French Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace News & Discussion

[RobWilliams]

A French Air Force A400M was forced to take off from an airfield in Africa. On the return leg the type experienced a major engine failure on the tarmac and was stuck, it was decided that a repair job would involve an engine change which would be too complex.

So they took off with 3 engines, according to the article it was not a take off mode validated on the aircraft type yet but - presumably - Airbus had data to back up what it could do. Otherwise that was a pretty major risk being made there.

A400M Atlas: Convoyage inédit sur 3 moteurs - Air et Cosmos

 

[John Fedup]

A French Air Force A400M was forced to take off from an airfield in Africa. On the return leg the type experienced a major engine failure on the tarmac and was stuck, it was decided that a repair job would involve an engine change which would be too complex.

So they took off with 3 engines, according to the article it was not a take off mode validated on the aircraft type yet but - presumably - Airbus had data to back up what it could do. Otherwise that was a pretty major risk being made there.

A400M Atlas: Convoyage inédit sur 3 moteurs - Air et Cosmos

I guess the decision for a three engine take off was easier for Airbus with the production end of the C-17. Given the cost of this aircraft and its troubled development, the last thing Airbus needs at this point is a major accident.

 

[StobieWan]

PFI makes sense when the private company is so much more efficient than the state that it can provide goods or services cheaper even after paying higher capital charges (the state can always borrow cheaper) & making a profit.

This tends to be true when the goods or services are things which the private supplier is expert in, & the state isn't. For example, I think that handing over the management of the Point class to a private firm was probably a good idea, as the RFA knows nothing about leasing out ships*.

But it's hard to see any advantage in the RAF - or even the AdlA, with its shorter history of AAR with a smaller fleet - handing over AAR to a private firm.


*But the only reason for having the private firm buy the ships & factor the price into its fee to the MoD was to push the state spending into the future at the cost of it being greater. And the same with the Voyager deal.

In a lot of cases, a well designed PFI is a bit like using shiny toilet paper - you're moving the problem around but not dealing with it directly. In the worse examples, they're hideous exercises in the government picking up the risk and the company the profit.

 

[KiwiRob]

Looks like the French have sold 24 Rafale and a few other goodies to the Egyptians.

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/artic...e-contrat-rafale_4573455_3234.html

 

[swerve]

Link didn't work, but I found it:

Egypt approves Rafale contract.

"Could be signed in the next few days."
24 Rafale, one FREMM, missiles. 5 billion Euros.

I'll wait for the official announcement.

 

[Feanor]

Looks like the French have sold 24 Rafale and a few other goodies to the Egyptians.

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/artic...e-contrat-rafale_4573455_3234.html

That's a serious breakthrough for the Rafale. With the Indian contract stalled they need all the export orders they can get.

 

[RobWilliams]

I'll wait too, however this is good news for Dassault if it comes through.

What the article doesn't describe however is how Egypt is currently trying to find a way to actually fund it and the belief is that Paris will be paying for a significant chunk through French loans.

The number thrown around for what Egypt can actually pay is ~15% IIRC.

Worthwhile though, France has squeezed their own Rafale procurement to the absolute bare minimum to keep the line going so additional production (i think 18 are new, 6 from current French stocks?) can only be good.

Plus the MBDA missile package which, supposedly, includes MICA, AASM and the SCALP ALCM if reports are to be believed.

 

[swerve]

Loans - plus guarantees from the Saudis or UAE?

 

[RobWilliams]

I'd be interested on the UAE's take on it, they wanted to offload their M2000's to Egypt as recently as a month ago and Egypt seemed they they were going for it at one point supposedly.

Still, good for Dassault anyway. Can't imagine the EAF is particularly unhappy about it either.

 

[swerve]

If the reports are correct about 24 Rafales, they aren't going to replace all the ancient aircraft in the inventory. There's still room for some Mirage 2000s. Maybe three types altogether - Rafale, F-16, Mirage 2000, after all the antiques have been disposed of.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

If the reports are correct about 24 Rafales, they aren't going to replace all the ancient aircraft in the inventory. There's still room for some Mirage 2000s. Maybe three types altogether - Rafale, F-16, Mirage 2000, after all the antiques have been disposed of.

