They say the replacements are of equivalent quality and performance and everything is aboveboard and according to procedure. There is nothing to question. Move along.
Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates
- Thread starter gforce
- Start date
1. Totally agree with your comprehensive reply — really appreciate your effort to be fair and balanced to the Koreans and Pinoys. Thanks to the man made islands in the South China Sea, the PLA(N)’s KQ-200 MPAs are able to refuel and operate for extended periods there to track the numerous American, Malaysian (2), and Vietnamese (6) submarines.
2. Given that the toothless Gregorio del Pillar Class OPVs have yet to install the AN/SPS-77 Sea Giraffe AMB 3D radar (given by the US), and the poor sensor and weapons fit of the Jose Rizal-class, it is safe to say the Pinoys are not serious or effective in upgrading their navy’s capabilities. That is why in any Philippine military procurement attempt there are local politicians whose interest it is to get a cut or else they will stop the deal.
(i) The Philippines has fallen 14 places in a year in Transparency International's 2020 corruption perceptions index, which was published in Jan 2020. A place Duterte was elected to clean up in 2016 now ranks 113th, on par with Kazakhstan and Zambia.
(ii) The Philippines has fallen 18 rungs in total on Duterte's watch. Many worry Duterte is merely empowering a new business elite -- his own, known as "Dutertegarchs" -- and worsening the extreme concentration of wealth and power among a handful of landowning families.
3. In 2014, HHI Chairman Lee Jai-seong and some 150 executives from affiliates of the world's biggest shipbuilder by sales adopted a resolution not to give or take bribes. The HHI quote to win the contract was professionally done. If there is any bribes, I would be willing to bet HHI was given a choice behind the scenes — pay the corrupt Pinoys and continue the contract or lose money due to endless delays created by the Pinoys. But of course, I have no evidence of this sort.
4. I think this is a good way forward for HHI and it meets the Duterte Davos gang’s needs. The corruption levels in the Philippines is very high and they tend to blame others for their culture of corruption — in this case, I really don’t know who is telling the truth; and who is really at fault. I would chalk it up to inexperience by the Pinoys in military procurement.
(i) MaxDefense has written about some of these hidden moves in Facebook and elsewhere — where he tries to blame HHI for the issues relating to link 16 (which are beyond Korean control) and the space allocation for the FFBNW towed array (which seems to be a demand for an unpaid engineering change request).
(a) The Koreans are really trying to solve it and even gave the Pinoys “a sovereign guarantee to support the guarantee given by the contractor.” HHI promised in 2017 to make Hanwha Systems’ Naval Shield ICMS compatible with Link 16 by 2019 or before the first Philippine frigate was delivered. But so far, it has yet to officially meet this requirement.
(b) In this case, I don’t see HHI as causing this problem — rather I suspect they are the victim of a squeeze play by the Duterte Davos gang. Having taken away HHI’s margins, it can’t be realistic of the Pinoys to demand more changes when the Philippine Navy have even not bought or finalised the FFBNW towed sonar.
(ii) When the time comes, they have to pay for an engineering change request. It’s TWG’s fault for not specifying the type of towed sonar at the design stage.
5. I suspect if anyone is to blame it is the Pinoys but tonnyc will have better insight than me. As he said, “the whole thing is FUBAR, but there are people who did try their best but was stymied by their superiors both military and civilian.” I hope he will explain these allegations against the shipbuilder to me, as I don’t want to take blogger comments at face value.
6. Given that the Chinese Navy added 119 ships since 2005, being a US ally is not the possession of magical immunity idol — like many Pinoys seem to think.
- The defence of Korea for example is a Korean responsibility. The Prime Ministers of Australia and Japan will treat North and South with proper care and be carefully balanced in their responses to ROK. Australian and Japanese responses to Mar 2010 ROKS Cheonan sinking and Nov 2010 bombardment of Yeonpyeong in Korea, were carefully balanced.
- These incidents with a US ally demonstrated that if the stakes are high enough, no one really dares to or wants to escalate — keeping in mind that North Korea maintains nearly 6,000 artillery systems within range of major South Korean population centers, which it could use to kill many thousands in just an hour, even without resorting to chemical or nuclear weapons. Rand researchers assessed the magnitude of this threat in 2020.
- Being prepared matters. If the PLA(N) sinks a Pinoy navy boat, no war is expected as they are not prepared to respond. It is up to the Philippine Navy to develop the capability to shoot back. If they can’t do it, they will just have to back down in a confrontation. India found this out the hard way, when 20 of their soldiers well clubbed to death by the PLA at their border.
