Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

[John Fedup]

@Novascotiaboy ..regarding the Canadian government and Vance’s mess, totally agree. I simply can’t agree on the Gripen as a fighter choice even for a tier 2 fleet. I don’t know what a fully tricked out Gripen would cost if built in Sweden but I am guessing well above the half value of a F-35. If Bombardier were to build them, the cost WILL be higher. For the sake of getting more jets, we get an alternative with less range, less, payload, no stealth, and no advanced sensor fusion. Even as a short term stopgap and perhaps partnering on future euro projects, it is a questionable choice.

Saab is mentioned as a possible partner in the UK’s Tempest project. For Canada this may be more viable than joining the French-German-Spanish project. Placing a Gripen order for a big role in Tempest seems attractive but that’s not unlike our investment in the JSF program. We may piss away money and then some future junior may run away from ordering anything and we are stuck using obsolete Gripen for the next 40 years. The other option is partnering with the Japanese now that Mitsubishi owns Bombardier’s regional jet business. Add in submarine collaboration and that could be interesting.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

OPSSG with all due respect the way things are done here military wise will make you think we are all crazy. Canada’s entire military needs to be rights sized for all three branches and coordinated instead of the three independent silos that they are. Cold War thinking permeates the whole force.

We have at best a token force to contribute to any operation.

Two CC150 MRTT and six KC130H tankers isn’t going to sustain much of an operation even if they were all available.

80 km south of Victoria BC is NAS Whidbey Island with more Super Hornets than we have operational F18 classics. Our F18s are located in north east Alberta and no where land Central Quebec. Far and away from any adversary. If we do deploy a combat force it will be a six pack at most although we did provide a full squadron of 24 to the first gulf war.

We have 12 surface combatants. 7 east and five west. Looking at the Halifax base there is lots of scaffolding on at least three. Two are deployed or about to deploy overseas. No support ship and maybe a single submarine but I haven’t seen it to know it’s here. Maybe it’s submerged. Lol.

There is no regular force Army presence west of the Rocky Mountains. Major army bases are in Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick. Nine battalions total. 40 deployable Leopard 2s. No organic naval transport capability to move army equipment. No SHORADS since the Javelin, ADATS and Blowpipes were retired. 35 mm Orelikons stored somewhere. One off Textron TAPVs bought by us and no one else when we could have had Bushmasters or anything else. The list goes on.

The public concern for defence in this country is NIL. in Singapore you have a far different political and defence thought process.

The F35 debacle is all about political face saving. In all reality the cost of the aircraft won’t matter because of the industrial offsets which will double the cost to the taxpayer.

A look at the acquisition of COTS trucks to replace the Bombardier built M35s is an example worth noting. These International Workstar trucks were bought for domestic use never to be deployed yet during recent exercises in Norway what can you see departing a landing craft but a flat deck International. Why has this happened? Because everything else is clapped out and the new MILSPEC Kerax isn’t inservice in numbers yet. And just a note about the Kerax. For a truck that was supposed to be assembled in Quebec I see some lot of them being flat decked out of Halifax headed out of province.

With an election coming in the fall there will be little defence discussion in this country. Once the dust has settled we will get down to studying every procurement project until the next election so we can kick the projects down the road yet again.

Yep I am a jaded man. I grew up in a military family. Listened to the stories told around the kitchen table of men now mostly gone, my father included, many who rose to general rank in the reserve army militia of eastern Canada.

In my time the only CDS that has made a difference and left a mark on the military was Rick Hillier. Oh how we could use his leadership today. And surprisingly he was a liberal appointment.

 

[Calculus]

RFP for new fighters released today: Feds launch official request for CF-18 replacement jets

 

[Long range]

Apparently the evaluation is 60% capability 20% cost and 20% economic we probably won't know how many bidders will participate for a while.if Lockheed loses there will probably be legal action based on Trudeau saying he wouldn't buy the f35 if the Boeing clause is used or Canada picks a European plane and the Americans veto it saying it's not 2 eye's compatible there will probably be a lawsuit if Boeing wins it will be a unpopular choice domestically after the bombardier tarrifs and if the f35 wins Trudeau will have broken a campaign promise .this should have been a short simple process and it's currently a long dragged out mess

