are the 3 Fatahillahs still active?
Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
- Start date
That sounds like an awful lot to replace. Still, many of the corvettes and Frigates do look more like glorified OPVs at this point, so their replacement capability-wise shouldn't have that high a bar.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Fatahilla class having MLU but mostly in electronics and sensors, not armament. So yes, they're now basically OPV. Local defense blog claim no plan for SSM for them replacing old Exocet MM38.
That's why I do see if the Local OPV program shown good performance tracking, I do sense despite this talk of Arrowhead, FREMM and potential Mogami Frigates, the bulk of TNI-AL naval assets in future will still be this 40m, 60m and 90m Patrol Boats and OPV.
Even if TNI-AL overall Frigates plan work according smoothly, the bulk of Patrol duties will still run by those Patrol Boats and OPV/Corvettes. Those Frigates simply to costly to run with TNI-AL operational budget if they are doing bulk of Patrol duties.
Last edited:
Sylver's on the Italian PPA & the British Type 45.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Direktorat Jenderal Strategi Pertahanan Kemhan RI
www.kemhan.go.id
From MinDef official site, on the JCDC meeting between MinDef Directorate General of Defense Strategy and their Italian counterpart.
This particular DG is part of MinDef that handle defense planning and development. Including procurement and co-op project. Is this meeting related with development on Fincantieri project?
Last edited:
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
You mean PKR 3&4, right?
Those rumours of TNI-AL being unsatisfied about the KCR-60, what are those rumours? Range, endurance, speed, stability, structural strength?
And are these rumours products of the speculations, guessings and fantasies of the netizens or based on facts and reliable sources?
Maybe they will talk indeed about the FREMM-order. I just hope that if this project will become reality, the systems on board will be from Hollandse Signaalapparaten/Thales Nederland or Terma. After the British, Chinese, Danish, Dutch and Russian systems, having also the Italian Selex on our vessels make everything more complicated and expensive.Direktorat Jenderal Strategi Pertahanan Kemhan RI
From MinDef official site, on the JCDC meeting between MinDef Directorate General of Defense Strategy and their Italian counterpart.
This particular DG is part of MinDef that handle defense planning and development. Including procurement and co-op project. Is this meeting related with development on Fincantieri project?
Indonesia holds offset talks with Abeking & Rasmussen for new hydrographic ship
Indonesia's Ministry of Defense (MoD) held a virtual meeting with German shipbuilder Abeking & Rasmussen to discuss the possible procurement of an ocean-going...
www.janes.com
These talks make sense, after all Indonesia has ordered two minehunters from Abeking & Rasmussen. Ordering a similar ship from the same shipyard will make the acquisition, training, maintenance and operations much more cost efficient and less time consuming.
Last edited:
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, seems I forget this typo for some time. PKR #3&4 that should have build last term, and should have beem launch and in finishing stage this time around.
Most of it I can only clasified as Rumours. However they do make modification on the KCR 60 design (and retrofitted on KCR #1&2), for fin stabiliser. So one modifications on stabilities seems confirm.
Last edited by a moderator:
Can anyone confirm the primary war-fighting radar on the KCR 60 (and not the navigation radar)? Is it only equipped with the SCANTER X-Surface Search and Short-Medium Range Air Surveillance Radar System?
For any small vessel (below 70 metres long), fin stabilisers make a huge difference and greatly increases the accuracy of the guns on the KCR 60 — this is a very sensible upgrade. The trade-off is slightly higher fuel consumption but really worth its weight in gold when it is monsoon season.
Last edited:
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Terma Awarded Contract for Complete C-Series Combat Suite for Indonesian KCR-60 Vessels
This contract is an important breakthrough for Terma as it represents the first sale of a complete Combat System in Indonesia.
www.terma.com
From KCR 60 #3 to 6, they are using full Terma C series combat suit. This announcement on Terma already two years old. Outside those Terma C series suite, so far I haven't found other reliable information. Even PAL sites doesn't talk much.
This suite more on CMS, Decoy system, Fire Control System and Scanter 4603 X Band Radars. It's been talk they also have seperate navigational radar, however seems all combat system based on Terma suite package. PAL build the boats on FFBNW concept. Thus I do not know for sure after this Terma Combat Suite installation, whether there will be another set of sensors being put.
Bit doubt of that, as this KCR 60 being build for Anti Surface capabilities with limited Anti Air and capabilities for OPV duties. It's being put by PAL on their site:
KCR 60 Meter Produksi PAL Andalan TNI AL Untuk Mengawal Wilayah Pantai Indonesia
Kapal Cepat Rudal (KCR) 60 Meter merupakan salah satu produk Alutsista yang merupakan state of the art PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) di mana keseluruhan proses […]
pal.co.id
KCR 60 #1&2 using Chinese Suite. However I don't find reliable detail information on that Chinese Suite. Perhaps other Indonesian members can get it.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
We got the answer on our questions.
