The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[MARKMILES77]

Downing Street shoots down Russian claims it fired warning shots at Navy destroyer

Ministry of Defence dismisses the reports involving HMS Defender, insisting the Russians were staging a routine gunnery exercise nearby

www.telegraph.co.uk

No official British MOD response yet.

 

[Git_Kraken]

HMS Defender: Russian jets and ships shadow British warship

More than 20 jets and two coastguard ships shadow HMS Defender as it sails near Crimea's coast.

www.bbc.com

Russian plane drops bombs and fires towards HMS Defender as warning in Black sea.
Hope this doesn't escalate!

The Russians are relatively aggressive in and around Odesa. I personally have been onboard when they've buzzed, shadowed, and conducted "wargames" in close proximity. This is much more of a push than normal if true. They are testing to see what the response is, or perhaps having a show for their internal politics.

I certainly hope that there are no accidental incidents which cause loss of life.

Is this a response to QE flying missions over Syria?

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

No official British MOD response yet.

You know, you could give the MOD more than three minutes to reply. People that work there have real jobs and are not on standby to refute fake news circulated by other countries within 180 seconds.

HMS Defender: Russian jets and ships shadow British warship

More than 20 jets and two coastguard ships shadow HMS Defender as it sails near Crimea's coast.

www.bbc.co.uk

The MoD will only hear about fake news after it has been released/forwarded by the press. Then they will need to make contact with the ship and receive a full report. Then the press response needs to be drafted. Then the response needs to be checked by a senior official alongside the ship's report. Then it can be released. This was all done quickly, and there was no need to rush a response out any faster.

Honestly, people need to stop believing Russian (and Chinese) lies rather than assuming as a starting point they are true. As Pompeo said, we should vary the Cold War phrase of "trust, but verify" to "distrust, and verify".

 

[ngatimozart]

HMS Defender: Russian jets and ships shadow British warship

More than 20 jets and two coastguard ships shadow HMS Defender as it sails near Crimea's coast.

www.bbc.com

Russian plane drops bombs and fires towards HMS Defender as warning in Black sea.
Hope this doesn't escalate!

It's Russia making false claims and spreading disinformation. If they did such a thing the repercussions from the UK and probably NATO would be reasonably loud and severe on the diplomatic front.

Addressing Russian aggression in the Black Sea

NATO urgently requires a Black Sea strategy argues Robert Clark in this submission to the UK Defence Journal.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[ngatimozart]

The Russians are relatively aggressive in and around Odesa. I personally have been onboard when they've buzzed, shadowed, and conducted "wargames" in close proximity. This is much more of a push than normal if true. They are testing to see what the response is, or perhaps having a show for their internal politics.

I certainly hope that there are no accidental incidents which cause loss of life.

Is this a response to QE flying missions over Syria?

I believe that this is actually maskirovka and they are definitely up to something. The AIS signals for the Crimean region were spoofed last week showing that Defender was just off Sevastapol when if fact it was tied up alongside in Odessa.

Positions of Two NATO Ships Were Falsified Near Russian Black Sea Naval Base - USNI News

The tracking data of two NATO warships was faked off the coast of a Russian controlled naval base in the Black Sea while the actual ships were moored 180 miles away, USNI News has learned. The U.K. Royal Navy’s HMS Defender, a Type-45 Daring-class destroyer, and the Royal Netherlands Navy’s...

news.usni.org

 

[kato]

It's Russia making false claims and spreading disinformation. If they did such a thing the repercussions from the UK and probably NATO would be reasonably loud and severe on the diplomatic front.

As stated in the BBC article linked earlier Jonathan Beale, defense correspondent of the BBC, is onboard HMS Defender, and - with details - describes the situation as basically a fully intentional British FONOP.

 

[StobieWan]

HMS Defender: Russian jets and ships shadow British warship

More than 20 jets and two coastguard ships shadow HMS Defender as it sails near Crimea's coast.

www.bbc.com

Russian plane drops bombs and fires towards HMS Defender as warning in Black sea.
Hope this doesn't escalate!

The MOD version is significantly different - no warning shots and no bombs dropped.

The UK version of events is just the average FONOPS cruise. I really don't know why the Russians are reporting otherwise.

 

[John Fedup]

Here are some more details explaining the incident. Just the usual “noise”.

Was HMS Defender ‘targeted’ by the Russians in the Black Sea? | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

 

[spoz]

The bombing etc was the Russian story; the British story, supported by some video from the embedded reporter, was that while there was firing it was at a distance and apparently had been NtM'd as a live fire exercise some time ago. A lot of low fly bys and a bit of attempted shouldering by a Russian coast guard vessel (which appeared to not go very well, she was about 1/4 the size of Defender) and some verbal threats seem to have been the sum of it. Typical cold war stuff, in other words.