 

[Todjaeger]

Apparently the evaluation is 60% capability 20% cost and 20% economic we probably won't know how many bidders will participate for a while.if Lockheed loses there will probably be legal action based on Trudeau saying he wouldn't buy the f35 if the Boeing clause is used or Canada picks a European plane and the Americans veto it saying it's not 2 eye's compatible there will probably be a lawsuit if Boeing wins it will be a unpopular choice domestically after the bombardier tarrifs and if the f35 wins Trudeau will have broken a campaign promise .this should have been a short simple process and it's currently a long dragged out mess

Not to be harsh or anything, but it does sound rather like the CH-124 Sea King and CH-113 Labrador replacement debacle...

 

[Long range]

A best case scenario is everyone dropping out except for the f35 it should take about a hour to negotiate the deal as a jsf partner the f35 price is set on which block u want in what year u purchase the aircraft after that it's all about infrastructure how many hangers and mission planning centers do u want and where do u want them the economic benifets are on bid so u don't have to negotiate that common sense should take over and realize that building f35 parts in Canada will require less shipping costs and a stable supply chain compared to some other countries so that we will do ok in economic benifets the biggest thing we have to negotiate is what radio frequencies we want and if we need drag chutes for artic operations I am still not opposed to a mixed fleet if it makes sense but if we are buying one fighter type for everything the f35 is the only way to go

 

[ngatimozart]

@Long range that's far to logical for Canadian pollies, DND bureaucracy and Public Works. Therefore it is an impossibility. I would say that pigs had a better chance of flying but twice I shared an aircraft with a certain Kiwi prime minister, since deceased.

 

[Calculus]

More detail on RFP here: Fighter jet RFP released - Skies Mag

And an interesting perspective on the competition from a former CF Hornet pilot: The Rubik's Cube of fighter procurement - Skies Mag

 

[ASSAIL]

More detail on RFP here: Fighter jet RFP released - Skies Mag

And and interesting perspective on the competition from a former CF Hornet pilot: The Rubik's Cube of fighter procurement - Skies Mag

I think that’s a very long winded and politically correct way of extolling the virtues of the F35 as the future for the RCAF.
When a choice is so blindingly obvious the obfuscation to get there is astounding.

 

[ngatimozart]

I think that’s a very long winded and politically correct way of extolling the virtues of the F35 as the future for the RCAF.
When a choice is so blindingly obvious the obfuscation to get there is astounding.

Ah but we are talking about our Canadian cousins here, where logic and the obvious are mortal sins and against their religion when it comes to defence procurement. Think it's their first or second commandment.

 

[John Fedup]

A decision is to be made in 2022....WTF!!! After dicking around with this file for almost 10 years these fools need over 2 years to make a decision? One would think that other than actual cost, most other factors should be well known by now and two plus years to reach a decision is too long.

 

[ngatimozart]

A decision is to be made in 2022....WTF!!! After dicking around with this file for almost 10 years these fools need over 2 years to make a decision? One would think that other than actual cost, most other factors should be well known by now and two plus years to reach a decision is too long.

Haven't you guys got an election coming up shortly? Anyway see my post immediately above.

 

[John Fedup]

The election is in October. Our election process is as vulnerable to foreign interference as the US is, perhaps more so. Who would Putin prefer, an incompetent flake like junior or an unknown? Guessing he prefers the existing POS who might still manage to derail the only proper fighter choice, the F35.

 

[Long range]

With the evaluation system the way it is 60% capability 20% cost and 20% economic offsets it's very possible that super hornet or gripen wins it their probably the cheapest to buy and maintain and Boeing and Saab will provide 100% offsets I'm guessing our neighbors down south will veto the European bids on 2 eye's compatibility so I guess we'll see if Trudeau has the stomach to select Boeing after the c series tarrifs , upcoming is the northern warning system replacement and the issue of bmd that's probably not going to be a smooth process either

 

[Vulcan]

Don't personally see Gripen having a snowballs chance. Doesn't have the right politics behind it and it's incredibly short-legged for such a large country without many tankers.

Still see this as a long bluff and F-35 will be picked regardless. Nobody wants to buy 4th gen aircraft if they can squeeze the budget out to buy 5th gen, it ends up being cheaper in the longer term as the threats increase.

