Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Redlands18]

I chose the Braunschweig-class FSG quite deliberately, because I was trying to illustrate the differences between an OPV and a FS or FSG. I wanted to illustrate that because people keep bringing up ideas to up gun the OPV's as if they could then be turned into OCV's or FS/FSG's. Comparing two OPV's between each other is less useful for the purposes of pointing out the differences between what Australia selected and is building, vs. what or how people seem to think the OPV's could or should be used. In short, I wanted people to look at a warship and a patrol ship of roughly the same size.

As a side note, it would really be taking a step in the wrong direction if the RAN were to adopt a modern corvette design IMO. The distances that RAN vessels have to transit, and the potential sea conditions, really make something larger required than a corvette.

You just need to look at who operates Corvettes/OCVs, they are most popular amongst the Baltic, Middle Eastern and South East Asian Navies, that have small Littorals. Where the bases are near to or inside the expected Combat Zones, where they can operate under a AD Umbrella provided by friendly Air. Where a mission may only last a few days and its only a few hours back to base to resupply or effect any repairs needed.

 

[spoz]

Yeah, I know it's apples and oranges. But we do have southern interests, and although we have an actual ice breaker, I was just wondering. I admit my attention is not nearly as focused as the defence pro's here. I had not read the fact that the OPV wasn't going to go further than 50 degrees south. I did know that most of the OPV's are placed NE and NW though

These things are nominal, anyway - I'm sure they will go further south if required to but it probably wouldn't be all that pleasant an experience.

BTW, 50 south is about 160 miles south of Stewart Island in NZ; Heard Island is at about 53 south, and Macquarie Island about 54 - that is 180 and 240 miles south of 50 south. The difference in weather and sea conditions is likely to be minimal....

 

[Reptilia]

A few of those Russian or Canadian Arctic patrol ships would be nice for our patrols Further south

@Reptilla

I did warn you that you need to follow the Forum Rules. This includes no posting one line posts which you have done on a number of occasions. I note you have read the edit to your last post on this thread yet have not changed your behaviour.

This is your last warning.

Alexsa

 

[ngatimozart]

These things are nominal, anyway - I'm sure they will go further south if required to but it probably wouldn't be all that pleasant an experience.

BTW, 50 south is about 160 miles south of Stewart Island in NZ; Heard Island is at about 53 south, and Macquarie Island about 54 - that is 180 and 240 miles south of 50 south. The difference in weather and sea conditions is likely to be minimal....

Get some big seas down there. You are talking about the latitudes between the Auckland Islands and Stewart Island. I haven't ventured as far south as the Auckland Islands myself, but the RNZN and NIWA installed a wave buoy Campbell Island a whiles back and recorded waves in the region of 20 m wave height. The winds can be pretty ferocious as well, so the combination of wind and the wave climate can make a sailors life interesting. But it's just some roughers.

EDIT: Map & Reference added.

The map shows where the Auckland and Campbell Islands referred to are, with the Auckland Islands at 50° 48' 40"S and Campbell Island at 52° 33' 25"S.

Why Southern Ocean's monster waves will get even bigger

Monster waves below NZ as high as eight-storey buildings to grow even bigger this century.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[Depot Dog]

Wow the seas are so rough yet lone sailors racing yachts go that way. I'm thinking back to Tony Bullimore. The games Sea Shepherd plays with Japanese Whaling vessels. These people are either brave or stupid

 

[Todjaeger]

You just need to look at who operates Corvettes/OCVs, they are most popular amongst the Baltic, Middle Eastern and South East Asian Navies, that have small Littorals. Where the bases are near to or inside the expected Combat Zones, where they can operate under a AD Umbrella provided by friendly Air. Where a mission may only last a few days and its only a few hours back to base to resupply or effect any repairs needed.

I know, and yet some seem to keep thinking that there are viable paths to turn the OPV's essentially into corvettes, while ignoring the size, range and cost constraints. I am not opposed to the RAN getting more vessels, particularly if these extra vessels were actually able to provide useful capabilities in combat situations and/or in a conflict. The reality though is that an 'extra' vessels the RAN were to bring into the fleet are naturally going to require additional funding/resources, both to design and construct, and then once in service, operate, maintain, upgrade and especially crew.

That last bit, crew, I believe is a rather formidable obstacle to any major, rapid expansion of the fleet, short of a major war being declared and conscription reinstated.

