General Naval News

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Intense dredging works and seasonal high tide finally do the tricks. Still this incident shown the upgrade works they are doing is not enough to handle all potential risk, from oversized ocean going tub that now just getting bigger and bigger.
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
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ULCV/UULCV’s are designed for optimum performance/control at around 20kts.
Rudders perform best at speed and begin to be less effective as speed decreases.
When in shallow water speed must be further reduced as the gap between the ships hull and the bottom reduces the flow of water particularly past the propellor and rudder and if speed is too high directional stability can be lost.
If extra power is used to correct wind sheer this will only exacerbate the situation and she may fail to answer her rudder al all and the only way to regain any control is to drastically reduce speed.
My gut feel is that a combination of wind sheer and over reaction to correct it possibly caused this accident.
Bang on in my view ... Analysis suggests it is a combination of canal effect and windage with too much speed (even though it was only 13 knots) to control the ship in the wind conditions. It appears the vessel deviated across the canal in the wind and the stern got sucked in. Not confirmed but some suggestion the vessel bridge crew (Pilot or Master) over corrected (and failed to counter the suction around the stern) with the ship then swinging quickly to Starboard pushing the bow into the other side of the canal. Inertia pushed the stern around and onto the sand.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Intense dredging works and seasonal high tide finally do the tricks. Still this incident shown the upgrade works they are doing is not enough to handle all potential risk, from oversized ocean going tub that now just getting bigger and bigger.
It feels like you haven't go to the toilet for a week because of obstipatie/constipatie, and then at last you can release the pressure...
Here an interesting video how it all went.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It feels like you haven't go to the toilet for a week because of obstipatie/constipatie, and then at last you can release the pressure...
Here an interesting video how it all went.
Pretty obvious in that video tracking that the ship lost control due to shallow water/canal effect. He got very close to the bank on three occasions before finally coming to grief. He started the transit at 9kts and increased to 14kts I presume because of the wind. I just checked the transit speeds of all other ships in the canal just now and 9kts seems the norm.
Shallow water effect when flows past the rudder weaken to become ineffective and the stern is sucked down (not obvious above) and canal effect where the water flows past the ships side react with the bank and the areas of suction aft have pulled the stern into the side of the canal.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
I've encountered both of those on a canal boat in narrow 200 year old English canals a few times. Increasing power does not necessarily increase speed or control when there's not much water around your hull. I've seen someone increase revs, & not understand why instead of speeding up, he's losing control. I've felt like shouting "Look at the water!", because on that scale you can easily see how the water you're displacing is flowing fast & turbulently (banks & bottom are never smooth) either side.

I remember being told when I was about 14 & being shown how to control my stepfather's boat "The speed limit here's 4 mph, but don't worry about it. You won't go any faster in this stretch anyway. Watch the wash & keep it down & you'll go smoothly."
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I've encountered both of those on a canal boat in narrow 200 year old English canals a few times. Increasing power does not necessarily increase speed or control when there's not much water around your hull. I've seen someone increase revs, & not understand why instead of speeding up, he's losing control. I've felt like shouting "Look at the water!", because on that scale you can easily see how the water you're displacing is flowing fast & turbulently (banks & bottom are never smooth) either side.

I remember being told when I was about14 & being shown how to control my stepfather's boat "The speed limit here's 4 mph, but don't worry about it. You won't go any faster in this stretch anyway. Watch the wash & keep it down & you'll go smoothly."
Had similar experiences on our Trent-Severn canal system. This system has forested areas adjacent in most areas so wind isn’t much of an issue for the most part. I think the master/pilot was between a rock and a hard place given the huge surface area and wind conditions. Had he maintained the lower speed what would happen? Perhaps a beam beaching which might have been easier to clear.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
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Had similar experiences on our Trent-Severn canal system. This system has forested areas adjacent in most areas so wind isn’t much of an issue for the most part. I think the master/pilot was between a rock and a hard place given the huge surface area and wind conditions. Had he maintained the lower speed what would happen? Perhaps a beam beaching which might have been easier to clear.
Actually a lower speed is part of the cure (but not too low). The faster you go the greater the pressure and suction areas. Once you get off the centreline and get you stern near the bank you are going to start seeing the stern being drawn to the bank. More speed and hard over is simply going to make it worse.

Worse still the thrusters on this thing would be ineffective at 14knots so you don't have that option to assist in controlling the bow (i,e thrust to stop the swing of the bow toward the far bank ... use rudder and propeller to provide lateral thrust the stern away from the near bank ..... but you need to slow down).

The windage on these ships is the big issue and the same vessel hit a ferry in 2019 in the Elbe River ... high winds appear to have been involved there. Not sure that thrusters and low speed would necessarily be enough in very high winds.

