The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[spoz]

No, because the UK recognises it as Ukrainian territorial waters; so of course they are exercising the right of innocent passage through Ukrainian territory. FONOPS is always about the high seas; usually where somebody has tried to claim part of it as either internal waters or territorial sea, or is moving in that direction. And it’s not just about the SCS; the USN in particular does them across the globe where it believes UNCLOS rules (to which the US is, ironically, not a party officially) are being breached.

 

[Systems Adict]

...& in Today's Other news, Construction commences on HMS Belfast, the 3rd Type 26 Frigate...

Belfast-Steel Cutting

 

[swerve]

But the argument could be that they are inside Ukrainian waters because the Russian annexation of the Crimea isn't recognised under international law.

That's exactly what the British government & the RN say.

 

[Systems Adict]

Just caught this on my news feed...

Type 45 Destroyers to be fitted with Sea Ceptor

 

[ngatimozart]

Just caught this on my news feed...

Type 45 Destroyers to be fitted with Sea Ceptor

Makes sense.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Just caught this on my news feed...

Type 45 Destroyers to be fitted with Sea Ceptor

Excellent news, not least because the official statement says that Sea Ceptor will be installed of the 48 cell Aster 30 silo - i.e. Aster 15 will be ditched. That means the amount of long-range AAW missiles available to protect a taskforce will massively increase for every Type 45 deployed, making it possible to survive repeated attacks without having to disengage to resupply in port.

 

[swerve]

It doesn't actually say outright that Aster 15 will be ditched, though that's certainly the implication, & I think a safe assumption. Interesting that they've gone for the mushroom farm, not ExLS or extra Sylver. Recycled from retiring Type 23s? The timing fits, I think, & should be cheaper. Good news, whatever the source.

I've often thought that Aster 15 has a bit of a problematic future, & this is another brick in the wall it looks as if it's running into. The competition in that sector has got too good. VL Mica NG & Albatros NG (CAMM-ER) have now made their first sales.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

It doesn't actually say outright that Aster 15 will be ditched, though that's certainly the implication, & I think a safe assumption. Interesting that they've gone for the mushroom farm, not ExLS or extra Sylver. Recycled from retiring Type 23s? The timing fits, I think, & should be cheaper. Good news, whatever the source.

I've often thought that Aster 15 has a bit of a problematic future, & this is another brick in the wall it looks as if it's running into. The competition in that sector has got too good. VL Mica NG & Albatros NG (CAMM-ER) have now made their first sales.

Well, MBDA appears to believe Aster 15 is being ditched:

The existing 48 Sylver cells on the Type 45 will now be solely for the longer-range Aster 30 missile, which is also subject to a recently announced mid-life refresh.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412405634671259655

 

[swerve]

Yes, that settles any doubt. It looked very much as if that was meant, & MBDA confirms it.

I wonder how long an Aster 15 booster lasts. Since it looks as if we'll not get rid of all of 'em until the end of this decade, perhaps this'll just be a matter of not replacing or refreshing time-expired ones. Maybe the top stages will be refurbished & we'll just buy more Aster 30 boosters. It'd be nice to know, but that sort of detail may not occur to anyone to be worth publishing.

 

[chis73]

Just a question on the Type 45 & Sea Ceptor. The government press release says that:

To facilitate the introduction of CAMM, a new 24-missile CAMM silo will be added in front of the current 48-missile Aster 30 silos, therefore increasing the overall missile capacity of the vessels by 50 per cent

Is this the same space (between the 4.5-inch gun and the Sylver VLS) that was reserved for the Mk 41 tactical-length VLS (and currently being used as a gym iirc)? If so, this would seem to limit the future versatility of the Type 45, would it not? It will be even more specialized as as AAW platform. Not that I'm complaining about the upgrade (more is always better), just curious.

 

[Inverno]

Just a question on the Type 45 & Sea Ceptor. The government press release says that:



Is this the same space (between the 4.5-inch gun and the Sylver VLS) that was reserved for the Mk 41 tactical-length VLS (and currently being used as a gym iirc)? If so, this would seem to limit the future versatility of the Type 45, would it not? It will be even more specialized as as AAW platform. Not that I'm complaining about the upgrade (more is always better), just curious.

Same space, Mk41 ditched.

"There has been considerable speculation that US-made Mk41 VLS might be fitted to the Type 45s, potentially to carry Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles (TLAM) or even SM-3 missiles for anti-ballistic missile defence. Despite the adoption of Mk41 on the Type 26 frigate, Mk41 will not now be fitted to the Type 45s."

Royal Navy’s Type 45 destroyers – reaching their full potential with addition of Sea Ceptor missiles

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Is this the same space (between the 4.5-inch gun and the Sylver VLS) that was reserved for the Mk 41 tactical-length VLS (and currently being used as a gym iirc)? If so, this would seem to limit the future versatility of the Type 45, would it not? It will be even more specialized as as AAW platform.

