Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Redlands18]

Why wouldn’t they ditch plan A? It is possible The way things are going. The cost keeps going up, the time frame keeps getting pushed back, etc etc
350 mill to ditch the contract now and potentially purchase 12 a26ER much cheaper with all the trimmings the attack class has without the pump jet and a 1/3 less range(which is what we have now and That’s enough for what we need). and with a shortened build time And less crew required
hopefully the extra $ goes into establishing 3 sub full cycle docking facilities, east, south and west so we can get more subs in the future. A future that will unlikely have manned subs after 2060.
+ 3 Virginia class down the track either owned or loaned based in the north and maintained by the U.S if policies change.

Hullo and welcome to Defencetalk. There are 2 Subjects on this thread that have been banned by the Mods, RAN Aircraft Carriers and Nuclear Powered Subs. They have been discussed to death on here and the Mods will come down like a ton of Bricks over it. Go back through this thread and all the answers to your questions can be found by doing some reading, there are people on here who have been very heavily involved with the RAN, its the best education you can find on the ADF as a whole but especially the RAN.

 

[ADMk2]

Yes it is, but MTCR controlled weapons are those with payloads over 500 kg ( and ranges in excess of 300 km) so stay under 500 kg and you are OK. Tomahawk is 450 kg and so is LRASM - therefore if they are the missiles being considered you are OK.

Besides which, the threats these weapons are intended in part to address, routinely ignore any sort of shackles on such weapons capability, so to be perfectly honest, I’d hardly be concerned if we chose to ignore such restrictions...

 

[76mmGuns]

I have a question about the Arafura and Aussie OPV routes. Do they ever go very far south? And will the heavier tonnage of the Arafura mean they will head into colder waters that the previous patrol boats couldn't, being about 280 tonnes? I ask, because the Norwegian ice capable OPV article came up on a blog I follow, and it is one big and heavy ship!

Norway’s Coast Guard Jan Mayen-class vessel

We have some new information on Norway’s three new very large ice capable Arctic patrol ships. Naval News reports they will be equipped with inertial navigation systems and we have the artist…

chuckhillscgblog.net

“Deliveries of the three vessels are scheduled from Vard Langsten in Norway in 1Q 2022, 1Q 2023 and 1Q 2024 respectively. The hulls will be built at Vard’s Tulcea, Romania, shipyard…”

Specifications are:

• Displacement: 9,800 tons
• Length: 136.4 meters (447.4 ft) loa
• Beam: 22 meters (72.16 ft)
• Draft: 6.2 meter (20.3 ft)
• Speed: 22 knots.

 

[DDG38]

I have a question about the Arafura and Aussie OPV routes. Do they ever go very far south? And will the heavier tonnage of the Arafura mean they will head into colder waters that the previous patrol boats couldn't, being about 280 tonnes? I ask, because the Norwegian ice capable OPV article came up on a blog I follow, and it is one big and heavy ship!

Not generally, apart from fairly rare Bass Strait patrols. Bit of an apples and oranges comparison between what the RAN is building and what the Norwegian Navy, very different requirements. Last time the RAN went deep into the Southern Ocean was chasing toothfish poachers and that was in an Anzac.

 

[Reptilia]

Can I ask what RAN vessel is best equipped to deal with the plethora of mini sub drones coming our way?

 

[Boagrius]

Can I ask what RAN vessel is best equipped to deal with the plethora of mini sub drones coming our way?

Which "mini sub drones" are you referring to?

 

[oldsig127]

Not generally, apart from fairly rare Bass Strait patrols. Bit of an apples and oranges comparison between what the RAN is building and what the Norwegian Navy, very different requirements. Last time the RAN went deep into the Southern Ocean was chasing toothfish poachers and that was in an Anzac.

It's also true that the requirement for the OPVs specified that they would not be employed further south than (approximately) the latitude of Stewart Island, say 48°S

I don't recall the detail, but it'll be in the forum somewhere

oldsig

 

[Reptilia]

Which "mini sub drones" are you referring to?

The ones that keep getting picked up by fisherman in indonesia, vietnam and the phillipines with no trace markings.

 

[Boagrius]

The ones that keep getting picked up by fisherman in indonesia, vietnam and the phillipines with no trace markings.

Not sure how much can be done about UUVs like that in peace time. At any rate I think you will find that ASW is a system of systems event, so asking which specific platform can provide the answer may well be asking the wrong question.

