6th Generation Fighters Projects

[Sandhi Yudha]

FCAS, Tempest fighter jet programmes will merge -Italy's air force chief

Tempest and Future Combat Air System (FCAS), two European programmes designed to build new fighter jets, will eventually merge, Italy's Air Force Chief of Staff said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

This is according to the Italy's Air Force Chief of Staff. He gave his prediction on Tuesday (yesterday).

 

[Terran]

Doesn’t seem realistic. Merging of the programs basically results in an augmented version of the Future European Fighter Aircraft consortium with the same problem. That being that France has special needs for its fixed wing fighter program that would demand concessions from the other members.
The only way I think it works is if all the parties basically give cart blanche and seed to Paris for both their Air and Naval forces design and procurement. This is because the French want a Rafael 2.0. FCAS is a Naval based concept built for French Naval Aviation and CATBAR carriers. The French are willing to trade off aspects like range and payload to achieve that.

The Tempest is biased strongly to a ground based mission set with longer range and strike capabilities it’s meant to replace the Typhoon and Tornado for the British. This is two dramatically different schools of aviation. For the British and Italians they don’t need CATBAR they have F35B which they tailored their carriers around. By investing in that the Tempest doesn’t need the naval aspects which leads to the ground bias.
The Spanish are in a trouble spot. They want to have their cake and eat it to. Logically they should and are king at F35B but they joined FCAS and France doesn’t want them buying F35B. Without F35B Spanish Naval carriers fixed wing capabilities end with Harrier. Leading the Spanish in the position of either only using those ships for rotorcraft or having to buy new CATBAR carriers presumptively French designed and built as no other European power uses CATBAR.
The French are leaning on the Spanish not to buy F35B despite it clearly being the only choice to maintain the Spanish Naval Aviation capabilities. Buying F35B is clearly a threat as it might just cause the Spanish to not make a large investment in the FCAS and instead buy Lightnings which would weaken the FCAS program. This scenario is probably better suited to the Spanish needs yet leaves the fifth republic holding the bag.
The results would force France to spend more on the FCAS program or try and milk it’s partners. Germany is fairly miserly on its military spending, it invests what it invests good luck on more besides also lacking a naval aviation fixed wing capabilities Germany could easily hop to Tempest. Leaving France on its own which is Basically the Rafael/Eurofighter programs history. France left without partners has to either fund FCAS to the detriment of other programs or buy from the only other nation who invests in CATBAR the United States of America.

 

[KiwiRob]

There's been talk since 2019 of the Germans funding an aircraft carrier, my presumption is if this were to happen it would be the same design the French will build for there next carrier, being a partner in FCAS it would be natural that this carrier would also use the FCAS not F35B.

Spain has to replace it's F18's the logical choice to replace them is more Typhoons, the are part of the Eurofighter consortium and have a final assembly line for Typhoon. FCAS is still a long way off.

 

[John Fedup]

There's been talk since 2019 of the Germans funding an aircraft carrier, my presumption is if this were to happen it would be the same design the French will build for there next carrier, being a partner in FCAS it would be natural that this carrier would also use the FCAS not F35B.

Spain has to replace it's F18's the logical choice to replace them is more Typhoons, the are part of the Eurofighter consortium and have a final assembly line for Typhoon. FCAS is still a long way off.

There might be German funding assistance for a French navy carrier but I doubt Germany will ever have their own carrier. Even a Euro carrier based on a French design would be a stretch. France’s need for a future naval fighter will be an issue for FCAS.

 

[Terran]

France was and may still be trying to sell Germany on a carrier program. How realistic that is? Doubtful. The last German carrier program failed in the era of the Third Riche. Without an active carrier program the Germans don’t need FCAS or F35B. They need a future Air Force fighter. France needs a naval CATBAR carrier they are trying to get Germany in to help them bankroll their naval carrier modernization. If Germany and or another state bought in a French carrier that would reduce the R&D costs to Paris. If they bought FCAS that drops it more. Hence why France and Germany seem to be talking a lot of joint “European” programs. The hope being to consortium and then lock sales to partners who would pay for the French programs. The more they can force into such a program the better for France regardless of the partner nations sovereign national defense needs.

Typhoon would be fine for the Spanish Airforce but it wouldn’t serve the Spanish Navy. Farther the projected end of life for the Typhoon is about 2045 meaning a roughly 30 year service life for the Spanish investment assuming delivery in the next year. F35 has a life projected out to 2070. With the Spanish Navy having a need to replace the Matador II a hypothetical F35A buy would mean degrees of commonality in training and parts between the Navy and Air Force reducing costs.