Yes, and right now that's what the Royal Navy wants - better anti-air protection for the QE-class. If they had more Type 45s they'd have considered making them more multi-role, but they don't.

Then there's the fact that the replacement is already being designed, so it's probably not worth boosting the Type 45's secondary capabilities. Might be worth keeping in mind for the Type 83 depending how large it will be.

 

[StobieWan]

Yes, that settles any doubt. It looked very much as if that was meant, & MBDA confirms it.

I wonder how long an Aster 15 booster lasts. Since it looks as if we'll not get rid of all of 'em until the end of this decade, perhaps this'll just be a matter of not replacing or refreshing time-expired ones. Maybe the top stages will be refurbished & we'll just buy more Aster 30 boosters. It'd be nice to know, but that sort of detail may not occur to anyone to be worth publishing.

Aster-15 has been slated for retirement for a while now - it's going out of support and I get the impression it's never been a sales success. Not sure what the French will do with CdG' now - that has Aster 15 fitted right now. So, yeah, CAMM plus a refresh for the 30's, fairly positive, although I'd like to have seen the Mk41 strike cells fitted.

 

[swerve]

They have VL Mica NG now, which has much longer range than the basic VL Mica & has dual boost which should greatly improve terminal energy, which were major disadvantages compared to Aster 15. AFAIK it's still only possible to fit one in a Sylver A43 - which it doesn't need all the length of so it's a bit of a waste using it. I can see A43 beng dropped unless someone comes up with major new uses for it. Maybe extend existing ones to take CAMM-ER? But I won't bet on that.

 

[StobieWan]

They have VL Mica NG now, which has much longer range than the basic VL Mica & has dual boost which should greatly improve terminal energy, which were major disadvantages compared to Aster 15. AFAIK it's still only possible to fit one in a Sylver A43 - which it doesn't need all the length of so it's a bit of a waste using it. I can see A43 beng dropped unless someone comes up with major new uses for it. Maybe extend existing ones to take CAMM-ER? But I won't bet on that.

Yup to the single fit - Aster 15 is basically an Aster 30 without the booster - tubby old girl.

I suspect Aster-15 was also quite expensive as it's got all the gucci features of the longer ranged missile - possibly it may be more lethal in the engagement than CAMM but carrying four times as many sort of ticks a few boxes.

Getting up to 72 cells does give a much better margin to stay in the fight and of course, the missile is already in service with the RN so no major costs involved in the supply chain. Now all they have to do is lop the 4.5 inch off the front and add a 57mm instead.

 

[swerve]

Actually, by "still only possible to fit one in a Sylver A43" I meant that only one Mica can be fitted in a Sylver A43. That's a bit of a waste of space, in both length & width, & with Aster 15 being retired, I don't see any use for the A43. It's not quite tall enough for CAMM-ER, I think.

57mm rather than 127 mm because it's good for AA & a T45 shouldn't be getting involved in shelling land targets & the like? I agree that it's logical to get rid of 4.5". With the T23s retiring it'll be an orphan gun.

 

[Git_Kraken]

4.5" is 114mm not 127mm. 5" is the 127mm. Given the excellent capabilities of CAMM at close ranges and the combination of the Phalanx, a 57mm might not add enough PKill to make it worthwhile. With the retirement of the Harpoons, the only ASuW ability left for the T45's is their main gun.

I'm pretty agnostic about the guns either way though. 5", 4.5" or 57mm makes no real difference to me. The destroyer's real work is done at the 10-120 km ranges (or further). The CAMM will strengthen that quite a bit.

 

[ADMk2]

Any chance the RN may swap out some of the Sylver cells for Mk.41? I seem to recall there was some talk of putting Tomahawk onto the T45’s?

The Block V variant of Tomahawk would neatly resolve the lack of an ASM issue as well…

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Any chance the RN may swap out some of the Sylver cells for Mk.41?

Zero chance and completely unnecessary in my opinion. See my post above.

I seem to recall there was some talk of putting Tomahawk onto the T45’s?

Nothing official, just the usual speculation.

 

[StobieWan]

Actually, by "still only possible to fit one in a Sylver A43" I meant that only one Mica can be fitted in a Sylver A43. That's a bit of a waste of space, in both length & width, & with Aster 15 being retired, I don't see any use for the A43. It's not quite tall enough for CAMM-ER, I think.

57mm rather than 127 mm because it's good for AA & a T45 shouldn't be getting involved in shelling land targets & the like? I agree that it's logical to get rid of 4.5". With the T23s retiring it'll be an orphan gun.

57mm as a backstop for leakers and also, it's a better FAC plinker - the 4.5 inch mount has a reputation for being unreliable and, as you say, it'll be an orphan calibre once T23 goes out of service.