NZDF General discussion thread

[Redlands18]

This is not totally unexpected but still amazing news all in one. Any chance this is media misreporting? How reliable is the australian on this kind of news?

Australia dumps troubled European-designed Taipan helicopters for US Black Hawks and Seahawks

The Army will follow the Navy's decision to replace its locally produced Airbus MRH-90s with off-the-shelf Sikorsky-manufactured helicopters, in a move expected to cost billions of dollars.

www.abc.net.au

Yes definitely happening, DEFMIN Dutton will announce this morning at Victoria Barracks in Sydney. Opinion pieces on Defence is not great in the Australian but News articles are normally fine, especially on something of this size.

 

[spoz]

A number of manual blade fold kits were purchased with the Australian NH90s; more than the 6 for the Navy allocated aircraft but not enough to equip the full fleet. However, that was 15 years ago and more may have been purchased since with the changes in ADF focus that has occurred over that time.

Overall opinion of the intend changes, at least in RAN circles, is very positive.

 

[ngatimozart]

"The Morrison government will scrap its entire fleet of 47 Taipan army and navy helicopters, replacing them with US Blackhawks and Seahawks at a cost of $7bn". (from 'The Australian', 10 December)

Must be an opportunity here for NZ to (once again!) pick up some surplus Aust aviation assets, like the RAN Skyhawks and Seasprites in decades past. I assume the RAN NH-90s have folding blades and would be compatible with the RNZAF fleet?

If this correct then yes the opportunity does arise of acquiring some. The original NH90 acquisition request was from memory for 12 with a minimum requirement of 10, but the stingy Clark government acquired 8.+ 1 for spares. If we go by that then ideally another 4 + 1 for spares, but I would argue for at least 8 + 1 for spares. We will be acquiring an Enhanced Sealift Vessel Capability before 2030 and that will require extra helos. Also I believe that the RNZN should have at least 6 NH90 to ensure they are able to operate one off Aotearoa and a couple or more off Canterbury. Can't remember if Aotearoa can hangar 1 or 2. In fact I would form a second RNZN naval aviation squadron and possibly acquire some marinised AW109M for them, forming a combined NH90 / AW109M Sqn. Food for thought.

 

[Redlands18]

If this correct then yes the opportunity does arise of acquiring some. The original NH90 acquisition request was from memory for 12 with a minimum requirement of 10, but the stingy Clark government acquired 8.+ 1 for spares. If we go by that then ideally another 4 + 1 for spares, but I would argue for at least 8 + 1 for spares. We will be acquiring an Enhanced Sealift Vessel Capability before 2030 and that will require extra helos. Also I believe that the RNZN should have at least 6 NH90 to ensure they are able to operate one off Aotearoa and a couple or more off Canterbury. Can't remember if Aotearoa can hangar 1 or 2. In fact I would form a second RNZN naval aviation squadron and possibly acquire some marinised AW109M for them, forming a combined NH90 / AW109M Sqn. Food for thought.

I think NZ would get first option and it would be a very competitive price, its in Australia's interest for NZ to have a bigger Utility Helicopter fleet and maybe even a few more stripped for spare parts.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Also I believe that the RNZN should have at least 6 NH90 to ensure they are able to operate one off Aotearoa and a couple or more off Canterbury.

Well Australia will be disposing of its whole collection. Everything must go.
Taipans, Tigers the lot.

While not terrible terrible helicopters, they won't be integrated into Australia's battlespace management and systems. That combined with Australia issues on deployments, spares etc with them failed promises.. Means they have to go for the future to happen.

If NZ made an offer on the C27J they could probably get those as well. Similar issues, may still be very suitable for NZ. Australia has them for HDAR only now.

Australia isn't to worried about making money on the whole deal, if NZ made sounds like they were interested as part of a reinvigorated NZDF I am sure Australia would value them going to a close ally looking to expand its capabilities. In the NZ context, not having integration into the ADF/US battlespace wasn't really something that was going to happen anyway. If NZ was off doing its own thing, around the pacific, they would get a fair bit of mileage out of that.

 

[John Fedup]

Seems to me this could an opportunity for the current NZ government to have a defence PR moment, appease their most important ally, and possibly improve NZ vertical lift capability.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Seems to me this could an opportunity for the current NZ government to have a defence PR moment, appease their most important ally, and possibly improve NZ vertical lift capability.

Not appease. Take advantage.

New Zealanders never want to appease Australia, Australians or their government. Exploit. Exploit Australia. Take advantage of the situation.
Otherwise those Canadians will take em, for nearly nothing, and just push them off into the ocean so they can sell more ottas and Bell 412's..