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I'm not at all sure of that "keeping in mind that North Korea maintains nearly 6,000 artillery systems within range of major South Korean population centers". Looking at the estimated ranges, & the location of major population centres near the DMZ, that could be hard. It might require, for example, masses of medium-range artillery packed into some very small areas, able to target fairly small parts of a major population centre (e.g. some northern suburbs of Seoul), & leaving artillery thinly spread or limited to short-range weapons along most of the DMZ.
That's not to downplay the threat: there are still very large numbers of N. Korean guns & rocket launchers that can hit deep into Seoul - but not 6000, unless the DPRK has more long-range artillery than published estimates give.
That's not to downplay the threat: there are still very large numbers of N. Korean guns & rocket launchers that can hit deep into Seoul - but not 6000, unless the DPRK has more long-range artillery than published estimates give.
Wow you're right! I always hear that the DPRK has thousands of artillery pieces aimed at Seoul. But I just took a gander at google maps and the main metropolitan area is still 25 to 30 Km from the border. And although there are other big inhabited areas closer to the border, to rain down shells on Seoul they'd have to shoot pretty far. For normal ammunition they should be just in range of their heavy guns and indeed their rocket artillery.
However, as we can all agree, pointing artillery at someones civilian population is pretty aggressive behavior. And despite some problems the South Koreans have constructed a nation that can face and respond to such threats. Sadly there's much less of that in the Philippines. We can lament the corruption, as we should, but there's also corruption in Korea. Is their success just because their pie is bigger?
I think not, there are plenty of countries that are not so lavishly funded that still manage to present a credible defense to answer threats to the safety and prosperity of their population. But the Philippines are just in the last few years decommissioning WW2 era ships. And while it's certainly commendable that their crews have kept them at sea for so long. It is just irresponsible of their political overlords to not have replaced these ships long ago.
And if we look at the threats they are facing I can't blame anyone for thinking it's a lost cause to deal with China in the South China Sea. Their navy is one thing and they've built a very impressive armada over the past few decades. But their other "naval" forces are at least (if not more) impressive! The China Coast Guard has a lot of large long range patrol vessels that very much look to be a match of many naval ships in the area. But their enormous fleet of fishing boats loaded with angry "reservists" is maybe the scariest tool the Philippines navy will have to contend with.
That's the crazy thing, that one fishing boat that rams your ship. Has the backing of all that other force and you know they are just there to provoke and stake their claim. And it's hard to see how things could get better in the weird political climate the Philippines finds itself. I think there's little they could do if China chose to start building closer to their shores. And those island bases of the Chinese do look mighty impressive, so when they're established it might take a lot to reverse the situation.
@swerve and @Toptob, the link to the Rand estimates of civilian casualties from a North Korean artillery attack is provided in the Korean Peninsula Developments thread. Can we discuss this there? My comment on it here was a by the way statement to illustrate a conceptual point that an attack resulting in deaths do not always result in a substantial retaliation (be it the sinking of a warship or an artillery attack), if the stakes are high enough.
For good order, I have copied your posts there and you can check out the link and express yourself there for anything Korean related. Many thanks.
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You're absolutely right @OPSSG. We've seen the South China Sea blow up over the last decade(s) and there have been a number of ships that have been sunk, territory that has been occupied and lives that have been lost. So the price that China has put on a potential conflict is pretty high and rising as we speak.
But it still is disheartening to see how the Filipino leadership reacts to these provocations.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Unarmed, but at least the Philippines will get two 94-meter-of-presence-vessels in the near future to patrol the West-Philippine Sea / Spratly Sea.
www.navalnews.com
Rohde & Schwarz contributes to enhanced maritime safety in the Philippines - Naval News
Rohde & Schwarz contracted to provide secure communications and direction finding systems fortwo 94 meter multi-role response vessels (MRRV) for the Philippine Coast Guard.
www.navalnews.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Lorenzana prefers more SoKor-donated ships for Navy
MANILA – Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Tuesday said he prefers to acquire naval vessels recently retired by South Korea as these are operational and could quickly be put into service with the Philippine Navy (PN).He made this comment when asked whether South Korea is still...
www.pna.gov.ph
So, Philippines Defense Minister wants more decommissioned Pohang class Corvettes. Well they have to give some business concession to ROK. Nothing really free in this world.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
The Philippine government wishes and receives a lot of free donations, but the point is not only getting things heavily discounted or for free. The real thing to think about is, does the Philippine government has the willingness to spend money on maintenance? Looking to the Gregorio del Pillar class frigates/cutters, it seems that there is a lack of willingness to take care of their defence equipment.Lorenzana prefers more SoKor-donated ships for Navy
MANILA – Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Tuesday said he prefers to acquire naval vessels recently retired by South Korea as these are operational and could quickly be put into service with the Philippine Navy (PN).He made this comment when asked whether South Korea is still...
