Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

Babcock Sells Frigate Design Licence to Indonesia

Aerospace, defense and security company Babcock said it has secured the first export contract for its Arrowhead 140 (AH140) frigate…

www.marinelink.com

It's official, Babcock design will be use by PAL for their two Iver based Frigates Project. The announcement say that the design will be bespoke for PAL/TNI-AL specifications.

It's already rumours and expected that PAL will co-op with Babcock, when Frigates Project for two Iver based Frigates being contracted early last year. Considering OMT as original license holder already work with Babcok for further Projects.

As the bespoke design, perhaps that's where MinDef and PAL also sign German+Turkey design house on doing some 'modification' work. But seems based on this, all the works also involved Babcock.

Another article from Sheppard:

DSEI 2021: Babcock secures first Arrowhead 140 export | Shephard

The deal is the first win for the frigate design developed with the export market in mind.

www.shephardmedia.com

And Babcock official site:

Babcock sells first new frigate design licence to Indonesia

Babcock the aerospace, defence and security company has secured the first export contract for its Arrowhead 140 (AH140) frigate through a design licence agreement with PT PAL Indonesia (Persero), a state-owned enterprise that builds and maintains ships for military and commercial use from its...

www.babcockinternational.com

| "Babcock the aerospace, defence and security company has secured the first export contract for its Arrowhead 140 (AH140) frigate through a design licence agreement with PT PAL Indonesia (Persero), a state-owned enterprise that builds and maintains ships for military and commercial use from its facilities in Surabaya, Indonesia." |

Does this mean that Babcock is not just a licence holder but already own the whole design and IP-rights (and not anymore a property of Odense Staalskibsværft) ?


| "The design licence will enable PAL to build two Arrowhead 140 frigates in Indonesia with bespoke design modifications for the Indonesian Navy." |

I just wonder why not directly three ships, one for every fleet.

 

[Arji]

I just wonder why not directly three ships, one for every fleet.

Budgetary reason, perhaps?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Budgetary reason, perhaps?

That's possible.

Btw @Ananda , your idol on Twitter keep taking about patrolboats (GMFPB) from Turkiye for Indonesia.
I can't find anything about it, also not on their own website.

https://www.taisshipyards.com/tr/gmfpb-guided-missile-fast-patrol-boat-67

https://www.taisshipyards.com/en/insights

Is the Oracle again on drugs, or is he actually just talking about plans (and no serious negotiations let alone contracts)?

 

[Ananda]

Does this mean that Babcock is not just a licence holder but already own the whole design and IP-rights (and not anymore a property of Odense Staalskibsværft) ?

Budgetary reason, perhaps?

This program seems using Last Term budget. Budget that should be used for KCR #3&4. Thus the budget being move to Iver Based Frigates, when they seems falling out with Damen. So they're still not using foreign financing line being prepared for this term. If they're move ahead with Fincantieri, then they are using financing line for this term.

Add: Trying to find more information on IP rights on Iver design. Seems what Babcock hold is IP rights on Arrowhead 140, which it self derived from Odense design as we know. Thus Odense still hold the IP right on base design. However seems further co-op on selling the design will be work out with Babcock, considering Odense doesn't have Yards anymore, while Babcock have more capabilities on providing daily technical field implementation on the design, for licensing project.

the Oracle again on drugs, or is he actually just talking about plans (and no serious negotiations let alone contracts)?

At this time seems still rumours (rumours including unconfirmed negotiations). Indonesian forums discuss that TNI-AL not happy with both KCR 40 and 60. However whether this's means they are looking for new design from overseas, is not confirmed from any official site yet.

One thing for sure, Politically if they are working with overseas vendors and using their design, it has to shown benefits to local Industry. Just like this Babcock deals.

 

[deadlast]

I was looking again at images of KRI Pollux 935.

KRI Pollux-935, kapal perang terbaru TNI AL produksi dalam negeri

TNI Angkatan Laut resmi memiliki kapal perang terbaru yang diberi nama KRI Pollux-935. Kapal perang produksi dalam negeri buatan PT Karimun

www.airspace-review.com

KRI Pollux-935 perkuat Alutsista TNI AL

Kapal perang buatan dalam negeri, KRI Pollux-935, akan memperkuat alutsista TNI Angkatan Laut, khususnya Pusat Hidro-Oseanografi TNI AL ...

m.antaranews.com

Clear images of the 30 mm gun are not really available. Like the navy want to hide that its just a manual operated thing or something...

What could it be? Its not an Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm WS, an Aselsan Smash or an MSI Defence DS 30B REMSIG 30mm. Could it be a variant of the MSI-DS SEAHAWK LW30M or MSI-DS SEAHAWK DS A1?