 

[Lolcake]

What would be a reasonable number for nz to acquire? 8-10? They surely will be looking at the c-27s as well after it was redesignated role wise. That seems to be next on the chopping block.

 

[John Newman]

I think people need to take a breath for a minute or two.

As at today, there has been no final decision on new ADF procurements, that will happen in due course, and even when those decisions are made it will still be many many years before a new capability is introduced, reaches IOC and then FOC.

Which also means that excess equipment is also many many years away from being potentially available.

Anyway, I’m more than happy for NZ to have the opportunity to procure our excess defence equipment, but only at a fair price too.

The NZ Govt are cheap bastards when it comes to financing the NZ Defence Forces, I don’t think we, the Australian taxpayer, should be subsidising NZ procurement.

NZ isn’t exactly a poor country is it??

 

[Shanesworld]

I think people need to take a breath for a minute or two.

As at today, there has been no final decision on new ADF procurements, that will happen in due course, and even when those decisions are made it will still be many many years before a new capability is introduced, reaches IOC and then FOC.

Which also means that excess equipment is also many many years away from being potentially available.

Anyway, I’m more than happy for NZ to have the opportunity to procure our excess defence equipment, but only at a fair price too.

The NZ Govt are cheap bastards when it comes to financing the NZ Defence Forces, I don’t think we, the Australian taxpayer, should be subsidising NZ procurement.

NZ isn’t exactly a poor country is it??

Fair point and respect that. Not sure how that will shake out though.

From what im seeing in nzdf and of ministry i am skeptical we are agile or energetic enough to jump on this.

Also what differences exist between the taipans and the nz nh90's. And should we do the same given the number of customers divesting themselves of nh90's?

 

[Arclighy]

Has there been any official NZ Government interest on getting extra NH90 airframes? On doing a web search, I can't find anything at all that suggests this is the case.

 

[Kiwigov]

Absolutely right, actual replacements would be at least 1-2 years away; though bearing in mind Aust will be getting FMS deals from active US production lines (Blackhawk, Seahawks, and Apaches) and it seems this is a top priority. Interesting aspect from a (simple) diplomatic view is that this will be viewed in France as Aust dumping on their aerospace industry from a great height; perhaps Aust has done rather better at signalling this than they did over the USUKA deal

 

[oldsig127]

I think people need to take a breath for a minute or two.

As at today, there has been no final decision on new ADF procurements, that will happen in due course, and even when those decisions are made it will still be many many years before a new capability is introduced, reaches IOC and then FOC.

I really am getting old. I'm sure I saw Peter Dutton announcing buying up to 40 off the shelf Blackhawks to replace the current 41 Taipans this morning.

Replacement of the RAN airframes was announced yonks back.

(PS, and PM Morrison defending the decision to the press on ABC24)

oldsig.

 

[John Newman]

I really am getting old. I'm sure I saw Peter Dutton announcing buying up to 40 off the shelf Blackhawks to replace the current 41 Taipans this morning.

Replacement of the RAN airframes was announced yonks back.

(PS, and PM Morrison defending the decision to the press on ABC24)

oldsig.

Mate, have a read of Duttons Press Release:

Strengthening Army's helicopter capability | Defence Ministers

The Morrison Government has taken steps to strengthen the Australian Army’s helicopter capability by formally requesting advice from the United States Government on the acquisition of up to 40 UH-60 Black Hawk to potentially replace the MRH90 Taipan helicopter.Minister for Defence the Hon Peter...

www.minister.defence.gov.au

Yes it’s going to happen, but not tomorrow, still various hurdles to be traversed before we see any new Black Hawks delivered here to Aussie soil.

As for the Seahawks, yes there has been the DSCA announcement, but nothing has been said or announced by the Def Min, or an order placed, again various hurdles to be traversed too.

Cheers,

 

[Gracie1234]

I wonder if there is an opportunity to purchase more airframes and remanufacture them into the naval variant as a seasprite replacement? That would absorb a larger number of units.

 

[oldsig127]

Mate, have a read of Duttons Press Release:

Strengthening Army's helicopter capability | Defence Ministers

The Morrison Government has taken steps to strengthen the Australian Army’s helicopter capability by formally requesting advice from the United States Government on the acquisition of up to 40 UH-60 Black Hawk to potentially replace the MRH90 Taipan helicopter.Minister for Defence the Hon Peter...

www.minister.defence.gov.au

Yes it’s going to happen, but not tomorrow, still various hurdles to be traversed before we see any new Black Hawks delivered here to Aussie soil.

