Adding a ramp is probably easier than removing one that has been designed into the ship. Also, I kind of like our latent naval aviation capability.
HMS Invincible -
The ramp on HMS Hermes was further forward, extending to the edge of the original deck. I think it was easier to do that than on the Invincibles, because Hermes had a carrier flight deck, full width & right to the bow.
The Italian carriers have both been built with ski-jumps designed in, but on Cavour it looks rather like that on Invincible. Giuseppe Garibaldi has a more neatly integrated ski-jump. Both Italian carriers - Cavour in the foreground.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Launching on Italian Navy new Frigates Paolo Thaon di Revel. Interesting design, but for me, I don't know..not really catching up yet..but interesting and bit more futuristic.
Well maybe like Jeremy Clarkson said when talking about Alfa or other Italian Cars in old Top Gear or Grand Tour..you must feel the ''soul' and 'art' of it, before you appreciate an Italian design..
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40 deg south
Well-Known Member
What the ??
Launching on Italian Navy new Frigates Paolo Thaon di Revel. Interesting design, but for me, I don't know..not really catching up yet..but interesting and bit more futuristic.
Well maybe like Jeremy Clarkson said when talking about Alfa or other Italian Cars in old Top Gear or Grand Tour..you must feel the ''soul' and 'art' of it, before you appreciate an Italian design..
Can any of our naval enthusiasts try explain the thinking behind the design?
It is surely the strangest-looking bow I have ever seen.
Good find, Ananda.
Well, the Italian navy has a slightly different opinion on the ski-jump timeline. Always has. No mention was made before the launch for political reasons, but the ski-jump design was finalised after the data from last year's embarked trials in QUEEN ELIZABETH.
Two photos attached showing TRIESTE getting the F-35B treatment. Photo source unknown - they appeared in social media yesterday but the I have no idea whose they are.
Attachments
I saw them in another forum in a a post by "Eaglespotters"
Increase fuel efficiency by decreasing drag caused by the bow cutting through the water would be my guess.
Similar to bulbous bows, but...razor bows.
The F-35B element of CAVOUR's big refit is about to begin.
Quote below from a good report, worth reading just forr the update.
" In the coming months, some of the most important technical interventions will be carried out on board the aircraft, including the careening and metallization of the flight deck, necessary to limit the thermodynamic impacts when the F-35B will take off and land.
In the spring of 2020, the Cavour aircraft carrier will face a preparatory training period for the next departure for the United States in the summer of the same year, where it will conduct some tests with the F-35B aircraft on board."
Article here Italy's Cavour aircraft carrier starts F-35B modification work - Naval News
Quote below from a good report, worth reading just forr the update.
" In the coming months, some of the most important technical interventions will be carried out on board the aircraft, including the careening and metallization of the flight deck, necessary to limit the thermodynamic impacts when the F-35B will take off and land.
In the spring of 2020, the Cavour aircraft carrier will face a preparatory training period for the next departure for the United States in the summer of the same year, where it will conduct some tests with the F-35B aircraft on board."
Article here Italy's Cavour aircraft carrier starts F-35B modification work - Naval News
Just to update the above post, CAVOUR's refit is close to completion. Credible Italian media reports said the F-35B work was done on time, and all is well. Ship due to return to fleet in March, followed by post-refit trials, rectification and work-ups for deployment to US east coast in second half of the year for F-35B trials (personnel have been at NAS Patuxent River since last July).
As a bonus, attached is a recent pic of the LHD TRIESTE, taken when under tow from one fitting-out wharf to another.
As a bonus, attached is a recent pic of the LHD TRIESTE, taken when under tow from one fitting-out wharf to another.