 

[Reptilia]

Not sure how much can be done about UUVs like that in peace time. At any rate I think you will find that ASW is a system of systems event, so asking which specific platform can provide the answer may well be asking the wrong question.

IMO the 12-20 OPVs with upgrades will be the platform to deal with these in the future. I have heard some parts of UUVs have already been picked up north of Karratha and Exmouth

 

[Boagrius]

IMO the 12-20 OPVs with upgrades will be the platform to deal with these in the future. I have heard some parts of UUVs have already been picked up north of Karratha and Exmouth

Maybe, but then again maybe not. As has been said earlier, the OPVs have been set on a chiefly constabulary trajectory. As I alluded to earlier, it would be a mistake to think any one platform is going to hold the answer here. For example, there is a decent read on the subject starting on p43 of CSBA's "Taking Back The Seas" paper:

https://csbaonline.org/uploads/documents/Taking_Back_the_Seas_WEB.pdf

I use this mostly for illustrative purposes, but I suspect the sub-surface domain will demand the contribution of a whole array of platforms and capabilities, ranging from the ANZACs and the Hunters, to any UUVs the latter may be able to bring with it, to Romeo, Poseidon, Collins, Attack... the list could go on and on.

 

[Reptilia]

I think the opvs won’t be just carrying UVA’s but UUV’s also.
with such rapid advancement in both lithium ion and solid state batteries, we could see a tripling of uuv’s range and endurance within the next decade.

@Reptilla

You appear to be asking spurious questions, making unsupported claims and covering a lot of old ground that has been dealt with before. You should note any planned response to drones would not be in the public domain in any case.

You have been given some good advice. If you posting behaviour does not improve action will be taken. Please read the Forum Rules

Please do some research and make sure you can back any claim you make. You can start with providing a source on the claim that parts of UUV have been found in Karratha and Exmouth

Alexsa

 

[spoz]

It's also true that the requirement for the OPVs specified that they would not be employed further south than (approximately) the latitude of Stewart Island, say 48°S

I don't recall the detail, but it'll be in the forum somewhere

oldsig

The requirement for the Arafura was specified in the open press at the time of selection as 50 south.

 

[oldsig127]

The requirement for the Arafura was specified in the open press at the time of selection as 50 south.

So there you go. At my age and with my memory, only being out by 2 degrees of latitude counts as superb navigation.

oldsig

 

[Antipode]

Hello friends

Is there any news on Arafura's flight deck capability? It seems to me as more important for its mission than the addition of heavier weapon systems. Are man portable ATGMs normally packed aboard Australian OPVs? Thank you for any insights on this.

I agree with Todjaeger over the convenience of way bigger platforms than corvettes for high intensity naval warfare. There is a new design proposal for a high end European corvette, but I can't envision the participant nations, or any able to choose, selecting it for its navies, when they can get say a F110, FREMM derivate, Type 31..

A VLCs and high end radar corvette would cost less only initially, fulfilling the same roles with constricted capability. IMHO even light frigates look just big enough to pack so many, so expensive systems.

Salud!

 

[kato]

Side note, the corvette crew is ~50% greater than the OPV.

It is also built for an entirely different environment and threat scenario.

A better comparison for the Arafura would be the German Federal Police Potsdam class OPVs.

They're 86m 1,890-ton OPVs directly derived from the Fassmer OPV80 sold to Chile and Colombia, with the design minimally enlarged and updated with extreme automatization (... with only 14 crew left onboard for the ship, plus an extra 5 if a helo is embarked). The class is intended for much the same purposes (sans MCM), and rather similarly armed and equipped.

Due to being part of the Federal Police as part of their contribution to the German Coast Guard their role is a bit more publicly decided and not open to questioning - there's zero intention or real possibility of ever upgunning them or using them for other purposes.

Budget for the Potsdam class was 60 million Euro per ship including 5 million for the 57mm gun onboard - or in other words one-third the cost of the Arafura.

Main difference in cost drivers is
a) no flex deck per se - there is space reserve for something similar in the design around the boat deck, although on smaller scale, the South American ships can fit three TEU there -,
b) the design having been pretty much bought off-the-shelf from the catalogue, and
c) no tactical combat management system of military scale or related sensor or electronic warfare systems - rather "normal" radar, plus a relatively cheap fully integrated EO solution for fire control of the main gun. Besides general surveillance, policing and interception the ships may primarily be used in tactical insertion scenarios for effectively platoon-sized SWAT units with spare accomodation capacity for that purpose.