The Indonesian Navy plans to equip its new class of two 90 m offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) with a Turkish combat management system (CMS) and weapons for anti-submarine and anti-ship operations.
It seems that the Indonesian Navy has selected the Advent combat system from Turkish software company Havelsan, this system will be linked to the Oto Melara 76/62 mm gun.
Indonesia configures 90 m OPVs for anti-submarine, anti-ship operations
The Indonesian Navy is equipping its new class of two 90 m offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) with a Turkish combat management system (CMS) and weapons for anti-submarine...
www.janes.com
Last edited:
Ananda
The Bunker Group
@Sandhi Yudha I believe the tweeter guy ranting on 'rumours' Fast Missile Boats from Turkey is related on this design from Turkish STM:
www.stm.com.tr
This's what being 'rumours' due to TNI-AL not really satisfied KCR 40 & 60 as FMB. Rumours circulate that KCR-40 & 60 design later on being optimised more as Patrol Boats not FMB.
If the rumors's correct, then they want something that can be replacement for South Korean build Mandau Missile boats. No Indonesian yards have experience on dealing with Turbine Gas integration. Perhaps they are looking on Yards with working CODAG or COGAG FMB design, to work as partner. Again so far it's just in 'rumours' stage (for me as long as not official, then it's still 'rumours').
STM - Fast Attack Craft
Fast Attack Craft (FAC55) can perform sea warfare and patrol duties under harsh conditions! Click to see the details now.
www.stm.com.tr
This's what being 'rumours' due to TNI-AL not really satisfied KCR 40 & 60 as FMB. Rumours circulate that KCR-40 & 60 design later on being optimised more as Patrol Boats not FMB.
If the rumors's correct, then they want something that can be replacement for South Korean build Mandau Missile boats. No Indonesian yards have experience on dealing with Turbine Gas integration. Perhaps they are looking on Yards with working CODAG or COGAG FMB design, to work as partner. Again so far it's just in 'rumours' stage (for me as long as not official, then it's still 'rumours').
Yes, seems indication derive to that. Just as I posted before, they seems try to see how this OPV design turn in operational level. Hopefully if it's turned out acceptable, it can proceed as full Parchim replacement. Just like Van Speijk, the Parchim is also overdue to be replaced.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Do you have any indications or reliable sources that it is the FAC55 from STM?@Sandhi Yudha I believe the tweeter guy ranting on 'rumours' Fast Missile Boats from Turkey is related on this design from Turkish STM:
STM - Fast Attack Craft
Fast Attack Craft (FAC55) can perform sea warfare and patrol duties under harsh conditions! Click to see the details now.
This's what being 'rumours' due to TNI-AL not really satisfied KCR 40 & 60 as FMB. Rumours circulate that KCR-40 & 60 design later on being optimised more as Patrol Boats not FMB.
If the rumors's correct, then they want something that can be replacement for South Korean build Mandau Missile boats. No Indonesian yards have experience on dealing with Turbine Gas integration. Perhaps they are looking on Yards with working CODAG or COGAG FMB design, to work as partner. Again so far it's just in 'rumours' stage (for me as long as not official, then it's still 'rumours').
Yes, seems indication derive to that. Just as I posted before, they seems try to see how this OPV design turn in operational level. Hopefully if it's turned out acceptable, it can proceed as full Parchim replacement. Just like Van Speijk, the Parchim is also overdue to be replaced.
Your idol is telling this
| "TAIS made GMFPB 67 likely will become the choice for Indonesian imported FAC program. The program has received PSP, waiting for execution from Ministry of Defense. According to plan, the whole FAC will be built in Turkey. Two 68 meters FAC. Let's see whether contract will sign." |
So he is talking about a complete other design from another shipyard.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
No, that's why it's just 'rumours'. Seems from what I gather there're talking with 'finance' people on some Turkish deals. The FMB seems part of that. However no 'done' deal yet. What I heard is, the design must be based on what 'operational' design that going to be use by Turkish Navy.
So I put STM design as seems from Turkish forums and media, the design that's going to be taken by Turkish Navy. One other thing that 'Twitter' Guy seems ommited on his tweet, which is 'political' consideration. If MinDef being approved to use Turkish design for next FMB, then the Turkish vendors must provide licensing to local shipyard.
Can you imagine the 'political' noise that happen, if for Frigates already got licensing to build locally (on Babcock) or some shares manufacturing (on Fincantieri), While for FMB build overall in Turkey ?
Let see how this 'rumours' on Turkish FMB going to develop.
ChestnutTree
Active Member
Jane's article detailed the specifications of the DRU OPV. The CMS is confirmed to be the Advent combat system from Havelsan. The ships will come with a 76mm SuperRapid with FFBNW provisions for 2x 20mm cannons amid-ship, a 35mm CIWS, 8x AShMs, variable depth sonar, and decoy launchers.