Agree, anyway it is good news for France and specially for Dassault-Breguet Aviation fantastic news, after all these years finally an export costumer. I really hope they will sign the contract soon.

(incomplete article in English Egypt to Buy 24 Rafale Combat Jets - WSJ)

 

[KiwiRob]

I'll wait too, however this is good news for Dassault if it comes through.

It's good news Egypt signed yesterday.

France clinches first foreign sale of Rafale jets with Egypt contract

 

[STURM]

What the article doesn't describe however is how Egypt is currently trying to find a way to actually fund it and the belief is that Paris will be paying for a significant chunk through French loans.

There is the possibility that funds will be provided by Saudi as reward to the Egyptian military for clamping down on the Muslim Brotherhood. If I recall correctly, there was a report not too long ago of Saudi offering to shore up the Egyptian economy in case U.S. aid (reward for signing Camp David) was blocked due to the coup.

 

[RobWilliams]

It's good news Egypt signed yesterday.

France clinches first foreign sale of Rafale jets with Egypt contract

That is good news then, it also appears that reports that they're being exported with SCALP (or rather, Black Shaheen)

Rafale ; comment l'Egypte va payer ? | L'Opinion

Seems like it'll be a 16/8 split for single/twin seater versions. The first 3 will come fresh of the line soon.

 

[pkcasimir]

There is the possibility that funds will be provided by Saudi as reward to the Egyptian military for clamping down on the Muslim Brotherhood. If I recall correctly, there was a report not too long ago of Saudi offering to shore up the Egyptian economy in case U.S. aid (reward for signing Camp David) was blocked due to the coup.

This "sale" will come back to haunt France. Egypt does not have the money for this deal and won't have in the foreseeable future. To clinch the deal, the French government had to arrange for a French bank to loan Egypt the 15% down payment required. Then, the French government had to arrange for Coface, the French export guarantee department, to insure the bank should Egypt default on the payment. Having to borrow the money for the down payment doesn't bode well for repayment on the principle of the loan.
The Gulf States are planning to deposit $10 billion in a fund to support Egyptian investment. However, these funds are designed to support Egypt's serious problems in feeding its people and fueling its industry. Egypt imports over 40% of its food and 60% of its wheat and its energy policy is a mess resulting in declining production of natural gas and increasing imports of oil to provide subsidized fuelto its people. Blackouts are quite frequent.
Egypt can't afford these jets and France, a rapidly declining second rate power with a stagnant economy and massive unemployment, can't afford to subsidize the purchase.

 

[KiwiRob]

24 aircraft isn't that big a fleet, surely there will be significantly more aircraft ordered down the road, Egypt has a lot of older types.

 

[RobWilliams]

Egypt officially signs for 24 Rafales, FREMM frigate, and missiles - IHS Jane's 360

The contract has been signed with the total value to be $5.2 billion, half of which is being supplied by French banks

The plan is 3 by August this year with rumours of 6 by the end of the year.

MBDA have clammed up about specifics but it's still believed they'll be supplied with MICA, AASM and Black Shaheen. It's unknown if Meteor would come into the fold in the future.

 

[swerve]

5.2 billion Euros, $5.9 bn.

 

[John Fedup]

5.2 billion Euros, $5.9 bn.

Assuming the missiles and FREMM frigate account for 2 billion, the Rafale unit cost would be 162m each. That should silence the F-35 critics in Canada that think the Rafale should be a contender for our fighter replacement program.

 

[Waylander]

As always, nobody has an idea what these deals include.

We have seen fighter prices being quoted without the engine as this would be another deal just as we have seen aquisitions which included huge training, infrastructure, weapon and lifecicle cost packages.

That's not to say that the Rafale would be indeed more expensive than full rate production F-35As.