French Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace News & Discussion

[swerve]

What Waylander says.

Headline figure for an aircraft purchase is meaningless. It can be, as he says, from airframes & a subset of systems (excluding engines!) up to a complete package including spare engines, enough spare parts to support operations for years, maintenance equipment, training (flight & ground crew), simulators, on site support personnel from the provider, infrastructure to support operations & maintenance, etc.

In this case it seems it doesn't include weapons, but in other cases it can. Depending on country, it may or may not exclude tax, & it may or may not include financing costs (fees & interest on loans).

You need to have a detailed cost breakdown before you can make a true comparison, & such breakdowns are rarely available.

 

[RobWilliams]

Looks like the A400M will not be capable to refuel helicopters in flight, this has caused France to look to purchase a number of examples of the C-130J for that capability.

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...21-la-france-va-acquerir-une-dizaine-de-c-130

A significant chunk of the acquisition cost will come out of Airbus' pocket as their CEO has pledged the company to cover part/all of the remedial cost for solutions to A400M delays.

The UK pretty recently upgraded 9 C-130Js with extended range fuel tanks.

EDIT: hearing from some quarters that the AdlA has denied this purchase is real.

 

[John Fedup]

Looks like the A400M will not be capable to refuel helicopters in flight, this has caused France to look to purchase a number of examples of the C-130J for that capability.

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...21-la-france-va-acquerir-une-dizaine-de-c-130

A significant chunk of the acquisition cost will come out of Airbus' pocket as their CEO has pledged the company to cover part/all of the remedial cost for solutions to A400M delays.

The UK pretty recently upgraded 9 C-130Js with extended range fuel tanks.

EDIT: hearing from some quarters that the AdlA has denied this purchase is real.

I recall reading that there was an issue with prop turbulence and helicopter re-fueling. Is this problem solvable?

 

[RobWilliams]

I recall reading that there was an issue with prop turbulence and helicopter re-fueling. Is this problem solvable?

That's exactly the issue, I have no idea if it's solvable but I don't think there's a whole lot they can do to change the wake of the propellers bar altering the design. I'm fairly sure that's also a concern with parachute drops if they're dropping in twin sticks.

 

[John Fedup]

That's exactly the issue, I have no idea if it's solvable but I don't think there's a whole lot they can do to change the wake of the propellers bar altering the design. I'm fairly sure that's also a concern with parachute drops if they're dropping in twin sticks.

I am thankful Canada went with a package of C-17s and C-130Js. Had the A400M program not been so delayed our politicians likely would have opted for a cheaper single plane solution and we would have 20-25 A400Ms that are inferior strategic lifters and can't refuel helicopters instead of what we lucked into. I guess P&W Canada's failure to be involved in the engine development saved us some grief too.

 

[RobWilliams]

France has denied that the C-130J program is based in reality, turns out it looks like it was an April Fool. Here's a source in French.

LEAD 2-La France dément vouloir acquérir des C130-J américains | Reuters

Seems like the Airbus response is that the A400M will have an AAR capability for helicopters and Airbus is going to bear the cost of making that happen.

 

[RobWilliams]

Cool concept being pushed by Sagem, they want their AASM to be able to be fitted to French C-130 aircraft.

Sagem looks to arm French C-130s with AASM - IHS Jane's 360

Sounds like a RoRo module in the cargo bay with the interface with two racks of 4 AASM total, those are in place of external fuel tanks.

Their current C-130 fleet is down to be replaced by the A400M.

 

[RobWilliams]

Despite the unfortunate events that have transpired recently, France is still using their A400M fleet operationally but only on "essential operations". These operations take the form of sustaining operations in Africa and Iraq. However it does make them the only air force to be currently using the A400M operationally.

France Flying A400M in 'Essential Operations'

Interestingly, the article describes how the French special forces are "keen" to try a fully tested and equipped aircraft. It further goes on to say that because they want to fly the A400M fast and low, they're looking at moving to train fighter pilots to fly the A400M.

 

[RobWilliams]

In a new twist, the French Govt has decided that a purchase of the C-130 might be on the cards after all, along with a selection of other kit, namely:

• 4 C-130 (either K or J) - 2 to be armed with Griffin and two to be tankers for helicopters + NVG sets note: a study has been launched, no decision taken, expected end of the year
• 7 more Tiger helicopters (total order = 67)
• 6 NH90 deliveries to be accelerated
• 3 of the last 12 MRTT deliveries to be accelerated
• 'Progress' on the planned FREMM-lite frigates
• Lafayette frigates to get sonars
• 1/3 of the funding (Germany with the other 2/3) for a 3rd satellite under the Musis program
• Planned order for an 'electromagnetic sensor' for their Reaper fleet to detect electromagnetic emissions
• +25 Talios LDP for Rafale/Mirage fleets
• A 4th 'multimission vessel' to be based at Reunion Island
• +1000 military/civilian staff for cyber defence

France Boosts Arms Spending, Eyes C-130 Buy

I'm impressed by the list, France has really been getting stuck in both in Iraq and taking the lead in Africa. This list of kit has been heavily driven by requirements identified during operations in Africa.