I wonder if they intentionally left out provisions for VLS missiles and MANPADS. Seems a bit dumb to not a equip a ship of this size with missiles for self-defense. Even the Parchims that these OPV's are supposed to replace are equipped with 2x SA-N-5's MANPADS.
I wonder if they intentionally left out provisions for VLS missiles and MANPADS. Seems a bit dumb to not a equip a ship of this size with missiles for self-defense. Even the Parchims that these OPV's are supposed to replace are equipped with 2x SA-N-5's MANPADS.
I think that was the intention from the get go. But again it slightly feels inadequate in the sense that the 35mm CIWS is the only form of self-defense that the class has.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I put it again the old Photo of National Corvettes (KorNas) program model from early SBY era. If we see the armament configuration, basically shown similarities with what being plan for this OPV 90.
Difference is where KorNas model provide missile placement on top of hangar, in this OPV 90, it's replaced by 35mm Millennium gun CIWS.
It's going to be debatable whether 35mm CIWS like millennium gun will provide better CIWS function then say missile based CIWS system like RIM. Similar config on weapons system between this OPV and KorNas shown that this OPV is aim on similar duty function with KorNas.
From old KorNas plan (since actually this KorNas program begin in 90's with PAL- Fincantiari studies), they plan this KorNas as main backbone for TNI-AL 'Green Water' patrolling capabilities. This thread being call Indonesian 'Green Water', and this KorNas is actually where the main TNI-AL green water capabilities will be.
Why they want to call it now as OPV and not Corvettes, perhaps MinDef has their own judgement on that. However with 28 knots max speed and this kind of weapons config, this's just OPV in name. Perhaps this days OPV and Corvettes become actually one definition in practice.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Not all Parchim class corvettes had the Strela on board, only some of them. But i have more trust in a CIWS like the Oerlikon Millennium, than in some low-tech cheap MANPADS for defence against anti-ship missiles.
So the new 90 m OPVs are an improvement in almost everything: size, displacement and firepower.
The only weird thing is that it will have a VDS, but no torpedoes on board.
On the other hand having the HSA Smart-S Mk.2 on those STM 55 m fast missile boats is quite surprisingly. Maybe something more simple like the MW08 or the Scanter 4100 series fits better.
Now something else.
Ive never seen the Indonesian Navy dropping sea mines from an aircraft before.
Last edited:
It does have a hangar, doesn't it? Maybe the torpedo will be air-delivered? That, or these class of vessel only meant to act as a supplement for the bigger ships in ASW operation.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
If we see the schematics video from the builder, it has place asside hangar to mid superstructure for triple light torpedoes installation. This ships will be in the 'outstanding' tradition of TNI-AL recent procurement FFBNW. Thus it can be fitted later on if the budget and need arrive.
Until now, we can only guessing what TNI-AL really want to do with this class of OPV. We already see the same design for KCR 40 and 60 being tweek a bit for Patrol Boats 40m and 60m that's also being call OPV.
Real concept on OPV actually so far only been done to BAKAMLA/Coast Guards Patrol Boats/Ships. Those Bakamla vessels more optimised for patrol endurance rather then speed. The specs for TNI-AL OPV on the other hand more in line with Corvettes.
However one thing for sure as you have put, it is bigger thus provide more room to grow compared to Parchim. Parchim on the other hand actually by East German Navy being build for shallow water ASW patrol in Baltic. So it doesn't surprising if as Parchim replacement, TNI-AL also want to maintain that ASW Corvettes/Patrol capabilities.
New press release from Terma, dated 29 September 2021.
Two new contracts were signed 31 August 2021, although the announcement was a month later. The first contract is for Electronic Support Measures integrated with C-Flex for six vessels. Given the number and the specific mention of C-Flex, this is going to be for the KCR-60M (the second batch, not the early one using Chinese systems). This is not the same as the 2019 contract discussed last week.
The second contract is ASW upgrades for the Sigma-class corvettes.
Price is not mentioned.
Two new contracts were signed 31 August 2021, although the announcement was a month later. The first contract is for Electronic Support Measures integrated with C-Flex for six vessels. Given the number and the specific mention of C-Flex, this is going to be for the KCR-60M (the second batch, not the early one using Chinese systems). This is not the same as the 2019 contract discussed last week.
The second contract is ASW upgrades for the Sigma-class corvettes.
Price is not mentioned.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing.
Well, the whole KCR-60 class consists of six vessels, all batches combined, including the early ones which is equipped with chinese systems.
I just wonder if these chinese systems will be replaced with the new Terma C-Flex system, or if the Terma stuff will be add to / integrated in the chinese system.
Besides that in the first two vessels, PAL just installed the AU-220M naval guns. Will the fire control system connected to the Terma installation, or will the gun operate separately?