 

[spoz]

There are a number of other cost drivers that are not obvious - different ILS approaches, infrastructure development costs, training costs et al, all of which make its (as usual) difficult to be in any way sure that an apples-for-apples comparison is being made between what nations say they pay for ships.

 

[ASSAIL]

It is also built for an entirely different environment and threat scenario.

A better comparison for the Arafura would be the German Federal Police Potsdam class OPVs.

They're 86m 1,890-ton OPVs directly derived from the Fassmer OPV80 sold to Chile and Colombia, with the design minimally enlarged and updated with extreme automatization (... with only 14 crew left onboard for the ship, plus an extra 5 if a helo is embarked). The class is intended for much the same purposes (sans MCM), and rather similarly armed and equipped.

Due to being part of the Federal Police as part of their contribution to the German Coast Guard their role is a bit more publicly decided and not open to questioning - there's zero intention or real possibility of ever upgunning them or using them for other purposes.

Budget for the Potsdam class was 60 million Euro per ship including 5 million for the 57mm gun onboard - or in other words one-third the cost of the Arafura.

Main difference in cost drivers is
a) no flex deck per se - there is space reserve for something similar in the design around the boat deck, although on smaller scale, the South American ships can fit three TEU there -,
b) the design having been pretty much bought off-the-shelf from the catalogue, and
c) no tactical combat management system of military scale or related sensor or electronic warfare systems - rather "normal" radar, plus a relatively cheap fully integrated EO solution for fire control of the main gun. Besides general surveillance, policing and interception the ships may primarily be used in tactical insertion scenarios for effectively platoon-sized SWAT units with spare accomodation capacity for that purpose.

I like the Fassmer 80 and rather hoped it would be down selected for SEA1180.
It seems a more substantial and flexible vessel, particularly its helo capability/hanger which has many applications other than just a garage.

 

[Todjaeger]

It is also built for an entirely different environment and threat scenario.

A better comparison for the Arafura would be the German Federal Police Potsdam class OPVs.

They're 86m 1,890-ton OPVs directly derived from the Fassmer OPV80 sold to Chile and Colombia, with the design minimally enlarged and updated with extreme automatization (... with only 14 crew left onboard for the ship, plus an extra 5 if a helo is embarked). The class is intended for much the same purposes (sans MCM), and rather similarly armed and equipped.

Due to being part of the Federal Police as part of their contribution to the German Coast Guard their role is a bit more publicly decided and not open to questioning - there's zero intention or real possibility of ever upgunning them or using them for other purposes.

Budget for the Potsdam class was 60 million Euro per ship including 5 million for the 57mm gun onboard - or in other words one-third the cost of the Arafura.

Main difference in cost drivers is
a) no flex deck per se - there is space reserve for something similar in the design around the boat deck, although on smaller scale, the South American ships can fit three TEU there -,
b) the design having been pretty much bought off-the-shelf from the catalogue, and
c) no tactical combat management system of military scale or related sensor or electronic warfare systems - rather "normal" radar, plus a relatively cheap fully integrated EO solution for fire control of the main gun. Besides general surveillance, policing and interception the ships may primarily be used in tactical insertion scenarios for effectively platoon-sized SWAT units with spare accomodation capacity for that purpose.

I chose the Braunschweig-class FSG quite deliberately, because I was trying to illustrate the differences between an OPV and a FS or FSG. I wanted to illustrate that because people keep bringing up ideas to up gun the OPV's as if they could then be turned into OCV's or FS/FSG's. Comparing two OPV's between each other is less useful for the purposes of pointing out the differences between what Australia selected and is building, vs. what or how people seem to think the OPV's could or should be used. In short, I wanted people to look at a warship and a patrol ship of roughly the same size.

As a side note, it would really be taking a step in the wrong direction if the RAN were to adopt a modern corvette design IMO. The distances that RAN vessels have to transit, and the potential sea conditions, really make something larger required than a corvette.

 

[76mmGuns]

Not generally, apart from fairly rare Bass Strait patrols. Bit of an apples and oranges comparison between what the RAN is building and what the Norwegian Navy, very different requirements. Last time the RAN went deep into the Southern Ocean was chasing toothfish poachers and that was in an Anzac.

Yeah, I know it's apples and oranges. But we do have southern interests, and although we have an actual ice breaker, I was just wondering. I admit my attention is not nearly as focused as the defence pro's here. I had not read the fact that the OPV wasn't going to go further than 50 degrees south. I did know that most of the OPV's are placed NE and NW though