Attachments
The Italian Navy has replaced the 4 Soldati class GP frigates with 4 GP FREMMs. Now they need 8 ASW FREMMs in order to replace the 8 Maestrale class ASW frigates. They have replaced 4 of them so far. They need 4 more. They will sell the 2 GP FREMMs (currently in construction) to Egypt and will buy 2 more ASW FREMMs (as they should). But still, they need 2 more ASW FREMMs in order to replace the entire Maestrale class. So, my question is:
Where are those 2 extra ships?
Unless ofc they are planning to replace those 2 last Maestrale frigates with some EPCs or PPAs. But that sounds... strange?
Any ideas?
Where are those 2 extra ships?
Unless ofc they are planning to replace those 2 last Maestrale frigates with some EPCs or PPAs. But that sounds... strange?
Any ideas?
As a note on this older post: Fincantieri first trialed this bow design on a frigate-sized 35-knot fast ferry built in 2006.That is definitely an artistic new bow design.
Not only an Italian first, but a world first I would think !
There won't be two extra ships.
Italy is in the process of downsizing its military from 190,000 men in 2014 to currently 166,000 and further on to 150,000 men in 2024. The navy itself is shrinking by about 20% in manpower in this decade-long process (from about 31,000 to under 25,000) and is reducing hull numbers to accomodate this.
The strategic concept for the navy was last revised last year and can be found here (in Italian). Excerpts below translated from that source.
Page 39 states the intended fleet capability requirements (to be etablished 2019-2034):
- an aircraft carrier group for power projection, with 3D escort group and integrated supply.
- an amphibious group consisting of 4 ships, including one larger command ship.
- high seas patrol group consisting of 10 frigates and 15 patrol ships and boats.
- airborne defense of the fleet using F-35B.
- air defense using 4 destroyers with BMD capability.
- strategic airlift to support the fleet using tilt-rotor aircraft and heavy helicopters, sea- and land-based.
- airborne maritime patrol, sea- and land-based, including with unmanned systems.
- logistics support group consisting of 4 ships capable of support submarines, including one equipped for submarine rescue and one providing C2 for the mine countermeasures squadron.
- deep strike capability embarked on frigates, destroyers and submarines (i.e. land-attack cruise missiles)
- underwater warfare group consisting of 8 submarines with AIP equipped
Existing units / Procurement completed:
- 1 aircraft carrier (= Cavour)
- 4 destroyers (= 2 Horizon + 2 Durand de la Penne) - replacement for Durand de la Penne not planned out yet though...
- 2 special operations rapid insertion craft (= 2 Cabrini) - procured in 2019/20
- 10 frigates (= 10 FREMM) - 6 GP + 4 ASW planned previously
- 4 amphibious units (= Trieste + 3 future LPDs)
- 7 medium OPVs (= 7 PPA) - with widely varying equipment...
- 8 light OPVs (= 8 EPC)
- 8 submarines (= 4 U212A + 4 U212 NFS) - 2 NFS only options so far
- 1 submarine support/rescue vessel (= USSP) - project has been in the books for a decade, continuously pushed back
- 3 support ships (= 3 Vulcano) - only two bought so far as direct replacement for Stromboli
- 12 mine countermeasures vessels (not further defined so far, also not really in above capability set)
- 1 submarine/minehunter support/command vessel (= LRSSS, no project yet)
- 2 intelligence units (also not further defined
I just saw that the Soldati class frigate was not actually a frigate. It was a large OPV. So Italy needs:
8 ASW FREMMs to replace 8 Maestrale frigates
14 OPVs to replace 14 old ones of various types
Instead, they are planning for:
4 GP Frigates (2 will go to Egypt) + 6 ASW Frigates (they will build 2 more). 10 total
7 PPAs + 8 EPCs. 15 total
So they are actually upsizing (+2 frigates, +1 opv). Downsizing will probably happen in command centers etc, but the fleet is growing! New vessels obviously require smaller crews.