 

[John Fedup]

France was and may still be trying to sell Germany on a carrier program. How realistic that is? Doubtful. The last German carrier program failed in the era of the Third Riche. Without an active carrier program the Germans don’t need FCAS or F35B. They need a future Air Force fighter. France needs a naval CATBAR carrier they are trying to get Germany in to help them bankroll their naval carrier modernization. If Germany and or another state bought in a French carrier that would reduce the R&D costs to Paris. If they bought FCAS that drops it more. Hence why France and Germany seem to be talking a lot of joint “European” programs. The hope being to consortium and then lock sales to partners who would pay for the French programs. The more they can force into such a program the better for France regardless of the partner nations sovereign national defense needs.

Typhoon would be fine for the Spanish Airforce but it wouldn’t serve the Spanish Navy. Farther the projected end of life for the Typhoon is about 2045 meaning a roughly 30 year service life for the Spanish investment assuming delivery in the next year. F35 has a life projected out to 2070. With the Spanish Navy having a need to replace the Matador II a hypothetical F35A buy would mean degrees of commonality in training and parts between the Navy and Air Force reducing costs.

Doubt Spain has any interest in a new CATOBAR carrier so it’s F-35B or no naval fast jets. As Spain is a partner in FCAS, can’t see any chance for F-35As even with a naval purchase of F-35Bs. This could change if Germany were to support a naval FCAS and a Euro carrier, which is remote IMHO.

 

[Terran]

yes yet both buys under cut FCAS. The Spanish buy of F35B is needed to maintain the Spanish Navy. Buying Typhoons though causes an issue. As any buy is likely to be delivered late in this or early in the next decade. The problem is by the 2030s 4th Gen looses ground by the 2040s is virtually irrelevant. So fairly new Typhoons are less capable of survival or missions. Despite that these Typhoons would probably be the best ever built.
But both buys would would still mission full the FCAS out as any Typhoon buy would mean that the Spanish Air forces would have to justify a FCAS buy as soon as a decade after Typhoon IOC to the Spanish legislature. Well justfying that they didn’t make a huge mistake and won’t be turning around to make a buy at the next euro super fighter next month.

 

[kato]

Spain has to replace it's F18's the logical choice to replace them is more Typhoons

Actually, one other logical choice would be to group up with Germany on their split F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter Tranche IV buy due to be signed next year as an intermediate (and cheaper) solution with future replacement by FCAS in the 2040s like for Germany.

The Spanish buy of F35B is needed to maintain the Spanish Navy.

If they don't start buying up second-hand Harriers from the USMC instead to keep them operating a few more years, which isn't all that out of the question either. With integration of more current weaponry (in particular Meteor) it'd still be a somewhat viable aircraft for its limited role.

 

[Terran]

If they don't start buying up second-hand Harriers from the USMC instead to keep them operating a few more years, which isn't all that out of the question either. With integration of more current weaponry (in particular Meteor) it'd still be a somewhat viable aircraft for its limited role.

that doesn’t seem a viable option as the USMC bought spare parts from the British to maintain their AV8Bs. Marine corps Harrier 2 are just as old as the Matador II though the USMC has a larger fleet they have been used just as hard. Besides at best that’s an interm solution maybe buys a couple more years but doesn’t solve the long term.

 

[hauritz]

FCAS, Tempest fighter jet programmes will merge -Italy's air force chief

Tempest and Future Combat Air System (FCAS), two European programmes designed to build new fighter jets, will eventually merge, Italy's Air Force Chief of Staff said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

This is according to the Italy's Air Force Chief of Staff. He gave his prediction on Tuesday (yesterday).

There really can't be a merge. Either one of the current programs will be shut down in favour of the other or both programs will be shut down and it will be back to the drawing board.

If one program is to be shut down which will it be? The French led FCAS or the British led Tempest? Can you seriously see either the British or French essentially handing control of the program over to the other?

Option B of a clean skin design may be even worse as it would require a level of cooperation that has never really existed between the British and French.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

There really can't be a merge. Either one of the current programs will be shut down in favour of the other or both programs will be shut down and it will be back to the drawing board.

If one program is to be shut down which will it be? The French led FCAS or the British led Tempest? Can you seriously see either the British or French essentially handing control of the program over to the other?

Option B of a clean skin design may be even worse as it would require a level of cooperation that has never really existed between the British and French.

