Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
To be fair, considering the COVID situation and the indefinite lockdown, I wouldn't be surprised if any future fighter jet purchase is delayed by years. The main focus after COVID is economic recovery and rebuilding the education system. Fighter jets, while fancy as they are, takes a backseat.
Further delays on replacement will only inflate the cost. Canada’s defence obligations require modernizing the airforce and junior will have to commit to something new albeit probably the wrong pick. The deteriorating geopolitical environment will see allies applying pressure on Canada. The free ride days are over.
 

RoyZZConnor

Member
Further delays on replacement will only inflate the cost. Canada’s defence obligations require modernizing the airforce and junior will have to commit to something new albeit probably the wrong pick. The deteriorating geopolitical environment will see allies applying pressure on Canada. The free ride days are over.
Buying multi billion fighter jets in a pandemic with money they don't have while millions of Canadians suffer is a political no go. It'll get Trudeau voted out of office. Pressure or not, Canada is a sovereign country and the well being of the Canadian people come first.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
To be fair, considering the COVID situation and the indefinite lockdown, I wouldn't be surprised if any future fighter jet purchase is delayed by years. The main focus after COVID is economic recovery and rebuilding the education system. Fighter jets, while fancy as they are, takes a backseat.
Economic recovery requires production ramping up. Economic capacity is intact, but idled - like much of the education system. Orders for domestic manufacturing will help economic recovery, so if a fighter purchase has a large enough domestic component, it could be beneficial.

Education should get going again as soon as restrictions on gathering, travel etc. are gone.
 

RoyZZConnor

Member
Economic recovery requires production ramping up. Economic capacity is intact, but idled - like much of the education system. Orders for domestic manufacturing will help economic recovery, so if a fighter purchase has a large enough domestic component, it could be beneficial.

Education should get going again as soon as restrictions on gathering, travel etc. are gone.
In that case they shouldn't have killed off Avro Canada and Canada's vibrant aerospace industry in the 1950s. Now they will pay the consequences of their actions.


 

swerve

Super Moderator
They? Who are they? What current Canadian politicians had any part in that? Who of those responsible is still around to suffer consequences from their actions?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yes, but that is not what you said. You suggested that those who "killed off Avro Canada and Canada's vibrant aerospace industry in the 1950s . . . will pay the consequences of their actions". Who are these still-living (for if no longer living they can't "pay the consequences") people? Do tell.
 

RoyZZConnor

Member
Yes, but that is not what you said. You suggested that those who "killed off Avro Canada and Canada's vibrant aerospace industry in the 1950s . . . will pay the consequences of their actions". Who are these still-living (for if no longer living they can't "pay the consequences") people? Do tell.
They pay the consequence their descendants cannot get new fighter jets on time.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group

swerve

Super Moderator
Skimmed through, & can't see any mention of new or used. Says that any supplier should either be the manufacturer or authorised by the manufacturer, but Airbus has shown itself willing to supply used aircraft, selling two used A330s to France for tanker conversion. It makes money from support whether the aircraft is new or used, & AFAIK there's nobody else offering Airbus tanker conversions at the moment so it also gets the conversion work.

Boeing - I don't know. It's clobbered future Israeli conversions of 767s by refusing to support them & seems keen to push the KC-46.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Skimmed through, & can't see any mention of new or used. Says that any supplier should either be the manufacturer or authorised by the manufacturer, but Airbus has shown itself willing to supply used aircraft, selling two used A330s to France for tanker conversion. It makes money from support whether the aircraft is new or used, & AFAIK there's nobody else offering Airbus tanker conversions at the moment so it also gets the conversion work.

Boeing - I don't know. It's clobbered future Israeli conversions of 767s by refusing to support them & seems keen to push the KC-46.
WRT, yes I believe Israel has to now go the KC-46 route for the reason you mentioned. For the RCAF, I feel the MRTT is better value for money, especially if some good used A330s are available for conservation. If this were the case, a time sensitive offer on used used A330s that is price aggressive might be the one thing that could result in a timely procurement by one of the world’s worst military procurement operations.:(

I guess Boeing will have two KC-46 prices, the non SH price and the SH price, especially wrt to sustainment. A package deal with some P-8s would be nice too.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I think there are a lot of nearly new A330s currently available, but that can't be guaranteed to still be true when Canada's placing an order.

As I understand it, France got the two it's going to have converted from Airbus, which I assume had a customer which was glad to hand back a couple which were surplus to requirements because of COVID-19. I wouldn't be surprised if right now Airbus could find more such if there was a buyer ;)
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yep, the key is when are we prepared to move. The COVID crisis has created an opportunity for the RCAF (cruel but true) but I am pessimistic that junior’s crew can seize the moment.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yep, the key is when are we prepared to move. The COVID crisis has created an opportunity for the RCAF (cruel but true) but I am pessimistic that junior’s crew can seize the moment.
Air Canada operate 16 A330-300s and they will be hurting from COVID and financially stressed.
It would seem a good time for an purchase by your friend Trudeau just as RAAF snapped up its last two acquisitions from QANTAS if there was intent to expand the transport and AAR capability.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Air Canada operate 16 A330-300s and they will be hurting from COVID and financially stressed.
It would seem a good time for an purchase by your friend Trudeau just as RAAF snapped up its last two acquisitions from QANTAS if there was intent to expand the transport and AAR capability.
Actually Air Canada operates 13 jets of which 8 are owned. The average age of this fleet is 15.9 years. Thus there may be some opportunities depending on acceptable age requirements for conversion.

 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Actually Air Canada operates 13 jets of which 8 are owned. The average age of this fleet is 15.9 years. Thus there may be some opportunities depending on acceptable age requirements for conversion.

John,

You might find this interesting:


This is the list of KC-30A (A330-200) aircraft in RAAF service, you’ll notice that the list shows the five ‘new’ built airframes, and at the bottom the two additional ex Qantas aircraft, VH-EBI and -EBH, that were converted.

What’s also interesting is the Airbus construction numbers, the two ex Qantas aircraft are younger than the first built KC-30A and a little bit older than the four other new build aircraft.

Here’s another list you’ll find interesting too (you don’t need to log in, just click on and scroll down):


The Plane Spotters list shows the current status of the Qantas fleet, including A330-200 aircraft, you’ll notice that most of the -200 fleet are ‘parked’ at the moment (15 of 18 -200 series are parked).

You might want to send the list to your Def Min (Ha Ha!) and let him know that maybe they could buy a ‘job lot’ of ex Qantas aircraft, all built at approx the same time, same basic configuration.

Cheers,

Edit:

Just to be clear all A330MRTT/KC-30A aircraft are based on the -200 airframe, not the -300 airframe, if Canada was in the hunt for ‘pre loved’ aircraft, then -200 series would have to be the ones chosen, otherwise I’d imagine Airbus would have to test and recertify for pre loved -300 airframes adding to cost.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
@John Newman ... certainly seems to be some good availability on A330s. Hopefully junior doesn’t pass up on possibly better foreign A330 inventory merely to appease his friends at Air Canada.
 
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