 

[DDG38]

That last bit, crew, I believe is a rather formidable obstacle to any major, rapid expansion of the fleet, sort of a major war being declared and conscription reinstated.

This is the factor that so many "coulda woulda shoulda" commentators seem to regularly forget. It's all well and good to spend billions on upgraded platforms and shiny new weapon systems, but if you can't man and sustain them with people it's a complete waste of money. And recruiting and sustaining manning levels is a black art even when there's an economic downturn and you have people flocking to join up.

 

[magicbandit7]

Hi, I have a question regarding the ADV Ocean Protector and Large Salvage and Repair Vessel announced in the Strategic Update. Wouldn't it make sense to replace them with a single class of 2 vessels or at least derived from the same design? I was thinking along the lines of RFA Diligence and how it began life as an Offshore Support Vessel then turned into a Forward Repair Ship.

 

[Gryphinator]

This is the factor that so many "coulda woulda shoulda" commentators seem to regularly forget. It's all well and good to spend billions on upgraded platforms and shiny new weapon systems, but if you can't man and sustain them with people it's a complete waste of money. And recruiting and sustaining manning levels is a black art even when there's an economic downturn and you have people flocking to join up.

With regards to manning, I know they had a great year in regards to enlistment enquiries across the ADF in 2020, but did it actually convert to warm bodies in uniforms?
All the money that govt has been spending is great but can we operate effectively?
I also wondered if HMAS Perth is still up on blocks because of manning issues?

 

[John Newman]

This announcement about a Billion dollars being spent on Naval missiles etc, is'nt it just a re-hash of previous announcements? Can anyone point out what is new news?

A few days ago you asked if the $1b announcement was new or not.

It’s both yes and no:

https://www1.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-11/Factsheet_Maritime.pdf

This is a summary of maritime domain projects from the 2020 Strategic Update, released mid last year.

If you look at the list of projects on the right hand side, fourth from the bottom, you’ll see a project named “Maritime Guided Weapons”, it’s more likely to be a series of projects and phases that evolve and change over time.

This is an ongoing project, the time line for the project starts prior to 2020 and extends past 2040, the budget allowance ranging from $16.1b to $24.2b.

Whilst the $1b announcement the other day is a decent amount of money, it’s only a small part of the ‘up to’ $24.2b that has been allocated for future phases in the years to come.

The $1b will be more likely to be an initial investment in the weapons mentioned in the Def Mins press release and no doubt there will be further investments to increase stocks of those weapons and other weapons choices in the years ahead too.

Cheers,

 

[John Newman]

I also wondered if HMAS Perth is still up on blocks because of manning issues?

Perth is currently undergoing the AMCAP upgrade, she’s either the 4th or 5th Anzac FFH in line for the upgrade.

Upgrades to all eight ships is planned to be completed early 2024.

 

[SteveR]

This announcement about a Billion dollars being spent on Naval missiles etc, is'nt it just a re-hash of previous announcements? Can anyone point out what is new news?

I believe that there is more specification of the expected range of the missiles:

Defence to invest $1bn in new long-range missile capability

Royal Australian Navy vessels are set to be fitted with advanced anti-ship missiles as part of a new $1 billion investment announced by Defence Minister Linda Reynolds. The Commonwealth Government ha

www.defenceconnect.com.au

The anti-ship missiles launched from surface combatants are required to have a range of about 370Km or about 200nm. From what I read:

NSM – Naval Strike Missile – Missile Systems - KONGSBERG

NSM Naval Strike Missile (NSM)

www.kongsberg.com

that probably eliminates the Kongsberg NSM which has been selected by the USN for its LCS and its new FREMM based frigates and possibly the new SAAB RBS-15 Gungnir:

The RBS15 family | Saab

The RBS15 missile family offers the industry-leading abilities that make sure your forces are ready and able to address any conflict scenario, giving you the edge to stay ahead.

www.saab.com

 

[Pusser Tas]

Submarines : Non Penetrating Masts.

Masts and periscopes for air-surface detection | Safran Electronics & Defense

If one 'clicks' on the above you will be presented with an option to open the file.

 

[ngatimozart]

Wow the seas are so rough yet lone sailors racing yachts go that way. I'm thinking back to Tony Bullimore. The games Sea Shepherd plays with Japanese Whaling vessels. These people are either brave or stupid

Brave. Some go down to about 60°S from memory. The Whitbread and later round the world yacht races go down through there and around the tip of South America into the Atlantic. Sir Peter Blake did that race a few times.