MSI-DS SEAHAWK LW A1 30mm is the model you're looking for, used the usual Mk44 Bushmaster II 30mm autocannon. It's remote-controlled btw and there are optical sensor box integrated on the side of the gun so it can be used manually (directly behind the cannon) or remotely from inside the ship itself.

MSI-DS SEAHAWK LW A1 - MSI Defence Systems

 

[Ananda]

https://www.kemhan.go.id/2021/09/17/menhan-ri-prabowo-subianto-menghadiri-penanda-tanganan-kontrak-kapal-frigat-tni-al-type-31-antara-pt-pal-dan-babcock-internasional-pada-pameran-dsei-di-inggris.html

From MinDef official sites, shown Prabowo's and his British counterpart Ben Wallace co-sign the Babcock - PAL Arrowhead 140 agreement, as official witnesses. Well standard defense contract shown each government give blessings on the deal, which legally commercial ones.

Anyway the article also shown photo of Prabowo's attend BAe stand in DSEI, and getting presentation on Eurofighter. Are the Brits/BAe trying to sneak out French/Dasault ? Will the Brits provide something more interesting in packages term ? imagine if that happening, and how furor in Paris after they lost out firm deals in Australia to UK and US. Just light gossiping.

 

[Ananda]

Resmi, PAL Pilih Desain Babcock untuk Proyek Kapal Frigate Kemhan

PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) menandatangani Licence Agreement dengan Rosyth Royal Dockyard Ltd (Babcock) sebagai Penyedia Desain Arrowhead 140 untuk Pengadaan 2 (dua) unit Kapal Frigate […]

pal.co.id

This's announcement from PAL official site. Nothing new except in this announcement, they seems acknowledge the amount of missile armament that the tweeter guy wrote.

3x8 Medium range SAM,
4x8 Long Range medium SAM,
2x8 SSM.

The whole package will be FFBNW, thus follow the usual Indonesian procurement practices where the frames and armament finance separately. The amount of VLS combination actually not much different with Danish original Iver Frigates.

If they go with French missiles, then probably using combination of VL MICA and Aster 30/Sylver VLS. If using British one, then probably CAMM and SM-2/MK-41. There's also still possibility of CAMM and Aster 30/Sylver.

The whole project will be taking 69 months, and I presume when a Yards talk time frame including handing over to user (TNI-AL).

 

[Arji]

That's great if true. Finally a long range Sam.

 

[Ananda]

If we look again on this Babcock presentation on Xavier video, Babcock spoke person shown the model of CAMM can be put in middle of superstructure or in B position up front. Perhaps he shown that as there're already discussion with potential customer on using that position for Short-Mid range SAM on CAMM class.

The tweeter guy this time around seems got right rumours on the missile allotment planning. So seems 3x8 CAMM or MICA VL cannisters on B position, and 4x8 VL of either Sylver or MK-41 class in the middle of superstructure (just as original position on Danish Iver Frigates).

The question now on SSM. PAL announcement talk on 2x8 VL SSM. I'm curious what kind of VL SSM will be choose. Usually in Western practice, the cruise missiles that being choose on VL method, while SSM like Exocet, Harpoon, or NSM not being put on VL configuration.

We still don't know if the length will be still on Arrowhead model of 139m or the rumours also true that Indonesian version will be 143+m. I do suspect if 143m is true, then perhaps they lengthening B position to provide space for 3x8 either CAMM or MICA class.

Whatever the specs will be, this project will be the test for PAL on their ambition as regional Frigates class player.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

MSI-DS SEAHAWK LW A1 30mm is the model you're looking for, used the usual Mk44 Bushmaster II 30mm autocannon. It's remote-controlled btw and there are optical sensor box integrated on the side of the gun so it can be used manually (directly behind the cannon) or remotely from inside the ship itself.

MSI-DS SEAHAWK LW A1 - MSI Defence Systems

Thanks a lot Deadlast!

https://www.kemhan.go.id/2021/09/17/menhan-ri-prabowo-subianto-menghadiri-penanda-tanganan-kontrak-kapal-frigat-tni-al-type-31-antara-pt-pal-dan-babcock-internasional-pada-pameran-dsei-di-inggris.html

From MinDef official sites, shown Prabowo's and his British counterpart Ben Wallace co-sign the Babcock - PAL Arrowhead 140 agreement, as official witnesses. Well standard defense contract shown each government give blessings on the deal, which legally commercial ones.

Anyway the article also shown photo of Prabowo's attend BAe stand in DSEI, and getting presentation on Eurofighter. Are the Brits/BAe trying to sneak out French/Dasault ? Will the Brits provide something more interesting in packages term ? imagine if that happening, and how furor in Paris after they lost out firm deals in Australia to UK and US. Just light gossiping.