 

[the concerned]

We all know common sense should have the F-35 wrap this competition up. I don't want to fall foul of the comparing of platforms but I have always wondered why Canada has never looked into the advanced F-15 variants that are about. Surely at this rate it will outlast the typhoon,Rafael and f-18e with production runs also does it offer a better range than all the others.

 

[ngatimozart]

We all know common sense should have the F-35 wrap this competition up. I don't want to fall foul of the comparing of platforms but I have always wondered why Canada has never looked into the advanced F-15 variants that are about. Surely at this rate it will outlast the typhoon,Rafael and f-18e with production runs also does it offer a better range than all the others.

Costs, pure and simple. Costs a lot to procure, operate and sustain compared to the F-18, F-16 and Gripen.

 

[John Fedup]

Costs, pure and simple. Costs a lot to procure, operate and sustain compared to the F-18, F-16 and Gripen.

...AND it is 4th Gen as well.

 

[John Fedup]

With the evaluation system the way it is 60% capability 20% cost and 20% economic offsets it's very possible that super hornet or gripen wins it their probably the cheapest to buy and maintain and Boeing and Saab will provide 100% offsets I'm guessing our neighbors down south will veto the European bids on 2 eye's compatibility so I guess we'll see if Trudeau has the stomach to select Boeing after the c series tarrifs , upcoming is the northern warning system replacement and the issue of bmd that's probably not going to be a smooth process either

IMHO, the 60% capability and 20% cost parameters favours a F-35 selection. The Typhoon costs more and still doesn’t have AESA in production and field proven. Gripen comes up short on capability leaving the SH as the only alternative. As a 4th Gen, it comes up short on capability and it’s cost advantage will be minimal. Lots not forget Boeing’s tariff actions against Bombardier haven’t been forgotten either. As for offsets, with Turkey’s exit from the JSF program, LM can offer new bid opportunities for Canadian aerospace suppliers.

 

[J_Can]

IMHO, the 60% capability and 20% cost parameters favours a F-35 selection. The Typhoon costs more and still doesn’t have AESA in production and field proven. Gripen comes up short on capability leaving the SH as the only alternative. As a 4th Gen, it comes up short on capability and it’s cost advantage will be minimal. Lots not forget Boeing’s tariff actions against Bombardier haven’t been forgotten either. As for offsets, with Turkey’s exit from the JSF program, LM can offer new bid opportunities for Canadian aerospace suppliers.

Boeing did Canadian industry dirty but that is business, its just warfare by other means. Bombardier dug its own grave with poor mismanagement, they have done more to destroy what was left of the Canadian aerospace industry than Boeing could have ever done. At least Viking Air is bringing back the De Havilland Canada brand back without government subsidies. Bombardier relied completely on the QC provincial &the federal government for bail outs left and right since the 1990's. Only now is Bombardier refocusing their brand and stream lining their production portfolio, but at what cost? The C-Series, Q400, Downsview, composite production/ IP, water bombers, light rail; all the pride of Canadian R&D and production. Which is going up in smoke because of a company that relied utterly on the government to fix their own self made problems.

My two cents worth about fighter jet procurement is that we should go with the F-15X and piggy back off the USAF and wait out for the newer sixth gen aircraft. I always see policy documents stress the need for a multi-role aircraft, but realistic we need an air dominance fighter. It uses the F-15 Strike Eagle air frame, so it can be largely carry what that aircraft does. Almost every foreseeable air to ground op we could get ourselves into would be discretionary. That or the flag goes up and then we would be in the fight of our life in the high arctic intercepting Russian assets over the pole. I personal just do not see Canada making a smart policy choice by buying F-35, were not going be sending our aircraft overseas alone. If the western alliance maintains it will be in partnership if we deploy our fast jets, and if not my point stands.

In short our aircraft need to be focused on the air dominance role to insure Canadian sovereignty on the North American continent, they must be able to go the range, and then be able to fight at range, before returning home to established southern bases. I think the F-35 is amazing aircraft but it is a multi-role aircraft with compromises throughout the air frame. The F-15X has compromises but that comes down to level of stealth, not in its ability to insure air dominance.