 

[ASSAIL]

That was the Russian story; the British story, supported by some video from an embedded reporter, was that while there was firing it was at a distance and apparently had been NtM'd as a live fire exercise some time ago. A lot of low fly bys and a bit of attempted shouldering by a Russian coast guard vessel (which appeared to not go very well, she was about 1/4 the size of Defender) and some verbal threats seem to have been the sum of it. Typical cold war stuff, in other words.

Time to strap railway tracks to the deck protruding a few metres as they used to do in the Cod wars.

 

[swerve]

As stated in the BBC article linked earlier Jonathan Beale, defense correspondent of the BBC, is onboard HMS Defender, and - with details - describes the situation as basically a fully intentional British FONOP.

Yep, but the RN can point to the start point (Odessa) & destination (Georgia). A straight line between them would go through Crimea. That's a bit impractical, so the normal route is to go a few km south of Crimea (keeping a safe distance from shore but no more) & change course as soon as you've rounded the cape.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

In other news, it looks like HMS Glasgow will be commissioned in 2026 rather than 2027.

See NAO report page 29.

"The Type 26 programme team reported in March 2021 that it forecasts achieving the in-service date for ship one 12 months sooner than forecast at the time of going on contract."

No complaints here if we get the Type 26s rolled out sooner.

 

[StobieWan]

Here are some more details explaining the incident. Just the usual “noise”.

Was HMS Defender ‘targeted’ by the Russians in the Black Sea? | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

I seem to recall the Russians did something similar with an AB in the Sea of Japan - the USN version was "innocent passage" and the Russian version was um..much more exciting.

Much shouting and pushing, accomplishing nothing, while demonstrating the calm professionalism of the RN I guess.

 

[StobieWan]

In other news, it looks like HMS Glasgow will be commissioned in 2026 rather than 2027.

See NAO report page 29.

"The Type 26 programme team reported in March 2021 that it forecasts achieving the in-service date for ship one 12 months sooner than forecast at the time of going on contract."

No complaints here if we get the Type 26s rolled out sooner.

Definitely not - they've had enough time to get on with it and the Type 23's are long in the tooth. Hopefully this will be replicated through the remaining ships.

 

[overlander]

So finally the incident between hms Defender and russians was true , I don,t understand why british m.o.d. takes so long time to recognise it.
Some russian warships and more than 20 fighters were harassing the british warship in the Black sea.

 

[swerve]

The MoD denied Russian claims that shots were fired across Defender's bows or bombs dropped in her path, & that they chased her out of Russian territorial waters. It didn't deny that Russian warships & aircraft were hassling her. That video doesn't show or mention any bombs being dropped. Video from the Russian coastguard vessel shows her gun being fired, but apparently pointed dead ahead - while sailing on the same course, parallel to Defender. The same video shows Defender sailing serenely on an unchanging course, ignoring Russian demands that she change course.

You can claim that the MoD's statements omitted information, but nothing in that video, or Russian videos, directly contradicts them.

 

[overlander]

The MoD denied Russian claims that shots were fired across Defender's bows or bombs dropped in her path, & that they chased her out of Russian territorial waters. It didn't deny that Russian warships & aircraft were hassling her. That video doesn't show or mention any bombs being dropped. Video from the Russian coastguard vessel shows her gun being fired, but apparently pointed dead ahead - while sailing on the same course, parallel to Defender. The same video shows Defender sailing serenely on an unchanging course, ignoring Russian demands that she change course.

You can claim that the MoD's statements omitted information, but nothing in that video, or Russian videos, directly contradicts them.

Russian news about situatión in the black sea are quite often fakes.

 

[kato]

There is one new thing the BBC video brings up, and that's that it's explicitly stated on one occasion that HMS Defender was within 12 nm of the shore - and thus not, as stated in other places in the video, in international waters.

 

[ngatimozart]

There is one new thing the BBC video brings up, and that's that it's explicitly stated on one occasion that HMS Defender was within 12 nm of the shore - and thus not, as stated in other places in the video, in international waters.

But the argument could be that they are inside Ukrainian waters because the Russian annexation of the Crimea isn't recognised under international law.

 

[StobieWan]

There is one new thing the BBC video brings up, and that's that it's explicitly stated on one occasion that HMS Defender was within 12 nm of the shore - and thus not, as stated in other places in the video, in international waters.

She was exercising innocent passage and therefore under international law could legally do so. You can hear the RN guy repeatedly say that in a very British "kindly sod off" sort of a way.

So, not a FONOP at all which was interesting.