Maybe our defence minister is more interested about Hawk-upgrade / MLU-packages from BAe.

| "In addition, buyer credit guarantees for Indonesia were supplied for the acquisition of Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules medium transport aircraft (maximum liability of GBP74,6 million) and air-defence systems from Thales UK (maximum liability of GBP29,8 million)." |
Or maybe he visited the British stand for the Shorts Starstreak short range air defence system.

 

[Ananda]

maybe he visited the British stand for the Shorts Starstreak short range air defence system.

Personally I hope he come to Britain asside for Babcock and PAL signing, but also talking to his counterpart on getting some of those ex RAF C-130J.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439586682307633161

| "....... Ketua Harian Gerindra, Sufmi Dasco Ahmad. Dia menyebut kapal ini merupakan yang tercanggih dari kapal perang yang ada." |

This guy has indeed an extreme high level of confidence.

Bonus photos.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439201769540644865

 

[Arji]

This guy has indeed an extreme high level of confidence.

He probably just trying to sell Prabowo as a politician.

 

[ChestnutTree]

The question now on SSM. PAL announcement talk on 2x8 VL SSM. I'm curious what kind of VL SSM will be choose. Usually in Western practice, the cruise missiles that being choose on VL method, while SSM like Exocet, Harpoon, or NSM not being put on VL configuration.

Does the Exocet allow VL configuration? I haven't heard anything that implies that the Block 3 Exocets allow that. And unless they are going with something that isn't made by MBDA, then the only thing offered in the SSM category is the naval version of SCALP NG (which carries a hefty price tag and I doubt they would be able to afford it) or AIUI the Perseus when it comes online.

Twitter guy also mentioned that the TNI-AL's Inspiration class variant may use the Sea Master 400. I somewhat think this may be true, considering their size, mission profile, and the Navy's long relationship with Thales.

This guy has indeed an extreme high level of confidence.

Again, all of this high profile deals really smells like Prabowo trying to get himself into the presidency (or at least his party members seats in parliament)

 

[Ananda]

Exocet allow VL configuration? I haven't heard anything that implies that the Block 3 Exocets allow that. And unless they are going with something that isn't made by MBDA, then the only thing offered in the SSM category is the naval version of SCALP NG (which carries a hefty price tag and I doubt they would be able to afford it) or AIUI the Perseus when it comes online.

That's the question I'm also interested. Looking on TNI-AL procurement on missile that's bit MBDA centric, it's highly probable on Sylver rather then MK-41 (despite the Tweeter guy talk on French will not sell Sylver to other Euro design Frigates). So if the announcement from PAL is going to be the definitive VLS configuration, it's more efficient with 6x8 Sylver with 4x8 for Aster 30 and 2x8 for Exocet 3. Then again no one has trial for Exocet on VL configuration.

The only (non Russian and Chinese) VLS that's been operationally mated with SSM (not Cruise Missiles) are KVLS with Haeseong-II SSM. LM also talk on MK-41 potentially mated with NSM, but I haven't found anything more on that. Budget wise, I don't think MinDef have financial capabilities to acquire Western made Cruise Missiles (even being allowed by suppliers countries).

It's unlikely TNI-AL/MinDef will go with Yakhont after CAATSA. However there's potential with Brahmos, as it's already operational with VLS on Indian Navy. India already for some time trying to sell Brahmos to Indonesia. However this means using Russian VLS. Also it's means inefficient VLS configuration if they already choose either Sylver or MK-41 for Long Range SAM.

Who knows, perhaps MinDef trial on Reverse Engineering Chinese SSM do come to fruition, and that missile can be mated with VLS cannisters. Long shot, but who knows (we still not heard yet the progress on that SSM Reverse Engineering).

This guy has indeed an extreme high level of confidence.

He probably just trying to sell Prabowo as a politician.

this high profile deals really smells like Prabowo trying to get himself into the presidency (or at least his party members seats in parliament)

The picture that posted of Prabowo's in front of Type 23, also raise speculations that Prabowo's also in London talking with his counterpart on potential 2 Type 23 as Interim Frigates. One thing for sure, there're 4 Van Speijk that need to be replaced ASAP. The deal with Italian (if consummate) will provide 2 Maestrale as Interim Frigates. They (MinDef) still need to find another two interim Frigates.

The process for new Frigates whether FREMM or this Iver/Arrowhead will take to later end of this decade to be operationals. So TNI-AL at least need 4 interim Frigates for 10-15 years operational live.