Well, they created together the Sepecat Jaguar and the Concorde.
But like the other members already said, the biggest problem is that France also needs a CATOBAR-fighter, while nobody else needs that.

 

[KiwiRob]

Actually, one other logical choice would be to group up with Germany on their split F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter Tranche IV buy due to be signed next year as an intermediate (and cheaper) solution with future replacement by FCAS in the 2040s like for Germany.

Why Spain aren't part of the US nuclear sharing agreement, so what would be the point in buying F-18's? Everything they need to do can be done with Eurofighters.

 

[ngatimozart]

There really can't be a merge. Either one of the current programs will be shut down in favour of the other or both programs will be shut down and it will be back to the drawing board.

If one program is to be shut down which will it be? The French led FCAS or the British led Tempest? Can you seriously see either the British or French essentially handing control of the program over to the other?

Option B of a clean skin design may be even worse as it would require a level of cooperation that has never really existed between the British and French.

Why does it to be like that? We all know what the French are like, especially Dassault. It could end up the same way the Eurofighter program did. The French spat the dummy and left to build the Rafale in its three main versions, and everyone else in the consortium built the Typhoon. There is nothing logical to stop a similar occurrence happening in the future with the competing Euro 6th Gen fighters.

 

[ngatimozart]

Why Spain aren't part of the US nuclear sharing agreement, so what would be the point in buying F-18's? Everything they need to do can be done with Eurofighters.

Unless the Spanish are considering the Growler variant. The Typhoon cannot do that or anything near it. Nor can it operate off a carrier - just saying. Maybe @kato will be able to enlighten me, but I did think that I read somewhere that the Germans were considering acquiring the Growler. I could be wrong.

 

[kato]

Maybe @kato will be able to enlighten me, but I did think that I read somewhere that the Germans were considering acquiring the Growler.

Germany is planning to replace its two wings of Tornados in a split buy of 15 Growler (to replace EW capacity), 30 F-18E/F Super Hornet (to replace nuclear strike capacity) and 45 Eurofighter Tranche 4 (to replace the second wing, multirole).

The deal is likely to be signed off with financing in the first half of next year - the just-presented new coalition treaty commits to passing it "at the beginning of the current legislature".

There is nothing logical to stop a similar occurrence happening in the future with the competing Euro 6th Gen fighters.

It's not exactly like the UK hasn't done the same several times in the past. Or Germany for that matter, although that tended to be mostly due to corruption and lobbyism.

Why Spain aren't part of the US nuclear sharing agreement, so what would be the point in buying F-18's? Everything they need to do can be done with Eurofighters.

Ala 15 out of Zaragoza is earmarked for naval strike missions, and the Spanish Air Force retains 20 AGM-84 Harpoon for this specific capability on their F-18s there. There is currently no air-to-sea missile integrated on the Eurofighter. In addition Ala 15 has a nominal specific SEAD/DEAD role for which similarly to Germany Growlers can be an option.

 

[KiwiRob]

Unless the Spanish are considering the Growler variant. The Typhoon cannot do that or anything near it. Nor can it operate off a carrier - just saying. Maybe @kato will be able to enlighten me, but I did think that I read somewhere that the Germans were considering acquiring the Growler. I could be wrong.

The Spanish don't have a carrier that could operate an F18. I've not read anything about them being interested in a Growler either. They need to replace the 20 Hornets in the Canary Islands first then the remaining 70 Hornets later.

Ala 15 out of Zaragoza is earmarked for naval strike missions, and the Spanish Air Force retains 20 AGM-84 Harpoon for this specific capability on their F-18s there. There is currently no air-to-sea missile integrated on the Eurofighter. In addition Ala 15 has a nominal specific SEAD/DEAD role for which similarly to Germany Growlers can be an option.

What's the Marte ER? If that's not an anti ship, air launched anti ship missile cleared for use of the Eurofighter then what is it?

Kongsberg is working to integrate the Naval Strike Missile on the Eurofighter platform, ditto Saab with the RBS15. In theory the Eurofighter can also carry Harpoon. It looks like there will be a number of options to choose from.

Establishing a secure connection ...

Typhoon ECR is the SEAD variant.

 

[kato]

They need to replace the 20 Hornets in the Canary Islands first then the remaining 70 Hornets later.

The Canary Islands replacement is pretty much given to become Eurofighters.

What's the Marte ER? If that's not an anti ship, air launched anti ship missile cleared for use of the Eurofighter then what is it?