So, Philippines Defense Minister wants more decommissioned Pohang class Corvettes. Well they have to give some business concession to ROK. Nothing really free in this world.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
They do upgrade project for Jacinto/ex RN Peacock class. However I do agree that their efforts to do upgrade on those ex USCG Cutter, bit questionable.
Both Hamilton and Pohang are CODAG, thus it's not as economical to run compared to their New Frigates or even Jacinto class. I don't know if this is one of the factor that theyre contemplating.
On the other hand, they still can got perhaps another 10-20 years for those Pohang Corvettes. Seems I remember reading from Max Defense that they are planning to upgrade to Pohang.
Both Hamilton and Pohang are CODAG, thus it's not as economical to run compared to their New Frigates or even Jacinto class. I don't know if this is one of the factor that theyre contemplating.
On the other hand, they still can got perhaps another 10-20 years for those Pohang Corvettes. Seems I remember reading from Max Defense that they are planning to upgrade to Pohang.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Not only perfect to keep an eye on the terrorists in the southern part of the Philippines, but also very usable to patrol above Philippines' territorial waters and EEZ.
I wonder when the ScanEagles for Indonesia are delivered.
Philippine Navy Takes Delivery Of Eight ScanEagle UAV
The Philippine Navy today took delivery of a ScanEagle Unmanned Aerial System (UAS) from the United State at the US Embassy in Manila. According to local media the UAS consists in eight Unmanned Aircraft Vehicles (UAV).
www.navalnews.com
I wonder when the ScanEagles for Indonesia are delivered.
Philippine Navy Takes Delivery Of Eight ScanEagle UAV
The Philippine Navy today took delivery of a ScanEagle Unmanned Aerial System (UAS) from the United State at the US Embassy in Manila. According to local media the UAS consists in eight Unmanned Aircraft Vehicles (UAV).
Philippine Navy Takes Delivery Of Eight ScanEagle UAV - Naval News
The Philippine Navy today took delivery of a ScanEagle Unmanned Aerial System (UAS) from the United State at the US Embassy in Manila. According to local media the UAS consists in eight Unmanned Aircraft Vehicles (UAV).
www.navalnews.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
So as Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Teddy Locsin Jr should put something in merit on his Twitter. After all he's the face of Philippines Diplomacy. However as he's not the Secretary of Defense, then is this only part of negotiations or already a deal ?
Perhaps he's want to shown Philippines administration are more serious in Defense.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thats very suddenly... as far as i know there were no serious negotiations between the Philippines and France, let alone a contract. Just "interested in", "requirements" and "we wish to's".
It will be the greatest defence acquisition of the Philippines ever if its true, but its highly unlikely. Even more unlikely than that Indonesia suddenly sign a contract to order two submarines.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Max Defense saying that Philippines MinDef still want to deal with DSME, while at same time they also already doing some submarine crew training with French Facilities.
I don't know, sometimes Philippines procurement can shown fast track, like the Radars and coast guard vessels from Japan and those S70i. Guess just like Indonesia, it depends on the packages and 'diplomatic' lobby.
I don't know, sometimes Philippines procurement can shown fast track, like the Radars and coast guard vessels from Japan and those S70i. Guess just like Indonesia, it depends on the packages and 'diplomatic' lobby.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Its nice to see that the Philippine Navy will soon receive the second FFBNW-frigate.
The 2016 contract has a value of about $ 311 million, this price is for the two ships only, without weapons systems.
www.navalnews.com
The 2016 contract has a value of about $ 311 million, this price is for the two ships only, without weapons systems.
HHI Delivers 2nd Jose Rizal-class Frigate to Philippine Navy Ahead of Schedule - Naval News
The Philippine Navy (PN) announced that it has approved for delivery and acceptance the future BRP Antonio Luna (FF151) from South Korean shipbuilder Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI).
www.navalnews.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Australia, PHL to sign framework agreement for OPV acquisition project
Australian Ambassador to the Philippines Steven Robinson AO has said that the Australian government and the Department of National Defense (DND) will sign an a
www.mintfo.com
Seems Austal with their yard in Philippines will got the contract for the OPV. In my opinion, it's predicted as Philippines also wants to encourage development of domestic yards.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Philippines signs agreement with India for world's fastest supersonic missiles
The system would boost military firepower in the face of threats to its maritime territory in the South China Sea. Read more at straitstimes.com.