As for that Gerindra Politicians, off course he try to sell his Boss achievement to public. Election process is less then three years away. Prabowo's need to shown he accomplished something more than his ineffective Defense Minister predecessor.

 

[ChestnutTree]

The process for new Frigates whether FREMM or this Iver/Arrowhead will take to later end of this decade to be operationals. So TNI-AL at least need 4 interim Frigates for 10-15 years operational live.

I think the rumors about the Indonesian Inspiration class being lengthened to 143m indicates that they are more or less supposed to be destroyers. The purported weapons and electronic fit-outs fits the definition, fairly sure the TNI-AL is doing what some European navies do and classify ships considered internationally as destroyers to be frigates.

The process for new Frigates whether FREMM or this Iver/Arrowhead will take to later end of this decade to be operationals. So TNI-AL at least need 4 interim Frigates for 10-15 years operational live.

My only concern is what will the TNI-AL do with the hulls once all of the FREMMs come online. We know that the Indonesian military has a terrible habit of keeping things in service long past their use date to the detriment of its budget and resources.

 

[Ananda]

The purported weapons and electronic fit-outs fits the definition, fairly sure the TNI-AL is doing what some European navies do and classify ships considered internationally as destroyers to be frigates.

I believe, there are already discussion on this forum on this matter on some other threads. In short due to nature of electronics size, weapons and scope of operation, everyone practically upsizing every boat/ship on each function. We can see patrol boat now increase from 20m-50m before toward 40m-75m, Corvettes that before around 70-90m now have tendencies toward 80m-110m, Frigates now up to 160m, destroyers up to 180m, and Cruisers concept (as no cruiser yet come recently) now in 200m+.

All that just my average view on the enlargement. However seems the function will more or less the same. It's not surprising comsidering what can be call Destroyers in WW1 now can only be classified as Patrol Boats. Even MCM now being upgrade from 50-60m toward 80-100m if we see the latest concept of MCM.

only concern is what will the TNI-AL do with the hulls once all of the FREMMs come online.

It's all depend on Economics and Budget condition. I remembered on my school days when Van Speijk being procured from Netherlands in mid 80's, the then Navy Chief talk in media that TNI-AL envision only using them not more than 20 years. Then come economic crisis, Soeharto fall, changing Political Priority, then suddenly its close to 40 years on TNI-AL operations.

Just to remind, when PKR Sigma being planned during SBY era, it is envision by 2020 all 6 PKR Sigma 10514 should be launch and replacing all Van Speijk. Changing to current administrations, changing specs on Frigates, changing political priority (not to mention imcompetence MinDef on Jokowi's first term), all that factor that make Van Speijk still soldier on until now.

I bet even now the plan interim frigates still has oppositions, eventough they (who oppose) know current Frigates (Van Speijk) is alrrady rooting away, and new Frigates will take some time to operate (even if everything run smoothly which is a challange in Indonesia). But why should they think on soldier/military problem if it benefits political rival .

So whether the interim Frigates or Submarine will be use more than plan, it all depends on the progress with new Frigates and Submarine building. They (TNI-AL) does not have infinite number of people to crew them all anyway.

 

[Stargazer]

Just for a quick count, how many Indonesian navy ship classes are relics that should really be retired?

 

[Ananda]

how many Indonesian navy ship classes are relics that should really be retired?

The priority right now is the 4 Van Speijk Frigates. From 6, two of them already being replaced by Sigma 10514. Then there's 16 ex East German Parchim Corvettes (15 now still operating), and 9 ex German Kondor MCM.

Most ex USN LST already in process being replace by indegenous LST. The ROK build Tacoma LST seems going to be maintain for some time. The old Tankers also being replaced by locally build Tanker/AOR, however seems one old Tanker (ex RN Rover class Tanker/AOR) will still be maintain for time being.

The Frigates already have the plan on replacing them (as being discuss in this thread), we just have to wait on the implementation. The Kondor MCM I don't think will be replaced on one by one basis, most of them being used as Patrol boats anyway. So far seem TNI-AL only plan to maintain 2 existing Tripartite MCMV plus 2 new MCMV that now being build in Germany.

What I'm still not sure on the plan for Parchim replacement. Those East German Corvetes still make the bulk on TNI-AL Patrol Force. The new indegenous locally build OPV seems aim to replace them. However seems TNI-AL now only order 2, perhaps they will still see how the result of that locally build and design OPV.

Add:
I forgot to add those ex East German Frosch LST. However just like ex USN LST, seems they are also in plann being replace by Locally build LST.

 

[tonnyc]

Just for a quick count, how many Indonesian navy ship classes are relics that should really be retired?

Off the top of my head I can only think of the Parchim, Van Speijk and Type-209.