As for the Seahawks, yes there has been the DSCA announcement, but nothing has been said or announced by the Def Min, or an order placed, again various hurdles to be traversed too.

Cheers,

Yes I read it, and watched the press conference. There's nothing there suggesting this is something that's not on a fairly fast path by purchasing standards and certainly not "many many years"

oldsig

 

[ngatimozart]

This isn't going to happen overnight and it will take some time for the Blackhawks to bed into the ADF.

I wonder if there is an opportunity to purchase more airframes and remanufacture them into the naval variant as a seasprite replacement? That would absorb a larger number of units.

I don't know if that's a viable option because of time constraints and expense. Also they wouldn't fit into the current Anzac Class frigate hangar. If you read our part time Minister of Defence release linked earlier this week in the thread, whilst he was going on about his new guidance for NZDF, he did mention that tenders for the Seasprite replacement were being evacuated.

 

[Simon Ewing Jarvie]

I will take a positive view of this paper. In short it is saying the way we have viewed and managed defence for the last few decades needs to change. NZ responding to threats is no longer optional, we will not get to choose anymore as the threats are in our backyard. It was good to see who our likely partners are including Indonesia.
We will not receive advanced notice before certain events such as a foreign military base is built or other grey zone activities will occur that will threaten our security. It was good to see red lines drawn in the sand that will be classed as significant threats. I wonder what our response will be? It is a good signal to other countries on what our line in the sand is. What is not acceptable.
As a country, we can expect to need more maritime awareness and presence capabilities and these will need to be at a higher capability level than what we currently have. I would presume increased numbers of patrol vessels and frigates directed by AI fed from air and space surveillance.
We need to invest in capabilities to compete in the grey zone Cyber and Space are weaknesses that will be the first 'attacks' against our country Cyber attacks that are state-led have already occurred.
It was also clear that we need to support others in order to build the credibility and capability to support our ability to respond in our own backyard. Was it just me or did the five eyes grouping just get rephrased as a defence group not just intelligence?
From here i expect we will see a strategy and capabilities assessment that will outline how we will respond and what capabilities do we need to deliver this response.
While these are being worked on the Minister will focus on building infrastructure, replacing the people that have left and improving culture.

Excellent summary. This is probably the best Defence Assessment that has been produced in decades. It is unique in my memory because it breaks the old paradigm of a bland statement of the security environment by MoD and the National Assessments Bureau which is then followed by the highly politicised (read DPMC and Treasury) Defence Review (aka White Paper). This assessment not only describes the strategic environment in reasonably accurate terms but goes on to make policy recommendations. That suggests the Ministry is finding its kahunas. But the gap between words and capabilities is at least a decade even with fair political winds and I don't believe we have that long in terms of regional security.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Which also means that excess equipment is also many many years away from being potentially available.

Have you seen how slow the wheels turn in Wellington?

Anyway, I’m more than happy for NZ to have the opportunity to procure our excess defence equipment, but only at a fair price too.

IMO would be happy it was attractively priced and NZ then committed to keeping that level of capability. It would be a regional win.

The NZ Govt are cheap bastards when it comes to financing the NZ Defence Forces, I don’t think we, the Australian taxpayer, should be subsidising NZ procurement.

We have for decades. Not that the NZers would often see it that way, with the Anzacs more than offset, with everything else they ever got firesale prices were attractively made. NZ is a small country and small countries have lots of issues getting reasonable price acquisitions. If they are still in our region and used by our ally (if NZ is still an ally and still located in the oceanic region, I do wonder sometimes), then its still a win for Australia.

Getting rid of equipment massively early might normally be seen as a huge waste of money. But if it can be billed as helping our poor kiwi cousins then, that is "regional military aid".

We did the same thing with the seasprites..

NZ isn’t exactly a poor country is it??

Your going to trigger me into causing offense. NZ does ok economically, but military spending they are behind the ball, some opportunity stimulus may assist that. Plus, our decision to buy NH90's may have influenced their decision to buy NH90's..

 

[Simon Ewing Jarvie]

Spending on the NZ defence force goes in patterns and right now it has the same profile as the 1990s i.e. huge public debt, disrupted society and a government with its eyes elsewhere. Ironically, the loss of so many personnel will help to offset the onboarding cost, in the minds of Treasury analysts, of the P8 and C130J amongst other things ( capital charge and depreciation plus the usual unexpected cost increases for ancillary aspects). So NZDF will get some opex top-ups and the govt will claim it is supporting defence while actually only stopping it from going under. The Minister's priorities show this from what they don't include...improved mass, lethality and operational sustainability for the NZDF. His priorities are for a cadre force able to do HADR and limited peace support ops in the SW Pacific.