Not fully integrated on Eurofighter yet, that's what it is. MBDA has been working on it for almost decade (!) now, and even once they finish that it'll require an actual customer and then again several years before we see Marte ER on any Eurofighter.

Typhoon ECR is the SEAD variant.

Also not in existence... Typhoon ECR was Airbus' paper-only attempt to dissuade Germany from ordering Growlers.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Spanish don't have a carrier that could operate an F18. I've not read anything about them being interested in a Growler either. They need to replace the 20 Hornets in the Canary Islands first then the remaining 70 Hornets later.




What's the Marte ER? If that's not an anti ship, air launched anti ship missile cleared for use of the Eurofighter then what is it?

Kongsberg is working to integrate the Naval Strike Missile on the Eurofighter platform, ditto Saab with the RBS15. In theory the Eurofighter can also carry Harpoon. It looks like there will be a number of options to choose from.

Establishing a secure connection ...

Typhoon ECR is the SEAD variant.

C:REF kato's reply above. Maybe you should do some better research. Key Aero isn't exactly a paragon of reliability. And you don't know everything. None of us do. Remember that in future because a little bit of humility never hurt anyone.

 

[kato]

Tbf, noting: In both cases, yes, they're options.

By the time Spain actually replaces those 70 Hornets there can be a viable offer of Marte-ER on Eurofighter. RBS-15 or Harpoon not so much (that's a purely theoretical "we could also fit" from 5-10 years ago, no one ever worked on it). However this would effectively push Spain into a position of a launch customer and sole user, as well as providing a significantly lowered performance compared to current capability. Marte-ER is primarily a helicopter anti-ship missile after all.

Eurofighter ECR is a theoretical develepment option on the "technological roadmap" according to Airbus ("part of a wider long-term capability development plan"). Yes, Spain could buy that, possibly having to extend Hornet in-service times a bit to bridge until it's ready. However development also will take significant investment, and that's something i don't see anyone in Europe having in the next 4-5 years if other options are available.


As for the actual chances of F-35B in the Spanish Armada and F-35A in the Ejercito del Aire and the rumours claiming interest back in November, i recommend this relatively well-researched article in conservative newspaper La Razon (en espanol) based on information requests to the Spanish government:

La Armada descarta la compra de 25 cazas F-35B y reduce las necesidades a 12 aviones

La Armada descarta la compra de 25 cazas F-35B y reduce las necesidades a 12 aviones

www.larazon.es

It contains the government clarification that

• Spain did submit a non-binding RFI for F-35B last May in order to obtain information on pricing, terms etc
• The number of aircraft to be procured for the Armada would be maximum 12, not 25 (which had been claimed by Jane's)
• The number of aircraft beyond the Canary Islands replacement to be bought for the Ejercito del Aire would be "about 50". An interest in a partial buy of 25 aircraft (posited by Jane's) is called una cifra filtrada sin demasiada base real (a "leaked figure without a real basis") and fuera de lógica ("without logic").
• The Chief of the General Staff of the Ejercito del Aire clarifies the Hornets on the Canary Islands will be replaced by Eurofighters.
• Quote: "The best solution at present is to replace part of the Hornets with Eurofighter de la versión más avanzada (LTE)" (LTE = long-term evolution)
• For the rest of the Hornet replacement either further Eurofighter (LTE) "or another fifth-generation aircraft" is not ruled out, with the article noting that the Ejercito del Aire traditionally runs two combat aircraft types.
• The article does mention at the end that the Jane's rumour about a F-35A buy were likely placed strategically ahead of certain development decisions for FCAS.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Spain's probably long term planning something like 12 F-35B's. That would probably suit them just fine. They don't have a dedicated carrier anymore, and no one is really threatening their territory currently. 12 would keep them in the carrier club, and is pretty close to the number the italian Navy have (air force has similar).

They at least know how much that capability is going to cost. The harriers are going the way of the dodo. AFAIK parts are very hard to get and flight hours are minimal. But they probably aren't in a rush either... They might put in a funded buy for 3-4 aircraft and push further numbers out into the future.

Slowly replacing F-18s with Eurofighter seems believable. Harpoon isn't a magic but still useful weapon, and F-18s can still sling them in that role. Operating the F-18 for maritime strike is going to be doable.

Wouldn't Sea SPEAR or similar be able to fill the maritime strike role on the Eurofighters? While not ideal, would seem to do the job until something better comes along?