8 ASW FREMMs to replace 8 Maestrale frigates
14 OPVs to replace 14 old ones of various types
Instead, they are planning for:
4 GP Frigates (2 will go to Egypt) + 6 ASW Frigates (they will build 2 more). 10 total
7 PPAs + 8 EPCs. 15 total
So they are actually upsizing (+2 frigates, +1 opv). Downsizing will probably happen in command centers etc, but the fleet is growing! New vessels obviously require smaller crews.
You seem to be conveniently forgetting some ships in the count. The 25 ships for the group replace 28 ships (8 Maestrale, 4 Soldati, 6 Commandi/Sirio, 8 Minerva and 4 Cassiopea).
Manning numbers for the ships were about 4200 for the old ships and will be about 3500-3600 for the new ships, i.e. per-unit a near-equal 96% of the old levels.
The only thing that rises is tonnage, which roughly doubles for the ships.
Manning numbers for the ships were about 4200 for the old ships and will be about 3500-3600 for the new ships, i.e. per-unit a near-equal 96% of the old levels.
The only thing that rises is tonnage, which roughly doubles for the ships.
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The PPA is very large for an OPV, & the full model has the sensors & weapons of a frigate. The light is fitted out as a heay OPV & for but not with frigate level weaponry, & light+ somewhere between.
I'm not sure how many will be built. I recall talk of 16 when the class was first mooted, but the last I heard 7 had been ordered plus 3 options, & a while ago there was talk of changing the options to ASW ships, perhaps smaller.
I'm not sure how many will be built. I recall talk of 16 when the class was first mooted, but the last I heard 7 had been ordered plus 3 options, & a while ago there was talk of changing the options to ASW ships, perhaps smaller.
Italy has since joined the EU PESCO European Patrol Corvette project, for which it has the lead - and Fincantieri basically has a design in its drawers. The future Italian navy concept linked above - dated November 2019 - calls for 7 "medium patrol ships" (PPA) and 8 "light patrol ships" (EPC).
The sixteen number was from the previous 2014 concept, overhauled with the 2019 version. The 3 options from the previous order would have to be exercised before mid-2021, and will likely be dropped.
The main difference between "Light" and "Light+" is that the latter will have the 16-cell Sylver VLS and associated consoles in the CIC fitted. "Full" switches to a proper active phased-array radar and adds ASW equipment and anti-ship missiles.
There was some discussion in Italian defense media a few years ago whether the "Full" version could be seen as a possible replacement for the Durand de la Penne destroyers.
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By Fincantieri having a design in its drawers do you mean this?
Fincantieri | Multirole Corvette
The first of the Qatari version (Doha class) is in the water.
Fincantieri | Multirole Corvette
The first of the Qatari version (Doha class) is in the water.
That on Fincantieri's side, Gowind 2500 on Naval Group's side. From a requirements perspective the two are pretty much the same, and the Gowind design seems pretty open to "adaption" anyway. Shouldn't be that hard for their joint venture Naviris to just mix them up to make up for the differences, apply the higher automatisation of Gowind and the ffbnw growth concept of PPA and you have a product.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
New ships, submarines and weapon systems for Italian Navy - Naval News
Here are the first details on Italy's new shipbuilding and joint/naval weapon system programs.
www.navalnews.com
Article on Naval News on the Italian Navy future posture. I find it interesting that for the next Air Defence Destroyers as replacement for Durant De LaPenne class, they choose to goes with new Design, rather than continuation of the Two Orizonte class. I thought they still will be moving with Orizonte design as it's similar based with what UK and French use.
Anyway the DDX design is larger than Orizonte and from the cut away equip by 64 VLS compared to Orizonte 48. For Long Range anti air missile, they will stick with Aster 30. However seems they're also studying CAAM ER to replace Aster 15 as medium SAM.
1 Carrier, 1 LHD, 3 LPD, 4 AAW Destroyers, 10 FREMM, 15 Large Patrol vessels (7 PPA and 8 large patrol/OPV), 8 Submarine and 12 MCV.
Still maintain respectable fleet for Mediterranean.
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