I served on a large general cargo container ship that transited the Suez every month and we always had power available to the thruster (mind you it was not the most impressive beast ever fitted to a ship) and were careful with the speed. Mind you we had a fraction of the windage of these ultra large box boats.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Actually a lower speed is part of the cure (but not too low). The faster you go the greater the pressure and suction areas. Once you get off the centreline and get you stern near the bank you are going to start seeing the stern being drawn to the bank. More speed and hard over is simply going to make it worse.

Worse still the thrusters on this thing would be ineffective at 14knots so you don't have that option to assist in controlling the bow (i,e thrust to stop the swing of the bow toward the far bank ... use rudder and propeller to provide lateral thrust the stern away from the near bank ..... but you need to slow down).

The windage on these ships is the big issue and the same vessel hit a ferry in 2019 in the Elbe River ... high winds appear to have been involved there. Not sure that thrusters and low speed would necessarily be enough in very high winds.

I served on a large general cargo container ship that transited the Suez every month and we always had power available to the thruster (mind you it was not the most impressive beast ever fitted to a ship) and were careful with the speed. Mind you we had a fraction of the windage of these ultra large box boats.
I would think the SCA would be thinking of regulation changes for these monsters.
Maybe it’s time to make tugs fore and aft compulsory for their transit, certainly if high winds are forecast.
I’m unaware of the wind patterns in the Canal Zone but I’m assuming the transit times for the 120 nms takes around a day including waiting times at the Bitter lakes?
The compulsory tug regs should be applied unrelated to weather forecasts.
The caveat here is that I have never transited Suez so speculation only.
 

alexsa

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I would think the SCA would be thinking of regulation changes for these monsters.
Maybe it’s time to make tugs fore and aft compulsory for their transit, certainly if high winds are forecast.
I’m unaware of the wind patterns in the Canal Zone but I’m assuming the transit times for the 120 nms takes around a day including waiting times at the Bitter lakes?
The compulsory tug regs should be applied unrelated to weather forecasts.
The caveat here is that I have never transited Suez so speculation only.
It has been a while for me and the duplication of some parts was a thought bubble when I was last there. I understand the duplication allowed the north and south convoys to cross over north of the Great Bitter lake to almost double the number of ships that can transit each day.

The transit time is reported as 10 to 11 hours. I think this is wrong (see below). Noting the link below, it is interesting that the authority actually specify a speed of 16kmh for normal vessels and 14kmh for tankers (why they do not use knots is beyond me). That is 8.6 knots and 7.6 knots respectively. I wonder why the Evergiven was at 13+ knots

At 10 hours transit for 120nm suggests they are doing at least 12 knots if this is going to happen in 10 hours????

SCA - Navigation System (suezcanal.gov.eg)

Edit ... my bad, that was 120 miles so 104 nautical miles (still going to be more than 10 hours if a 8 knot average is applied.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
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Now that the Suez grounding has been resolved, here’s an article suggesting the world should take note as the next choke point crisis might not be accidental.

As noted in the article, a time honoured naval tactic. The RN has a long and glorious history in the use of that strategy. IIRC the last was OP CHARIOT the 1942 raid on the Normandie drydock at St Nazaire, by ramming HMS Campbeltown into the drydock gates, then exploding the 4 tons of amatol hidden in the bow later.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The Icebreaker MPV Everest, that the Australian Antarctic Division has chartered while awaiting the arrival of its new Icebreaker Nuyina has suffered a fire in its port side engine while returning to Hobart. All 109 on board are safe and well and the Ship is currently headed for Perth which is the nearest Port at 9kt.
Further news on this incident, a support Vessel is going to be sent to aid her, what vessel this would be is yet to be determined. What if any Defence Vessels(either RAN or ADV) would be up to the task, I don’t know, that may depend on how close to Antarctica it will be.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
That's a lot......if its true.
I don't think that the operating costs of those tugs are that much.
A billion dollar shakedown that the insurance industry will take note of. Might make Putin’s Northern route more appealing.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

"Unlike some competitors, the interim (so called “stop gap”) solution proposed by Navantia does not consists in second-hand vessels but new ones. The Spanish shipbuilder’s proposal is to provide two brand new 3.000 t light frigates."
Its just ridiculous that they call 3000 t frigates "light frigates".
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A billion dollar shakedown that the insurance industry will take note of. Might make Putin’s Northern route more appealing.
Hardly a shakedown, that’s what insurance is for; you damage somebody else’s business and your insurance (hopefully) covers you - and certainly marine all risks normally covers ships owners for damages arising out of collisions, groundings etc. The issue might be who was held responsible; the ship’s master or the (mandatory) canal pilot?
 
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