 

[oldsig127]

Wow the seas are so rough yet lone sailors racing yachts go that way. I'm thinking back to Tony Bullimore. The games Sea Shepherd plays with Japanese Whaling vessels. These people are either brave or stupid

Lone sailors might go that way, but it's not all that smart. Bullimore and another competitor (Dubois) had to be rescued by the RAN after their vessels capsized. Not an environment to be taken lightly

oldsig

 

[John Newman]

I believe that there is more specification of the expected range of the missiles:

Defence to invest $1bn in new long-range missile capability

Royal Australian Navy vessels are set to be fitted with advanced anti-ship missiles as part of a new $1 billion investment announced by Defence Minister Linda Reynolds. The Commonwealth Government ha

www.defenceconnect.com.au

The anti-ship missiles launched from surface combatants are required to have a range of about 370Km or about 200nm. From what I read:

NSM – Naval Strike Missile – Missile Systems - KONGSBERG

NSM Naval Strike Missile (NSM)

www.kongsberg.com

that probably eliminates the Kongsberg NSM which has been selected by the USN for its LCS and its new FREMM based frigates and possibly the new SAAB RBS-15 Gungnir:

The RBS15 family | Saab

The RBS15 missile family offers the industry-leading abilities that make sure your forces are ready and able to address any conflict scenario, giving you the edge to stay ahead.

www.saab.com

This is what I posted at the time of the announcement (about three pages back):

* Continued investment in ESSM Blk2
* SM-2MR Blk IIIC - 150km range
* SM-6 Blk I - 240km range
* Anti Ship Missile - 370km range (LRASM?)
* Maritime Land Attack Missile - 1500km range (Tomahawk?)

It’s pretty reasonable to assume the 370km range missile is LRASM, it fits the reported range profile (LRASM also to be used by the RAAF).

I wouldn’t rule out NSM for selection in a future phase of the Maritime Guided Weapons project.

The RAN will operate three different types of SAMs, ESSM, SM-2 and SM-6, horses for courses.

It’s not unreasonable to assume they will also operate different types of AShM, VLS launched LRASM for long range heavy targets, and box launched NSM for shorter range lighter targets (NSM is probably more of a Harpoon replacement).

Cheers,

 

[oldsig127]

Submarines : Non Penetrating Masts.

Masts and periscopes for air-surface detection | Safran Electronics & Defense

If one 'clicks' on the above you will be presented with an option to open the file.

Yep. Those are the ones discussed before. They don't penetrate the pressure hull. They do break the water surface.

Making the most of masts and periscopes - Australian Defence Magazine

Only a handful of manufacturers have developed real end-to-end expertise in submarine masts and periscopes – there’s only one in France.

www.australiandefence.com.au

oldsig

 

[SteveR]

Lone sailors might go that way, but it's not all that smart. Bullimore and another competitor (Dubois) had to be rescued by the RAN after their vessels capsized. Not an environment to be taken lightly
oldsig

Actually they were found by the RAAF P-3s who homed in on the EPIRB transmissions using ESM. The Orion crew dropped a sonobuoy next to Bullimore's upturned hull and detected an osmosis pump working - enough evidence to get the RAN down there.

Dubois was saved by the RAAF P-3 dropping Lindholm kit with its dinghy upwind of him as he clung to the keel of his upturned yacht. The string of Lindholm equipment then blew down to him and he was able to get to the dinghy and inflate it. My recollection he was picked up by another yachtsman in the race who the dropped him off in Hobart.

 

[DDG38]

Dubois was saved by the RAAF P-3 dropping Lindholm kit with its dinghy upwind of him as he clung to the keel of his upturned yacht. The string of Lindholm equipment then blew down to him and he was able to get to the dinghy and inflate it. My recollection he was picked up by another yachtsman in the race who the dropped him off in Hobart.

Nope Dubois was rescued by HMAS Adelaide's Seahawk before they continued on to rescue Bullimore via RHIB.

 

[oldsig127]

Nope Dubois was rescued by HMAS Adelaide's Seahawk before they continued on to rescue Bullimore via RHIB.

Yes, and while it is true that the RAAF found Bullimore it's neither here nor there in the context of sailing in those latitudes and the capacity to actually pick dumb ar$es out of the roughers.

oldsig