The French Air Force has declared IOC on their upgraded E-3 AWACs aircraft after completing testing and evaluation of their second upgraded aircraft.

France meets IOC milestone with second upgraded E-3 AWACS - 5/21/2015 - Flight Global

 

[swerve]

Because A400M is late, & the Transalls are wearing out.

 

[RobWilliams]

Not really.

If they want a bird armed, that ain't the A400M. If they want one that can tank helicopters then it's to do with the A400M supposedly not being able to do that yet.

Question of capability, not lack of airframes.

 

[swerve]

I said late - & for helicopter AAR, that capability is late on the A400M, & even if not late, they'd be short of aircraft to do it with because of late deliveries.

You have a point about Griffin on C-130, though. Presumably the French are looking at getting something armed & with long range & endurance for use in permissive environments - such as most of Africa. But it could still be impacted by late A400M deliveries. If it's seen as a stop-gap, I suppose they could fit it to a couple of the existing AdlA C-130s (bought years ago, to supplement the Transall with something longer-range) - if they can spare a couple, which they may not be able to until they have more A400M in service.

 

[RobWilliams]

It kinda puts Sagem putting C-130 AASM-armed concepts a few days ago into context, to me it seemed a bit out of the blue at the time.

 

[Waylander]

I like the idea. Operating some PGM armed transports out of Tschad should be a nice way of getting a long range/long endurance hitter into the safe air over most of their traditional West African hotspots.

 

[Ananda]

France launches pre-development of militarised H160 | Jane's 360

French seems will replace most of their Helicopters inventory and standardise with military version of H160 as common platform for all three braches if the armed forces.

 

[ngatimozart]

France launches pre-development of militarised H160 | Jane's 360

French seems will replace most of their Helicopters inventory and standardise with military version of H160 as common platform for all three braches if the armed forces.

Makes sense, but it's only a light helicopter, so what will they use for the heavy helicopter replacement? They already have the NH90 as their medium helicopter.

 

[Ananda]

They already have the NH90 as their medium helicopter.

If not mistaken they are using both NH90 and H225M Caracal as their medium helicopters. I don't see the French using any Heavy Helicopter in the class of Chinook or CH-53. Their most variants are in Light Helicopters that seems going to be standardise to H160.

 

[OPSSG]

If not mistaken they are using both NH90 and H225M Caracal as their medium helicopters. I don't see the French using any Heavy Helicopter in the class of Chinook or CH-53. Their most variants are in Light Helicopters that seems going to be standardise to H160.

On 15 July 2019, it was reported that France's special forces command says: "The air force is actively studying the acquisition of [CH-47s] for the French special forces. They would complete the current range of helicopters." Parts of the French military have long been keen on acquiring a heavy-lift capability. During the late 2000s Paris was engaged in a joint effort with Germany under the Future Transport Helicopter programme.

While the French are not users of the ubiquitous Chinook (as a heavy lift helicopter), they are considering the acquisition of CH-47Fs (before the production line closes — after the current contracts wind down in 2022/3). There are more than 900 Chinooks around the world, of which 542 are US aircraft — the latest FMS order of 10 CH-47Fs is from UAE. And the last French heavy lift, the SA321G Super Frelon, was retired on 30 April 2010.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Armée de l'Air is dead and gone, consigned to history. It on 11th September 2020 it became the Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace - The French Air and Space Force.

French Air Force changes name as it looks to the stars

The French Air Force has changed its name and its logo.

www.defensenews.com

 

[ngatimozart]

France has ordered 10 SF variants of the NH90TTH for its SPEC OPS Forces. These aircraft will be modified "... to allow special patrol insertion and extraction with a new, quick-removable leaf doors system and fast-rope beam. Side-mounted machine guns provide additional protection. In addition, various improvements will be made to the hold so that the back door can be used during flight and to enable personnel in the hold to see the optronic observation system video. As a complement to the existing equipment such as the M3M machine guns and external fuel tanks, other improvements serving the special forces and French army pilots include new-generation digital 3D mapping, folding boarding steps and additional ceiling-mounted rope anchor points." It will be interesting to see how successful Airbus will be with these modifications and delivering them on time and within budget.

France orders beefed-up NH90 choppers for special operations

An industry consortium led by Airbus is incorporating new features into the helicopter, meant to facilitate commando operations.

www.defensenews.com