenance that shipyards must perform in each overhaul has increased, and the Navy has not hired enough new workers to keep pace with the workload.
  • Delays affect operational readiness. They have reduced the number of submarines that the Navy can put to sea, idling expensive ships and their skilled crews.
  • CBO's projections of the shipyards' workload and capacity indicate that the submarine fleet's size will exceed the yards' capacity to maintain it, not only over the next several years but in 25 of the next 30 years.
  • More accurate maintenance schedules would enable the Navy to better plan deployments by minimizing the disruptive effects of those delays. Or maintenance delays could be reduced by hiring more workers, sending more submarines to private shipyards for maintenance, or cutting the size of the fleet.
So Australia wants the US to idle more of its fleet and crews to build Australian submarines.. An Australian yard with any spare capacity could help conduct backlogged maintenance work on any UK/US submarines. Which is one of the reasons the US/UK wants Australia in the sub game. There is some self motivation here.

Building nuclear submarines is by far the easiest of the options. Submarines aren't a car, you don't just stop by the car yard and pick them up. It has nothing to do about Australian workers, but the current back log of work overseas.

Scotty can't answer questions because there is no answer to give. It sounds more believable that subs would be built overseas, but in truth that is basically impossible. Not for love, for money, for blood or for bones. For it to happen we would have to build new greenfield ship yards in either the UK or US. We already have a submarine yard in Australia.
 
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Flexson

Active Member
Ex-Sirius is now berthed at the AMC at Henderson, WA. Not sure if this is in preparation to a sale or just to clear the berth at Stirling. Cheers.
Razor blades is her future. Being done at Henderson. The sale to Chile did not go ahead.
I have wondered if Chile will try to secure one of the two Henry J Kaiser's that the US Navy has proposed to retire to replace Araucano since they already operate one ex-USNS Henry J Kaiser. But I doubt it as the two being put forward for decommissioning are single hull with only three of the 16 completed having a double hull.
 

BSKS

New Member
Transferring newly minted SSN's from existing US production lines to an inexperienced operator like the RAN would not enhance overall naval capability of the AUKUS group. In fact it is likely to reduce capability and any additional US built subs are better off staying with the USN.

AUKUS is not an export agreement, it is about technology exchange to support growth of military industrial capability. Australia needs to establish the full sovereign capability by building in Australia and in doing so adding an additional shipyard to overall SSN production.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
I think everyone is reading too much in to this.

This is a pollie, in the lead up to an election, hedging his bets.

He has said he wants to maximise capability, with a secondary goal of maximising Australian industry content.

Sounds pretty sensible while being completely non commital.

Could be 100% onshore ex reactors, could be 100% offshore. Probably somewhere in between. Time will tell.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Razor blades is her future. Being done at Henderson. The sale to Chile did not go ahead.
I have wondered if Chile will try to secure one of the two Henry J Kaiser's that the US Navy has proposed to retire to replace Araucano since they already operate one ex-USNS Henry J Kaiser. But I doubt it as the two being put forward for decommissioning are single hull with only three of the 16 completed having a double hull.
Shame the Chile sale fell through. I can see them reducing Sirius down to the main deck at Henderson but no further, as they couldn't get her out of the water here. They may take her to Whyalla for scrapping like Success was.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
The discussion about the sub build is very robust. But it's going to hundreds of forum pages repeating the same things for 12 months, since there won't be a decision from the Govt for roughly another year, and nothing will change eg specs of UK/US subs, free capacity UK/US, skilled labor. People are just going to make their opinion, then someone will repeat that UK/US has no free capacity, etc etc.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I was afraid to read that, after being unable to find any new money in the budget to indicate upgrading the ASC site in Adelaide to a nuclear engineering standard necessary to build SSNs would begin before 2025. This suggests the government is walking away from local sub building.

In my view this is regrettable in so many ways, and misunderstands the whole nature of the Sea 1000 project. Local manufacturing of submarines was never about creating jobs or minimising cost. It is about creating the local capability to build and sustain RAN submarines in operation. Without local construction we will not build up the local industry that can supply all the parts so that local maintenance is reliable.

The local industry we have built up through building and sustaining the Collins Class will eventually wither and die as well. How will we maintain operational submarines after that? Submarines wear out with operational use, and need critical components like pumps regularly replaced.

Nuclear submarines are complex. No nation operates them without also building them. Of course the nuclear reactors would need to be built elsewhere, but with the modular construction techniques pioneered by EB on the Virginia Class and also used on the Astute Class, ASC construction of the rest of an Australian nuclear submarine is entirely feasible in my view.

I admit to personal bias on this because I am an Adelaide engineer, not a navy person. I know some engineers who have worked on ASC projects, and this would be an immensely disappointing decision if true, with some people feeling they have wasted years of their lives as a result.

If this gives the RAN a better naval capability sooner I could accept it, but I find that hard to believe. I had thought both the US and UK submarine construction shipyards were fully booked for years, and struggling to meet their own navys' delivery targets. Who will delay their own sub build program to build them for us?

A better compromise in my view would to build the first one or two Australian SSNs 100% offshore (in USA or UK) then build following SSNs in Australia with a gradually increasing local content. That would ensure any naval capability gap was minimised, but local support capability was built over time.

Incidentally both the RN and USN have backlogs on their own SSN and SSBN maintenance exceeding a year. There is no getting around the need for Australia to be able to fully support whatever we buy or build locally.
I maybe wrong but in the dusty corridors of my memory I do think that the Indian Navy did lease a Russian SSN at one part.
 

Depot Dog

Active Member

Sub brief video gives opinion on the three locations for the base. His knowledge and insight for nuclear sub operations give some good reasoned views.

Regards DD
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I maybe wrong but in the dusty corridors of my memory I do think that the Indian Navy did lease a Russian SSN at one part.
Twice in fact, a Charlie class from 1988-1992 & an Akula II from 2012 to 2021. Both named Chakra while in Indian service. India has reportably signed a lease for another Akula to start in 2025. Cheers.
 

SMC

Member
Sub brief video gives opinion on the three locations for the base. His knowledge and insight for nuclear sub operations give some good reasoned views.

Regards DD

I just happened to be in the Wollongong area last week for work and had a spare few hours and went for a drive to actually eyeball the Port Kembla site. The area to the south will be a tight squeeze and there are areas that are fully accessible to the public that allows them to look down into the proposed area....not good for security I would think. I could not gain access to the "North Shore" as this is a restricted area not open to the public and by virtue of that fact maybe more favourable of the two.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
I maybe wrong but in the dusty corridors of my memory I do think that the Indian Navy did lease a Russian SSN at one part.
That is true but they then started building them within a few years. So again it was a starter. Also they nearly sank one when they were leasing.

The Chakra suffered an explosion while under Indian operation.
 
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