Philippines sign agreement with India for Brahmos Supersonic Missiles. Brahmos can be classified as Cruise Missiles, with that range. Seems Philippines will used it as Land Based Defense. It will be interesting to see how they're going to provide mid range correction guidance. One of the reason that I heard Indonesia not further pursuing Yakhont Missiles for TNI-AL (the supersonic missile that Brahmos based on), is the lack of effective capabilities for mid range correction in current TNI-AL capabilities.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
After receiving the USS Cyclone PC-1 / General Mariano Alvarez PS-38 in 2004, the Philippine Navy (PN) has expressed interest in acquiring some more of the Cyclone-class patrol vessels recently decommissioned by the US Navy.
Well, maybe its better to keep the limited budget for maintenance of their current fleet and completing their FFBNW-vessels.
www.janes.com
Well, maybe its better to keep the limited budget for maintenance of their current fleet and completing their FFBNW-vessels.
Philippine Navy interested in acquiring ex-USN Cyclone-class patrol vessels
The Philippine Navy (PN) has expressed interest in acquiring some of the Cyclone-class patrol vessels recently decommissioned by the US Navy (USN), according to a 9...
www.janes.com
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
According to information published by the Philippine Ministry of Defense on May 2021, Philippine Navy confirms the acquisition of six OPVs (Offshore Patrol Vessels) in Horizon 2 of the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) Modernization Program.
The AFP Modernization Program has three horizons. Horizon 1 started in 2013 and ended in 2017 while Horizon 2 is from 2018 to 2022 while Horizon 3 is slated from 2023 to 2028.
Among those earlier included in Horizon 2 are the acquisition of fast-attack interdictor craft missile (FAIC-M), landing docks, air search radars, and other external defense equipment. The OPVs are expected to replace the World War II ships that were earlier retired by the PN.
www.navyrecognition.com
So the missile-capable fast attack interdiction craft (FAIC-M) will be delivered by Israel and the OPVs by Australia.
The DND put the award’s contract value of the 8 FAIC-M at USD127,9 million, including upgrade works to PN facilities, as Janes reported.
www.janes.com
The Austal OPV for Philippine Navy will have a length of 83 m, a beam of 13.3 m and a draft of 4 m. She will reach a maximum top speed of 22 knots (41 km/h) with a maximum cruising range of 3,500 nautical miles (6,482 km) at a maximum speed of 12 knots (22 km/h).
The Shaldag Mk V boats will have a length of 32,65 m and a beam of 6,20 m. The boats will reach a maximum top speed of 40 knots with a maximum cruising range of 1000 nautical miles (6482 km) at a cruise speed of 12 knots (22 km/h).
The AFP Modernization Program has three horizons. Horizon 1 started in 2013 and ended in 2017 while Horizon 2 is from 2018 to 2022 while Horizon 3 is slated from 2023 to 2028.
Among those earlier included in Horizon 2 are the acquisition of fast-attack interdictor craft missile (FAIC-M), landing docks, air search radars, and other external defense equipment. The OPVs are expected to replace the World War II ships that were earlier retired by the PN.
Philippine Navy confirms acquisition of six new OPV Offshore Patrol Ve
According to information published by the Philippine Ministry of Defense on May 2021, Philippine Navy confirms the acquisition of six OPVs (Offshore Patrol
www.navyrecognition.com
So the missile-capable fast attack interdiction craft (FAIC-M) will be delivered by Israel and the OPVs by Australia.
The DND put the award’s contract value of the 8 FAIC-M at USD127,9 million, including upgrade works to PN facilities, as Janes reported.
Israel Shipyards to supply Shaldag Mk V fast patrol boats to Philippine Navy
Israel Shipyards announced on 12 May that it has won a tender to supply Shaldag Mk V fast patrol boats to the navy of an East Asian country, which Janes understands to...
www.janes.com
The Austal OPV for Philippine Navy will have a length of 83 m, a beam of 13.3 m and a draft of 4 m. She will reach a maximum top speed of 22 knots (41 km/h) with a maximum cruising range of 3,500 nautical miles (6,482 km) at a maximum speed of 12 knots (22 km/h).
The Shaldag Mk V boats will have a length of 32,65 m and a beam of 6,20 m. The boats will reach a maximum top speed of 40 knots with a maximum cruising range of 1000 nautical miles (6482 km) at a cruise speed of 12 knots (22 km/h).
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
If they manage to stick with the order, then it's good not only for Philippines Navy fleet development, but also their domestic yards involvement. Austal Philippines should be involved more on PN or Maritime Security Projects.